This is perhaps the last chance for "Discussion"

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Peregrine said:
I am being told by a few users that Outerheaven is on QCDN post restriction due to recent events. That somewhat understandable move would explain their silence on both the flame board and this topic. Once the dust settles from these suspensions, which I think are still very important for the public to hear about, maybe they will come back to the table and...renegotiate is a bad term for it, but let's just say renegotiate.

damn it Kat now its out there plz don't stay with the cheats and crap your Rep up : : we lost kat now NOOOOEZZ!
 
graydaze said:
I'm not saying Pree's right or wrong in what he's doing. I'm not saying OH cheats/doesn't cheat.

Saying we're skirting the issue by incorporating real life/windower into the thread makes it seem like your flame posts. If its not specifically what you want, you don't want it in the thread.

If I'm looking stubborn by stating my point of view, then everyone should be stubborn. You cannot honestly have a discussion covering all game cheats without incorporating windower.


Graydaze, I like that you're sticking to your guns, but I think it's been made pretty clear that what is called for here is a discussion of the fleebot reporting. If you'd like to discuss all game modifiers including windower, you should make the new thread. Your first paragraph makes it clear that you are not addressing what Peregrine set up here, which is not, as the last bit I quoted states, a discussion covering all game cheats.

Please let this conversation happen; I find it very interesting. If this is not possible for you, then I'd appeal to one of the GD mods to split this thread so that Graydaze and anyone interested can discuss 3rd party use in its entirety, and those interested can discuss the fleebot issue raised.

I've been interested in tracking down a fleebot program simply because I travel across large zones a LOT, and I frankly am somewhat annoyed at SE for a fairly obvious ploy to keep people logged in longer. I haven't pursued this seriously yet because I am not sure how I feel about even the advantage of crossing a zone quickly.
 
Valoran said:
I've been interested in tracking down a fleebot program simply because I travel across large zones a LOT, and I frankly am somewhat annoyed at SE for a fairly obvious ploy to keep people logged in longer. I haven't pursued this seriously yet because I am not sure how I feel about even the advantage of crossing a zone quickly.

Airships/public transportation, Chocobos, teleports, warps, outposts, thief-flee, chocobo mazurka, hermes quenchers, equipment with movement speed +

There are so many legitimate ways to travel fast. Combinations of any of the above make travelling the world relatively fast. The only reason to have a flee program is for cheating purposes.
 
Peregrine said:
I don't know. OH is on post restriction. Chitchat about the windower won't do any good. Discussion about the use of fleetooling on quetza might.

I think the problem you're bumping in to is that most people who came here to comment one way or the other on here don't/wouldn't/haven't used the flee hack. If you're after someone in particular or a group at large in the aim of getting a response this is gonna hit the FB in a heartbeat. Aside from that you've got everyone behind you for the most part, i'd revel in the moment while you have it, were i you. :)
 
I think the main problem with the crusade against fleetools/claim bots is the fact that the majority of us are breaking ToS. As I type this, I am in windower mode. I can honestly go as far as to justify them in my mind as to why most of the plugins are harmless.

The TP plugin: Another char can spam chat logs to display their TP. With enough experience playing with various jobs one already gets an estimate of when someone might have 100% or close to it.

EXP Plugin: This can be done on pen and paper.

Skilling up: Saves one from future trips to the doctor for athritis of the hands and does not in any way efect anyone other than themselves. The first time that I heard of these skill up bots I was dumbfounded that they were used. And then I gave it some thought and consideration and realized it does not effect anyone else but the person using it. But generally though, I would assume that these skills are attained via mashing multiple macros.

(Gateway drugs, so to speak.)

The arguements I've been hearing from people that condone the use of the speedhacking is "It saves time..."-- That's the best arguement I've heard.

The arguements of "I'm not using the speedhack, so it's ok! I'm only benifiting from them using it, so it doesn't matter." That's not okay to me.

The problem is.. where do we draw the line? And where do we draw the line to where we're not a hypocrite as well? Graydaze, you pose a very good arguement to this subject. What is considered acceptable? To me, the reason I can justify the plugins verses speedhacking/claim botting is it has an impact on everyone and not just the individual. In all honesty, it is not going to matter much (on a large scale) that a paladin has maxed his enhancing magic. Yes, his protectra might last a bit longer on whom he casts upon but it is not going to have a large impact on a win or a loss.

