Use the Windower? Watch what you say

I like how Tyran arguing for like 5 pages and didn't know what the hell he was arguing with everyone about. That was some good reading.
 
It's against the terms of use. Everyone knows it's against the terms of use. You're not pulling a MLK Jr by disobeying the terms. Stop whining or supporting your actions if you think you're entitled to a windower. You're clearly not. Any attempt to justify why you think you should be able to have a windower come off as childish, self-centered, and naive. You're not justified. They've told you why you're not justified. Now if you want to roll through stop signs because you're a soccer mom in training and you think a debit card gives you rights, you go ahead. Just don't sue when a cop finally tasers you and everyone else cheers.

You can use the windower at your own risk. That's the deal.
 
Author Message
Tiggy



Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 32


Posted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 1:28 am Post subject: Windower Not against Terms of service.
This is always a seemingly hot debate. I want to put it to rest and show how badly SE is covering themselves.

A few links will be provided.

http://www.playonline.com/ff11us/polnews/news4880.shtml

News about the SE policy on third party use. It states "In FINAL FANTASY XI, the use of any software or hardware not provided by or approved by Square Enix is strictly prohibited."

On a side note that update makes it clear that the 5th and following update were in response to the movement hacks, not the windower. /cheer

Thats all well and good that they say third party tools are not allowed there but...

https://secure.playonline.com/supportus/index03.html has the offical playonline user aggrement and software license agreement. Read them over please. You will notice no mention, that I noticed anyway, of third party software.

Article 3.1 section g states
"(g) Use of any cheat codes or cheat devices." However, the windower isn't a cheat device or code O_o


The closest thing to breaking a rule within these aggrements is in the FFXI Software license aggrement Article 2.4 Section a. "(a) modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Licensed Software;"
I'm sure cliff can comment on that more specifically.

Anyway, its not in their agreement and yet they comdemn it? We don't seem to be agreeing to not use them according to their user agreements. They need to fix them or start punishing correctly.
Click to expand...

Deimos
Developer


Joined: 19 Apr 2005
Posts: 29
Location: Mordion

Posted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:04 pm Post subject:
Deimos->RantMode(True);

Windower can not be detected, nor does it send any special requests to the server. TP info is already in RAM and is simply read out and displayed on screen.

I find SE's position on this issue to be rather disturbing, to be honest. The FFXI client is full of holes and bugs, because it is a crappy port from the PS2 version, which is meant to be run on a client where the user can not do anything other than play the game. Rather than fix their problems, they decided to make FFXI fullscreen and disallow the ability to use other programs simultaneously. The FFXI client isn't even eligible for a "Designed for Windows" certification because it disallows alt+tab and windowed mode. The client software also performs very few checks on any of the data in memory. It "assumes" that everything will always be exactly the way it's supposed to be, which is precisely why there are so many exploitable aspects.

There's also lots of information on the client that doesn't need to be there. TP is readily available in memory, as is a whole lot of other crap that has no business being there. The windows client should be on a need-to-know basis, not a "here, you figure out what you need" basis.

Point being, SE designed FFXI for the PS2, but when the decision makers decided to port it to Windows, the development team either got lazy or lacked the technical know-how to pull it off without trying to turn your PC into something it's not -- a PS2. The PC isn't a single use device nor do users want to see their PC's monopolized by FFXI while they're looking for party and whatnot.

And as far as TParty... if that data is supposed to be so secret, then don't send it to EVERY PERSON in the party. Better yet, don't put unnecessary crap in memory. Maybe even throw some encryption in there, or some randomization... Sure, you can create rules that say "Don't modify the client", but cheaters and gil-sellers aren't going to follow those rules regardless.

The message is clear though. With 24,000 unique visitors to the windower site yesterday, it obvious that people just don't want to play FFXI fullscreen. All that's left for SE to do is to harden the client against exploits... but they just don't seem to be willing to do that.

Oh, and for the record, they didn't even try to fix the warping/flying exploit... they incidentally broke it in the process of trying to disable windowers. Good thing SE doesn't make operating systems. :/

To sum it up, basically it's like putting a sign on the front of your house that says, "Stealing my stuff is strictly forbidden," instead of locking your fucking doors. Way to go, SE.

