Useless Thieves?

Fyrus

Fyrus

I'll believe in anything
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I'm curious as to what a THF main has to offer PT's anymore. I'm 44 at the moment, in gear that is about normal for most THF's that level that have not been playing since NA release, and that do not farm on a regular basis. I don't have a huge problem finding PT's but I'm getting the feeling its going to get much harder.

I've heard the stories about the DRK/THF and other /THF folks that are getting PT's instead of THF/'s at 60+. I've seen these /THF's in my parties and see how such a thing is not absurd.

A person I consider a friend, and therefore do not mind mentioning the name, Darksider, who is a DRK/THF was doing a fantastic job as a DD pre-60 in Crawler's Nest. Doing low 400's with SE plus SA plus the occasional Last resort or whatever that was. While he was doing around 100 or so less on his SA+WS's and his SA+WS+JA's than I, he was still doing enough for me to believe he could effectively replace me for damage, leaving me only good for pulling and SATA. And at 60+ it seems all I could do that he could/should not do would be pulling.

This scares me silly. I've invested 90% of my time in this game to leveling my Thief, and getting him the best gear I can etc. etc. Now I'm afraid I'll be sitting around with the Dragoon's in Jeuno for 3 days until someone invites me out of pity! No offense to the Dragoons out there, just stating a observation of mine.

So what can I do, as a THF main to try and improve my chances of a PT? Realistically I can't think of anything short paying people to PT with me. :lol:

I'd hate to have to quit because SE didn't have the foresight to fix /THF so that it didn't remove the need for a THF/ 60+.
 
keep a leveled subjob is the most basic and effective ways to improve your charicter, and chance to get a PT.
 
Well there was a new Thf trait added to give thfs extra dmg on their SaTa attacks I think at lvl 60. Most likely put in there to balance out the drk/thf's over powering ability to SaTa with better dmg.

Theifs are in no way absolete, as after all when you have theif in the party you know your gonna get better loot.

All I have to say is, as long as your using a ninja sub then your just fine with Thf and wont have too much to worry about.

Personally if your friend was using the drk/thf combo before lvl 60 then as far as im concerned, he's not playing Drk to its best capability.

Thief is best subbed onto Drk only after 60, before then all it adds is flee (which in combat is useless), and Sneak Attack. While Sneak Attack is fun to play with it really doesnt add any more damage than a normal critical hit, and you can only do it once every minute or so. People have told me "Oh, but you get more dex with theif sub." This is not true, i switched back and forth from /war to /thf and ther is absolutely no dex gain. Aside from Sneak Attack there is nothing pre 60 that /thf has to offer. Your overall attack is weaker. And it adds some useless traits.

With warrior sub you get, added attack bonus as a normal trait. The beserk ability, which you get fairly early with the sub and its a wonderful ability for increasing your damage for a large durations of a fight and when it wears you have a few minutes before you can use it again. Berserk is simply a wonderful ability. You also get a defense trait, now you may think "Well Drk don't need defense" and while this is true, trust me, that extra def buff will help you out on those times when you get too much hate from the mob and it starts swinging your way. At 50 you get double attack, and let me say, double attack with scythes and greatswords is juicy. Even if your accuracy is not top notch, but close, when you double attack your almost always garenteed to land atleast one hit. When you do land two, more damage, more TP. All around great.

Dark Knights should just use warrior sub up untill lvl 60. You just get more out of it, and so does your party.

And about your friend using soul eater + sneak attack + last resort, that's an idiot move. I'm sorry, but if your a suicidal Drk then by all means do that. Since your using /thf you have lower defense than usual (with /war), and by using soul eater you just provoked the mob, which if the tank has a large portion of hate, then you'll still be fine. If not, then once you activate soul eater that mobs already headed your way and sneak attack isnt going to work. But say you've got a good tank and he keeps hate, then you sneakattack + last resort. Guess what, last resort also has some hate pulling effects when you activate it so with soul eater and last resort used relatively closed to each other you've just taken a huge chunk of the hate, and while the Tank may still hold the hate, his grasp is considereably weakened. What's next.. you land the sneak attack and do some really great damage.. and lost a nice chunk of health and ya know what.. now the mob IS on you. There is no way it couldnt be. I'm not so sure even the best tanks could keep hate immediately after that.
Did I mention with last resort your already weak defense is weaker. Now your being beat on with low defense.

Now I'm not sure how smart your friend is. A lot of Drk's I have seen have death wishes and leave Soul Eater on continuing to hit the mob for high damage making it harder for the tank to get hate back, while at the same time the Drk is losing even more hp.

Now im not saying its not possible to pull off that move, but you have to be smart about it. The only way to survive that is to, immediatly after the sneak attack lands, turn off soul eater and last resort. Now this will give you a better chance at survival and let the tank have an easier time to get hate back, but the mob is still going to be in your face for a little bit and with the lack of defense you'll have as a Drk/Thf you may not be able to survive that.

(Yes, I know.. your not even a Dark Knight Fyrus, when I say "you" I mean anyone who's a Dark Knight, specifically with a theif sub before lvl 60)

Souleater and Last Resort should just not be used together, together they create pretty much the strength of 1 - 1 1/2 provokes pulling hate, as well as each consecutive hit with soul eater pulls more hate.