When you give a paladin, a white mage, or any other job "flee" you're changing the game play all together. You've ultimately put the game genie on in a multi-player game-- and that's not fair to everyone around you. It's easy to say that "It's wrong to use these cheats." What is hard is figuring out what exactly to do to combat it. You don't make many friends on crusades. You often don't make many friends standing by your convictions. You have a group of people who find it to be "Okay!" and another group who find it to be soiling the integrity of the game. Pere might be targeting OH in this. OH is honestly the only group that I have seen be so blatently obvious about it.

...and people don't care. It is those who don't that are what are so much more dangerous than those doing the crime. We learn to look away. We learn to bite our tongue. And then we begin to wonder... is everyone else doing it? I know I was sceptical of the windower when it came out, and now I cannot seem to play without it. I can only wonder what this server will be like in a few months down the line and whether or not we will even want to play.
 
I mod character and equipment sprites in the game, I mod my icons so theyre not generic but actually tell me what effects I have on me when I glance at them. I mod my maps so I dont have to have ffxi's atlas next to me or page through NM databases on allakhazam or spend 40 minutes googling +"???" +"eastern altepa" +wtf is this? Does that help me if I havent quested the map yet? no. Is it any better than the pink dots of limited notation SE put in the game? definitely. I also use windower. Why? Because I'm running a dual core SLi equipped desktop with a 20.1" monitor and ill be DAMNED if im going to let SE dictate that I can only use 5% of my computer because they were too lazy or incompetent to build their game securely for the multi-platform release they had planned.
Taking over your entire computer system instead of building a secure client for an MMO borders on the criminal. I use Tparty. Why? because I play with no sounds except winamp, because melees cant be expected to announce TP with any notice long enough for a summoner to magic burst off their skillchain, because some melees macro in weapon switches or equipment switches and SE's shoddy programming (again) chooses not to display that the weaponskill has gone off at all, doesnt show the skillchain animation, or even display the skillchain notice and damage.

xpwatch. I use this too. It keeps me from opening status to see how much TNL i'm at and gives me a vague idea (its not that accurate) of how much xp/hr im pulling in, and how long I can expect to be killing this same mob over and over before I ding. (which allows me to anticipate when im going to get sick of it, and need to go do something else.)

I also use a parser (gathers and interprets the logs FFXI keeps of everything that scrolls down your screen in battle). Parsers dont need windower to work, I can run it after the game closes even, but it helps bolster that false sense of self-accomplishment and achievement we're all here getting from FFXI. Our MMO fix as it were, by showing me how much i'm actually contributing to the party, and helps me refine my playing style, even against the conventional wisdom, so that I can be the best <job> I can be. Usually though it just reminds me that MNK's do insane damage, or War's or whatever melee still out DD's the "OMG NERF THE BLM" by 500+ damage per fight.

All those things someone would call "cheats." Do they make me better at the game? Probably. Do they make me better than any normal player who doesnt use these "cheats" and instead just clutters the floor by them with every SE or bradygames purchased item, and stares intently at the game like a zombie until their brains ooze out of their ears and they end up making a headline like "California teen dies today after playing FFXI for 3 weeks straight"? No. and theres the rub. These tools are conveniences that allow a FFXI player to be both good at their game, and not so focused on it that they can no longer see reality anymore. For the vast majority of ffxi players the issue ends up being bad players afk at keyboard or d/cing when they decide theyve had enough, or not playing to the best of their skill because they cant focus intently enough to play by SE's shoddy game mechanics.

Gilbuyers. Heres another cheat, and one I dont indulge in, but from the JP point of view is this. You can farm crawlers for silk thread, or camp HNM's all day, but if youre not earning more gil/hr than you can buy with RL money from working a job then youre wasting your time. Several 日本人 i've talked to mention that they'll make more working a job, then they pay for money in the game, so for the same time and sometimes less effort (some of their "jobs" I would prefer over several leisure activities) they can have A) anything they want in game, and B) spending cash. Its against the ToS... but to be honest most players in the game havent read the ToS, or give 2 shits about it until they need to attack something and then they only parrot things other people have said. Why do we as a server care about gilbuying? Economy. Gilbuyers have a proven market effect of causing inflation since they dont have to earn the gil in game they dont have any appreciation of its ingame value. To most of them, gil itself has no value other than as a medium of exchange for what they want in equipment, and the equipment's value is dictated by the RL exchange rate they get for yen-> gil. So I oppose gilbuying not because its cheating, but because it adversely effects the economy of the game for those of us who are unwilling, or unable to RMT.