Deimos->RantMode(False);
Click to expand...

technically, using the windower isn't against the TOS. by the way, the first quote.. the person forgot to mention this, but the Windower does not reverse engineer any FFXI code, or modify the code in any way at all. oh, and Tyran you're an idiot.
 
Original TOS Agreement:

Article 3: Prohibited Activities and Indemnification
3.1 Prohibited Activities.
You may not use the Game or PlayOnline for any activities that are illegal, fraudulent, or a violation of the rights of any third party. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, the following acts and activities are strictly prohibited and shall, without prejudice to any other rights or remedies that SEI may have, be cause for immediate termination of your PlayOnline account and your right to play the Game (or any other services) in connection therewith:


(a) Any activities consisting of selling, purchasing or exchanging “gil” or any other currency that may be used in the Game from time to time, characters, and/or Game items for value (including, but not limited to, any payment in kind and any payment in any currency recognized as legal tender in any country, state, territory or other jurisdiction anywhere in the world) through any means or venue, including, without limitation, Internet auctions or other online exchanges;
(b) The use of or participation in the Game for the purpose, in furtherance of, or in preparation for committing any illegal acts (including, by way of example but not limitation, any kind of gambling) or otherwise violating any applicable local, state, national or international law, or any rules or regulations promulgated thereunder;
(c) The interference with or disruption of the Game or the PlayOnline Service or any servers or networks connected thereto, or the failure to obey any procedures, policies, regulations or other requirements of any networks connected to the PlayOnline Service;
(d) The unauthorized use, duplication, transmission, display, performance or distribution of any items owned by you or third parties, or any other commission of any act of copyright, trademark, or patent infringement, trade secret infringement or misappropriation, or any other violation of any intellectual property or other proprietary right;
(e) The impersonation or attempted impersonation of any employee of SEI or any SEI partner or affiliate, any other user of the Game or the PlayOnline Service, or any other person, in a manner intended to deceive or mislead any third party, or in any effort to access the account of another Game player or PlayOnline user;
(f) The use of the Game or the PlayOnline Service to harass any third party, including other users of the Game and PlayOnline Service, or to solicit, encourage or threaten bodily harm or destruction of property; and
(g) Use of any cheat codes or cheat devices.
Click to expand...

Revised:

From:FINAL FANTASY XI
Jul. 5, 2005 07:00 [PDT]

Square Enix Policy Concerning Third-Party Tool Use

We have recently discovered some of our players to be using third-party "hacking" tools to move their characters instantaneously around dungeons and battlefields alike.

In FINAL FANTASY XI, the use of any software or hardware not provided by or approved by Square Enix is strictly prohibited.

While we make no specific official announcements regularly to this effect, we do in fact implement a variety of devices to counter such behavior with each version update, and we duly punish any and all players we find to be using such tools. In today's version update, we implemented counter-measures to address the irregular movement described above.

We can and will take further action as necessary against players caught using similar tools in the future as well.

Thank you for your cooperation, and thank you again for playing FINAL FANTASY XI.
Click to expand...

According to this revisement, we're not allowed to run Windows XP, or any software on our PC's, or use any Hardware either, because it didn't come from Square Enix, Inc.

hilarious
 
lets just end this whole thing with...

It's ignorant that you can't Minimize the screen. I use windower all the time. Why? Music Food Guide, Craft Guide, Quest Guides....

I still have the old windower, and it works just fine for my purpose.
So it's stuck in the Upper left corner, big deal, I can still read everything in the window behind it, i just have a smaller viewing area.

I hope if I get caught using it, they will go easy on me since it's the old version.
 
Trippyhippy said:
I hope if I get caught using it, they will go easy on me since it's the old version.
Click to expand...

you won't get caught, at least... not by them 'detecting' you running the windower. the windower doesn't send any data or pull any data to/from Square Enix, there is absolutely zero chance of SE knowing you're using the Windower. That's because the Windower wraps itself around POL before FFXI loads, and puts the game into a new environment where it thinks it's being played fullscreen. this sounds worse than it really is however, as none of the final fantasy code or files on your computer have been modified or tampered with.

now, if SE sees you bragging about using the windower by viewing some of your chatlogs, or somebody reports you, then that's an entirely different story, even though you can still just say "i was just joking around", or "He was lying, i dont use the windower"

in the end, though.. SE can pull its mighty Trump Card and ban/delete your account with THIS!

SEI makes no assurances, representations or warranties whatsoever about the accuracy, currency or continuing availability of this Player Data at any time and reserves its right, at any time and from time to time, without notice to you, to delete all or any part of your Player Data.
Click to expand...
 
Peregrine said:
It's against the terms of use. Everyone knows it's against the terms of use. You're not pulling a MLK Jr by disobeying the terms. Stop whining or supporting your actions if you think you're entitled to a windower. You're clearly not. Any attempt to justify why you think you should be able to have a windower come off as childish, self-centered, and naive. You're not justified. They've told you why you're not justified. Now if you want to roll through stop signs because you're a soccer mom in training and you think a debit card gives you rights, you go ahead. Just don't sue when a cop finally tasers you and everyone else cheers.

You can use the windower at your own risk. That's the deal.
Click to expand...

No one's claiming a right or entitlement to have a windower. I don't think rights or justice apply to video games. But it does seem reasonable that players should be able to multitask, which is something computers are designed to handle. Most other online games I've played allow this. Though I doubt they'll change their approach, I hope Square addresses this directly and makes their reasoning more clear.

If they see windowers as an unfair advantage over PS2 users, fine. If they merely lump them in with all other 'third-party programs', as malicious by definition--well, that's just laziness on their part.

~Genjuro
 
Tyran said:
Thanks given to The Funch Scholar (of alla)


People are arguing about whether or not the windower is acceptable for use with FFXI. Here's why I say no:

From what I understand, the Windower reads memory locations client-side. The general public doesn't know what the heck a memory location is; it's something that usually (but not always) programmers and other computer-knowledgeable people know about. Therefore a program is needed to read these memory locations, which also change whenever a FFXI update is released ("The windower is broken again!"). Whoever does dev on the windower has to therefore analyze FFXI and poke around in the memory that the program is using to find the new memory location.

I found definitions for "reverse engineering" from various sites:

Wikipedia: "Reverse engineering (RE) is the process of taking something (a device, an electrical component, a software program, etc.) apart and analyzing its workings in detail, usually with the intention to construct a new device or program that does the same thing without actually copying anything from the original.[...]Reverse engineering of software can be accomplished by various methods. The two main groups of reverse engineering is analysis through observation of information exchange (most prevalent in protocol reverse engineering), disassembly using a disassembler, or decompilation using a decompiler."

ChillingEffects.org: "Reverse engineering is the general process of analyzing a technology specifically to ascertain how it was designed or how it operates.[...]The reverse engineering process allows researchers to understand [...] how a program works"

IBM Systems Journal article: "When a system is reverse engineered, it is examined, documented, modeled, analyzed, and understood, in order to better inform subsequent efforts."

Carnegie Mellon University Software Engineering Institute: "The process of analyzing a system's code, documentation, and behavior to identify its current components and their dependencies to extract and create system abstractions and design information. The subject system is not altered; however, additional knowledge about the system is produced."

Based on these definitions -- multiple sources basically saying the same thing -- the windower would be considered reverse engineering FFXI. Mellon's definition is the most damning and fits this situation almost completely: the dev(s) analyzed the behavior of FFXI (where it stores what data in memory), identified that TP data of other party members existed, created design information (which led to programming a tool to enable people to read that data), and produced additional knowledge about FFXI without altering FFXI (it can get the TP data but cannot change it on the server).
The FFXI Software Agreement, which "you were required to accept and execute prior to installing and playing the Game" along with the FFXI User Agreement, "will commence when you indicate your acceptance of its terms and conditions and proceed to install the Licensed Software" and "will immediately and automatically terminate upon your breach of any provision of this Agreement or the Member Agreement" (Section 2.2, Term and Termination), includes the following restriction under Section 2.4:
" To the maximum extent permitted by law, you may not:
(a) modify, reverse engineer, decompile, or disassemble the Licensed Software;"
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Reality you stated

technically, using the windower isn't against the TOS. by the way, the first quote.. the person forgot to mention this, but the Windower does not reverse engineer any FFXI code, or modify the code in any way at all. oh, and Tyran you're an idiot.
Click to expand...