Fleetool, warphack, mrargus, scripts, bots, etc. None of these things rely on windower. Most of them make advantage of windower's existence but only because its more convenient to do so than hook the window themselves. Would the banning of windower (and by this I mean an active and reactive campaign against it which would probably be impossible anyway) stop the use of hack tools such as these? no. The programmers would simply find a way (and would be persuing different methods than the people over at windower's site and thus causing double the work for the SE team hypothetically assigned to it) to hook the window themselves in order to get their tools to work. Barring that they would simply make the tool usable without windower by cracking or modifying the client program which would be more effort, but possibly also open up new avenues of exploits. These things are not tools in the sense of the ones listed above.

Warphack and fleetool change dynamically the way that any user of the hack can play the game. It invalidates space and time concerns and gives advantages to the person using it that simply hard work and attention and dedication cant duplicate. It also invalidates the programming of the game by exceeding limitations SE has built into monsters and NM's by such a degree as to make the player invincible or uncatchable. Scripts and bots can be made to play the game for you without your interaction at all, thus gaining you all the profit with none of the effort. They dont make the playing of the game easier. They dont make the shoddy interface of SE's design more understandable or easier to use. They break the game so that a player needs neither equipment, skill, or experience, to be able to do what the best player could never do.

And peregrine, if you keep patting yourself on the back so much your arm's going to fall off. If SE cares about these exploits enough to ban players maybe you should ask them why they dont fix the client so that RMT and such cant use these exploits at all. Maybe you should ask them why when they ban RMT for the same reasons theyre back within 2 weeks on the same characters, with the same equipment doing the same thing over again. You know for a fact everblack and company use both fleetool and warphack, and routinely claim things at impossible distances, yet you choose to report OH members because of your little feud and think the community should have a We love peregrine day? Please.
 
I just want to confirm that before the days of windower there were cheats that hooked the fullscreen window and gave the user custom GUI tools in full screen to interact with the 3rd Party program running in the background.

There is a very popular one that still exists today that still does this and doesn't rely on Windower at all.

So I don't agree that Windower is the gateway to other cheats. While it may intrigue people to see what other "fun" stuff they can do in the game, it definitely is not "allowing" cheats to happen, as they can be used perfectly fine without it.
 
Peregrine said:
I am being told by a few users that Outerheaven is on QCDN post restriction due to recent events.
I just want to comment that if there is such a restriction, then it is self-imposed. I certainly didn't restrict anyone's access.

Re: windower
Windowed (or let's call it non-exclusive) operation of any application is essential functionality. It is simply unreasonable to force a user to use only one application at any one time, PCs aren't consoles after all. Is it against the TOS? Perhaps, however, the TOS was written when the game was released and there was no Windower, and the TOS hasn't changed since then. Those who are hung up on the Windower usage choose to ignore (or downplay), for whatever reasons, the actual issue of cheating the game mechanics through the use of hacks.

Re: RMT issues
They have nothing to do with the current topic, why people keep interjecting unrelated issues is beyond me. This thread is about one particular thing; The use of hacks. Why is it so hard for some to focus on this?
 
Sorry, I should have mentioned that their restriction is internal.
As far as other groups using fleehacks to their advantage: I can't be everywhere. I only know certain environments. I'm doing all I can right now to end this. To come into this thread and point at me for not going after things that you're aware of begs the question: Why aren't YOU doing anything about what you know about? Again, this is the third person in three weeks for me. I'm trying to pull my own weight.

If you're brave enough to come here and criticize me for not turning in everyone, the least you could do is turn in SOMETHING yourself. This thing is so unbelievably easy to catch, and I don't know the whole server. I don't do gods any more. I'm not at Fafnir.

I think that's a question that is appropriate for this topic, which involves everyone here and not just OH. Where is everyone? Fleetool has only become a problem by riding the apathy of right players.
 
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Sculli said:
I just want to comment that if there is such a restriction, then it is self-imposed. I certainly didn't restrict anyone's access.