Im glad you took the time to read the debate did you mis the part about it DOES us reverse engineering. I gave you definitions. I even went step by step on how it does it. I did not state it was modified. If you get caught it your 96 hours not mine. I could see you having an argument with me being an idiot if I had not done my reaserch or had nothing to base my opinion on but seeing as how i have posted the above and pics I hardly see where you get off calling me an Idiot. Then you say that windower does not use reverse engineering. I put this in bold so that you can read it easier seeing s how you missed it the first time. But If it make feel better about yourself jump on the band waggon and ride:roll:
 
Reality said:
Original TOS Agreement:

Article 3: Prohibited Activities and Indemnification
3.1 Prohibited Activities.
You may not use the Game or PlayOnline for any activities that are illegal, fraudulent, or a violation of the rights of any third party. Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, the following acts and activities are strictly prohibited and shall, without prejudice to any other rights or remedies that SEI may have, be cause for immediate termination of your PlayOnline account and your right to play the Game (or any other services) in connection therewith:


(a) Any activities consisting of selling, purchasing or exchanging “gil” or any other currency that may be used in the Game from time to time, characters, and/or Game items for value (including, but not limited to, any payment in kind and any payment in any currency recognized as legal tender in any country, state, territory or other jurisdiction anywhere in the world) through any means or venue, including, without limitation, Internet auctions or other online exchanges;
(b) The use of or participation in the Game for the purpose, in furtherance of, or in preparation for committing any illegal acts (including, by way of example but not limitation, any kind of gambling) or otherwise violating any applicable local, state, national or international law, or any rules or regulations promulgated thereunder;
(c) The interference with or disruption of the Game or the PlayOnline Service or any servers or networks connected thereto, or the failure to obey any procedures, policies, regulations or other requirements of any networks connected to the PlayOnline Service;
(d) The unauthorized use, duplication, transmission, display, performance or distribution of any items owned by you or third parties, or any other commission of any act of copyright, trademark, or patent infringement, trade secret infringement or misappropriation, or any other violation of any intellectual property or other proprietary right;
(e) The impersonation or attempted impersonation of any employee of SEI or any SEI partner or affiliate, any other user of the Game or the PlayOnline Service, or any other person, in a manner intended to deceive or mislead any third party, or in any effort to access the account of another Game player or PlayOnline user;
(f) The use of the Game or the PlayOnline Service to harass any third party, including other users of the Game and PlayOnline Service, or to solicit, encourage or threaten bodily harm or destruction of property; and
(g) Use of any cheat codes or cheat devices.
Click to expand...

Revised:

From:FINAL FANTASY XI
Jul. 5, 2005 07:00 [PDT]

Square Enix Policy Concerning Third-Party Tool Use

We have recently discovered some of our players to be using third-party "hacking" tools to move their characters instantaneously around dungeons and battlefields alike.

In FINAL FANTASY XI, the use of any software or hardware not provided by or approved by Square Enix is strictly prohibited.

While we make no specific official announcements regularly to this effect, we do in fact implement a variety of devices to counter such behavior with each version update, and we duly punish any and all players we find to be using such tools. In today's version update, we implemented counter-measures to address the irregular movement described above.

We can and will take further action as necessary against players caught using similar tools in the future as well.

Thank you for your cooperation, and thank you again for playing FINAL FANTASY XI.
Click to expand...

According to this revisement, we're not allowed to run Windows XP, or any software on our PC's, or use any Hardware either, because it didn't come from Square Enix, Inc.

hilarious
Click to expand...

Are you going to sit here and try to explain how SE does not approve Windows. :roll: again just on the wagon and ride.
 
Tyran said:
Are you going to sit here and try to explain how SE does not approve Windows. :roll: again just on the wagon and ride.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing you didn't actually get the message from his post.
 
So almost everyone here does realize the difference between breaking a rule and cheating?

Here's what I don't quite get:

1 - I have 2 computers, side-by-side. I can use one to play FFXI, and the other to browse websites (FFXI guides, random news sites, etc) while waiting for a group. That's ok.

2 - I have 1 computer. I use the windower to browse websites (FFXI guides, random news sites, etc) while waiting for a group. That's cheating.

Gimme a break.

But the end result is exactly the same, the difference is just using 1 computer vs 2 computers.