Re: windower
Windowed (or let's call it non-exclusive) operation of any application is essential functionality. It is simply unreasonable to force a user to use only one application at any one time, PCs aren't consoles after all. Is it against the TOS? Perhaps, however, the TOS was written when the game was released and there was no Windower, and the TOS hasn't changed since then. Those who are hung up on the Windower usage choose to ignore (or downplay), for whatever reasons, the actual issue of cheating the game mechanics through the use of hacks.

Re: RMT issues
They have nothing to do with the current topic, why people keep interjecting unrelated issues is beyond me. This thread is about one particular thing; The use of hacks. Why is it so hard for some to focus on this?

I think Peregrine meant the LS has imposed a restriction on QCDN use or replies to threads like these.

RMT has a huge issue with this simply because they have been known to use cheats frequently. When I camped Castle O., the gil sellers there constantly cheating and GMs refused to do anything about it (I could prove it given the time and patience of the GM but more often than not they just want you to STFU once you mention RMT or cheat). They were able to flee directly to the NM every time it spawned. It could pop in a far corner or completely out of sight, but regardless the seller remained motionless until NMs popped and made a straight line to spawn without ever scanning the area. Then they always had access to the PH's ToD. I could train the PH to zone and hide ToD from everyone or even be the only one at Mee Deggi while everyone else was at Quu Domi when I killed the last PH, but if the NM popped, they always knew moments before. Is it cheating to have access to information without any effort? Yes. Does it have an effect on me? Yes. I have to work to claim NMs like Mee Deggi and Quu Domi and I work hard to do it. Meanwhile RMT gets a free ride because they simply cannot compete with the overwhelming amount of campers that they have to cheat to make a living.

RMT are just as guilty if not more so than others for cheating simply because they use it constantly and have for a very long time. They are also a huge problem. Normal players justify cheating to compete with gil sellers. The vast amount of them at any given camp versus their constant presence agrivates most to the very point they would cheat just to compete with these 24/7 RMTs. If SE had deleted the accounts of gil sellers and imposed some sort of real effective counter-measure for RMT, I can say with a fair amount of certainty the average player would never even consider cheating while playing FF. As it stands, I can bet most have considered cheating and some have even researched into methods of cheating. Whether they have or not, I cannot say, but the fact they considered it means some percentage of them do use it.
 
not 100% sure Veb uses warp tool but he does use script and i know seen it on his pc and called GM and all the gm said was stop complaining lol
 
Peregrine said:
Sorry, I should have mentioned that their restriction is internal.
As far as other groups using fleehacks to their advantage: I can't be everywhere. I only know certain environments. I'm doing all I can right now to end this. To come into this thread and point at me for not going after things that you're aware of begs the question: Why aren't YOU doing anything about what you know about? Again, this is the third person in three weeks for me. I'm trying to pull my own weight.

If you're brave enough to come here and criticize me for not turning in everyone, the least you could do is turn in SOMEONE yourself. This thing is so unbelievably easy to catch, and I don't know the whole server. I don't do gods any more. I'm not at Fafnir.

I think that's a question that is appropriate for this topic, which involves everyone here and not just OH. Where is everyone? Fleetool has only become a problem by riding the apathy of right players.

I don't understand what you expect the normal player to do or how you expect them to identify someone as cheating when they are not present. Is there a program or tool that gives me this knowledge in some way or form? Seriously. I can and do report every time I see a gil seller cheating when camping Castle O. and I can say with a 100% certainty that they did in fact cheat and the GMs have done nothing to curb their cheating. Beyond being present at the time, there is no way to know for certain whether someone is cheating and calling a GM every time I suspect a person/LS may be cheating is like crying wolf. Eventually, GMs will turn a deaf ear and ignore the real cries for help. I have witnessed this first hand when a GM basically said "whatever" when I informed him of someone cheating. I could prove it and I tried explaining to him but he basically reiterated the proof back like it disproved my own statement. I tried explaining to him the gil seller was in another area at the time a PH was killed and it was impossible for him to have the ToD to flee for the PH which he eventually did. The GM then responded "the gil seller was in the other room so how could he cheat".