The Windower may or may not enable someone to cheat (by being able to use other 3rd party programs), but the Windower itself (at least prior to 3.2, I've not used 3.2 yet) is not a cheat. Against the rules (because SE decided no windowed mode would be possible), but not cheating (by any definition I'd use). It's against the rules because SE can find no other way to police 3rd party cheating programs, so they just blanket-state that all are illegal.

Hell, my character is only levels 19/11/8/8/8/8 and I've already experienced boring-assed downtimes (45 min + waiting for a group) occasionally, and the windower (prior to yesterday) could have allowed me to spend that time unbored. But that would be cheating?

And looking over the features of 3.2, it does appear to me to go to far. But running the game in windowed mode, in and of itself, is not cheating.
 
IndyRacing said:
So almost everyone here does realize the difference between breaking a rule and cheating?

Here's what I don't quite get:

1 - I have 2 computers, side-by-side. I can use one to play FFXI, and the other to browse websites (FFXI guides, random news sites, etc) while waiting for a group. That's ok.

2 - I have 1 computer. I use the windower to browse websites (FFXI guides, random news sites, etc) while waiting for a group. That's cheating.

Gimme a break.

But the end result is exactly the same, the difference is just using 1 computer vs 2 computers.

The Windower may or may not enable someone to cheat (by being able to use other 3rd party programs), but the Windower itself (at least prior to 3.2, I've not used 3.2 yet) is not a cheat. Against the rules (because SE decided no windowed mode would be possible), but not cheating (by any definition I'd use). It's against the rules because SE can find no other way to police 3rd party cheating programs, so they just blanket-state that all are illegal.

Hell, my character is only levels 19/11/8/8/8/8 and I've already experienced boring-assed downtimes (45 min + waiting for a group) occasionally, and the windower (prior to yesterday) could have allowed me to spend that time unbored. But that would be cheating?

And looking over the features of 3.2, it does appear to me to go to far. But running the game in windowed mode, in and of itself, is not cheating.
Click to expand...

Once more this is about the fact you are altering FFXI nothing else. cheating is in the pics that are in the post. Do you cheat? No? ok did you alter FFXI? Yes? You sid you looked at the features of 3.2. You see nothing at all that whould lead me to my discussion? Its altering FFXI nothing less.
 
Tyran is right. The current windower has in fact used reverse engineering - otherwise things like TPary wouldn't be available.

There is a way to create a windower that simply doesn't allow FFXI to run in full screen mode, and if it was available - I would use it. All I want is the ability to alt-tab.

As for what Reality posted. FFXI Client Side is SHIT... I honestly want to know how someone gained the ability to instant warp anywhere they pleased. That alone vouches for how crappy the system is. How much longer would it have been for them to tell the server how much gil they wanted?

Tyran - we are tired of hearing that this is against ToS. Most of us AGREE with you, we just don't give a shit. SE has a lot to do before I regain confidence in them.

Reality - you probably have a valid argument in that whole post, however - SE also has the trump card of being able to change the ToS for any reason at any time. W/TParty loaded, windower is against Tos, and probable w/out it, is still against the ToS. The current windower most likely reads information out of the memory locations to prevent it from crashing out. (Just speculation on the last part, it doesn't seem to JUST hijack DirectX anymore)
 
"Players have requested that we take a stronger stance on third party programs.."''

Since when do they do anything we request? lol
 
Based on these definitions -- multiple sources basically saying the same thing -- the windower would be considered reverse engineering FFXI. Mellon's definition is the most damning and fits this situation almost completely: the dev(s) analyzed the behavior of FFXI (where it stores what data in memory), identified that TP data of other party members existed, created design information (which led to programming a tool to enable people to read that data), and produced additional knowledge about FFXI without altering FFXI (it can get the TP data but cannot change it on the server).
Click to expand...

fortunately us end-users who are using the Windower aren't reverse engineering FFXI, if this was done at all, it was during the development of the windower program, the end result isn't reverse engineering anything and thus it puts the windower devs at the risk of losing their accounts, and not the people actually using the Windower itself

and besides, Final Fantasy XI puts this information into our system memory, if i have a program that can scan my system memory for specific addresses, that's my business, this program would be nothing more illegal than me running a 3rd party mp3 player in the background while i play

(Just speculation on the last part, it doesn't seem to JUST hijack DirectX anymore)
Click to expand...

actually, at the moment this is all the Windower is actually doing, i'm looking for the post on archbell right now, i'll post it when I find it.
 
With everything disabled, if all it does is hijack DirectX, then there is nothing FFXI can do about windower, because it is not directly affecting the FFXI service. It is telling Directx how we want directx to work.

In which case, Reality is right =D. Prove SE and Tyran wrong Reality lol
 
Tyran said:
The Fact is its a third party program...its cheating PS2 cant do it windowers have the advantage. Its cheating.
Click to expand...

I know this has been beaten to death, but I wanted to ask you something...a comparison.

1 - Using 3rd party programs may be against the ToS (actually reading them can be vague, but for this we'll assume that Windower is against ToS).

2 - You say anyone using Windower is a "cheater", even the ones who use it only to be able to run in a window so they can check websites, etc (gaining no in-game advantage that can't be gained by having a 2nd comp or a PC near your PS2, which are, of course, not against ToS).

Would you also say that anyone who has ever exceeded a speed limit, anywhere, is a criminal? Your logic says you would agree that they are criminals. A crime is breaking a law, and criminals are those who've commited a crime.

See, I would actually not accuse anyone who's exceeded the speed limit a criminal, for one simple, reason...there's nothing intrinsicly wrong with going a certain speed (any speed). Of course breaking other laws is intrinsically wrong, such as murder, theft, and the like, but not exceeding a speed limit. In fact, various nations and US states can't even agree what the speed limit should be, so even if there was a given speed where going beyond it was somehow "wrong", and thus truly criminal, no one can seem to agree with what that speed is (and some areas don't even have limits).

And that would mean that approximately 99.9% of all humans with a driver's licsense and a vehicle (for a decent amount of time, like 3 months) would be criminals, by your definition. But I wouldn't expect any rational person to actually make such a claim, because the word criminal is a pretty harsh word, bringing up images of murder, rape, theft, thuggery, and the like. Just like cheating is a very harsh word.

Now it's true that driving too fast for the conditions can cause other infractions to become more serious (such as changing lanes without signalling, and then getting hit by someone who didn't know you were changing...the resulting accident will be worse), but the speeding itself doesn't actually cause anything, it's the combination of speeding and something else that does.

The Windower is much the same. Simply using it to allow you you view websites, or access an mp3 player, or something else similar, isn't giving you any in-game advantage. Of course it could be used in combination with such a program, but it doesn't mean that anyone using it is a cheater. The actual problem is the 3rd party programs that DO give in-game advantages (such as speed increases or location warpers), and that is where SE should be spending it's resources, making their client safe from actual hacks.

Just because something is against a rule (or law or ToS) doesn't mean it's "wrong", or cheating or criminal. Sometimes there are simply very bad rules. Hell, lying isn't against the law unless you are under oath (in the US, at least), yet I'd guess most people would think less of someone who habitually lied (without breaking a single law) than they would of someone who was honest but sped on the highway (breaking laws every single day).

Unless, of course, you DO think every single person who's EVER exceeded the speed limit is a criminal (the same as those who've commited "real" crimes). If that is the case, then I have a question for you...where do they grow people like you?

(Having said all of that, I do realize why SE is going after the Windower...because they are simply unable to stop the actually hacking programs...and I said 99.9% of all people who drive have sped, because invariably, somewhere out there is a grandma who's driven for 40 years and never exceeded a speed limit, even accidentally, but that's also the same person who drives 40 in a 55 - which is also against the law here)
 
wow...just a question, how did the guy get caught?

1. If he was /sh'n it or makin it public, that's his own fault

2. If S-E actually scanned his comp/IP/FFXI folder they can be sued IRL for privacy infringment so...he shoulda just said that if they were going to ban him for that ammount of time anyways

3. I personally have no reason to see why the damn TP viewer is a real "cheat" since that isnt really cheating...wow i can see your TP OMGZ!!!I'M TEH HAXORZ 1337 CH3A73R!! wtf S-E stop the fuckin packit sniffers and shit NOT THE FUCKING TP SCANNER!!!

4. This is another reason why I am furthering my reason to quit FFXI...
 
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