The italic part is just a correction. It probably should have been worded "someone" instead of "something".
 
window also is good ok helps cheater i say help as u can run program before but with window you can also find out who is on a bot as ID PC GV2 or some crap bacisly you chande ID on the script or warp tool and GS lose
 
EverQuest incorporated it's own windowing ability after users began using a 3rd party windower, now it's become their own & they're reproduced this with EverQuest II. Ragnarok Online allows for windowing, WoW allows for it.... I could go on.... Windower is not cheating 1 freaking bit, unless being able to view allakhazam at the same time to save time is considered by SE as cheating, but then some of us have 2nd computers anyway... As it has been stated previously in this thread, windowed or not, you can still run 3rd party programs behind FFXI, if it's not windowed you just have to initate the program before running FFXI. I personally have yet to use a windower program only due to the fact that I'm too scared to get pulled into in-game jail or have my acct. suspended or banned due to SE being anul about the windower being a 3rd party tool. I think SE should stop being the wuss of the MMORPG community & stop their stupid stand against the windower & perhaps incorporate a windowing option like other MMORGPS.
 
Graydaze, I took the liberty of highlighting every mention of cheats from the OP. Please explain why you harp on the "OP said all cheats" issue? It doesn't exist.

Constructive criticism.

Peregrine said:
...suspended for using a fleeing tool

Peregrine said:
...deleted for using warp tools with everything in it or associated with it.

Peregrine said:
Since the beginning of 2006, use of this fleetool has exploded. Contrary to what you may have heard, this tool allows for great gain within the game. It is not a convenience tool.

Peregrine said:
The fleetool is a problem.

Peregrine said:
I have personally turned in three players for use of fleetooling.

Peregrine said:
using fleetool to kite kindreds
...
such a tool is not to be tolerated
...
using the same fleetool

Peregrine said:
I would like an open, honest discussion about the use of these cheating tools.

Windower is convenience. This [fleetool] is cheating.
 
I believe the reason SE has not yet... and will NEVER incorporate windower into the game is that FFXI, unlike any other MMO I've heard about, is multi-platform.

They will view it as PC users having an advantage or a service that PS2 users (and future XBOX 360) cannot access. They have cited other aspects of possible expanditures in the game, such as more customizable character features, to the limitations of the PS2, and if they've not expanded the game or auxillary features of the game for this one thing, I have to believe that they will use this, excuse; if you will, to justify not including a windowing feature. (Although I definitely believe there are other reasons they will never add it; SE views it as immoral and as a cheat, they believe RMTs use it to check prices and info of items while they are trying to claim NMs and farm other items)
 
Ive had exactly the same experience Lavi described earlier with the issue of reporting RMT for using such hacks as fleehack. In particular I report AVGirl, everblack, and calmitkeboss continually to receive generic we'll look into its, or statements to the effect that they have no way of checking if this is actually happening without witnessing it and that they have better things to do with their time. So. Since you evidently have a GM's ear and can get useful responses from them regarding player use of these hacks, I asked why you couldnt put that to better use by targetting RMT than a LS you simply have a grudge against. I think the real "Discussion" we should be having is this same one but with squareenix. Too bad that other than in the OP SE hates to respond to this subject.
 
Orchid said:
So. Since you evidently have a GM's ear and can get useful responses from them regarding player use of these hacks, I asked why you couldnt put that to better use by targetting RMT than a LS you simply have a grudge against. I think the real "Discussion" we should be having is this same one but with squareenix. Too bad that other than in the OP SE hates to respond to this subject.

When RMT start using such blatent cheats as speed hax, people wont have as much trouble reporting them successfully. I have never actually seen a GS use a fleetool, but I have been relatively sure there are ones using claimbots. (Who knows though, it's not like they dont have enough experience with NMs...)

I would imagine the people Peregrine is targetting are far easier to nail than some DRG running around Sanctuary of Zitah.
 
Jesus fucking mother of mary christ.

Drop the windower topic.

THE TOPIC IS

FLEE TOOLS

Anywho. Yeah. I don't like this idea of fleetools at all. It sounds pretty damn low to be using, and seems to me represents a very weak shell. Tis a dissappointment anyone would be using such a device.Of course it's expected. People don't like to earn anything nowadays. lolhardwork.


And on a final note, all of you trying to define cheating. Seriously. [...]. Peregrine is right, [...]. The guy took the time to put together a not scrutinizing thread, with a seriously good topic on discussion. :/ [...]

[Edit: FB material removed. kk -Sculli]
 
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