Likewise even Drk/War has to know better than to do this.. Drk/War deathwish is Berserk + Soul Eater + Last Resort = 1 dead Drk, and quick.

Soul Eater is best used by itself to dish out damage or even with beserk, but only used after your tank (peferably Pld) has well established his hate control.

Last Resort is best use right before a Weapon Skill as it alone does not have a lot hate pulling power and will up the attack of your WS. If you are using Drk/Thf then Last Resort can be used either before any WS or before SaTa to up the dmg you'll do, even before SaTa +WS would still be okay, because your using Trick attack, and you will not have to worry about being the one to recieve the hate.

>.> Well I kinda veered off topic.. the whole thing about your friend being a Drk/Thf just put me off, now it would have been fine but then you told me about his Soul Eater + Sneak Attack + Last Resort BS. Not that it's BS, but it is a really dumb move to pull as a Dark Knight.
 
It's not as bad as people make it sound. Everyone loves THFs, also, it's a tad dramatic, the way you word your fears. The best thing to do is to make your own PTs. ^^ Then there won't be a problem.
 
Dramatic? No. Concerned that all the time I've put in will be for nothing? Yes.

Ecks, he only used it at/near the end of fights if I remember correctly.


Thanks for the advice, you two.
 
i like thieves. SATA is good with ninja tank. viper bite > dancing edge > evisceration is pretty good.

they arent a heavy DD but things like triple attack allow them to build TP fairly quick with NIN sub.
 
Stop being concerned and level that subjob.
And definitely go get NIN and level it as well.

You can make your own parties if you don't get invites.

Every job has it's niche.

A good THF is still invaluable to a party, so long as the rest of the party plays their job properly as well.
 
Thf/nin is great for parties, especially one with a nin tank. W/ a nin tank, thf will add extra hate onto the tank w/ SATA, which helps out hate control. Also, they have pretty high damage weapon skills, sometimes able to get into the 800s, depending on the mob. Don't ever think thfs are useless, because they aren't.
 
About THFs: They still fit in parties. First, SE added the new Assassin trait at level 60, which I believe lets you use Trick Attack solo and do similar damage to Sneak Attack. So you don't have to worry about making the mob turn away for you to SATA on to the tank. Assassin may also increase damage done with the "full" SATA, I'm not sure (only briefly read up on it).

About DRKs (yes, I know I'm sorta hijacking this thread, I blame it on Ecks): From 1-30, /WAR and /THF don't add any special traits or abilities, except Steal from THF and Provoke and Defense+ from WAR. From 30-50, /WAR gives Berserk and /THF gives Sneak Attack. One gives a guaranteed critical hit every minute, the other gives a decent increase to damage done with all hits for 3 minutes, but can only be used once every 5 minutes. Knowing how big accuracy problems can be for DRK (or any heavy melee job, for that matter), just having a guaranteed normal hit every minute is valuable; making it a critical hit is even better. Plus, with /THF, you get more DEX (you sure you looked at the numbers right?), plus you can wear the Pilferer's Earring at level 30, which gives +2 DEX if you have a THF sub. At 50, /WAR gives Double Attack, so you want to go with /WAR until at least 60. At 60 you get the full SATA with /THF, but TA doesn't increase damage (just transfers hate) with a THF sub, so you won't be doing any more damage.

Finally, the attack bonus trait WAR gets at level 30 doesn't work if you have DRK main, as you don't get benefits from a sub's JTs if your main has the same JT
 
72 THF/NIN here. You will be looking for parties just as long as most other melees. The problem with thief is that there are so many of them. It's a fun job and a lot of people enjoy it, therefore there is almost always an abundance of them. A lot of people like thieves in their PTs, but there are often 4-6 seeking at the same time in your level range. So yes, you will be waiting around for a party longer than a rdm, whm, brd, or blm... but you've been doing that since lv15, right? Right. Don't fret, you'll be fine. Just hang in there and do some (synthesis) or something while you lfp.^^b
 
If you're a DRK, *please* don't sub THF until 59 (Assuming you're going to be hitting 60 in that same party)

1-59 = War SUB. Berserk at 30 (15 WAR) and Double Attack at 50 (25 WAR) are insanely better Job Abilities for DRK than a guaranteed Critical Hit once every minute. If you think DRK's have trouble gaining TP, this is usually because they have THF subbed.

Look at the other melee jobs and their TP gaining capabilities:

Dragoon: Accuracy Bonus & Jump Abilities
Samurai: Store TP & Meditate (And Meikyo Shisui)
Warrior: Aggressor & Double Attack
Thief: Triple Attack / Naturally high DEX
Monk: Focus & Martial Arts
Ranger: Accuracy Bonus (x4), Barrage

Now, add subjobs to each of these jobs and once they reach the appropriate level, will gain other abilities that increase TP gain even more (Meditate, Double Attack, Focus, Accuracy Bonus, etc.)

Lets look at Dark Knight as a stand alone job (sans Subjob)

No multi-attacking abilities. (War/Thf)
No TP gaining/storing abilities. (Samurai)
No Accuracy Bonuses (Rng/Drg)
No Accuracy Boosting abilities (War/Mnk)

DRK was designed to hit slowly, but hit hard and as such were given:
Souleater (Consumes HP to increase Melee Damage)
Last Resort (Think of it as a slighly increased Berserk, lasts 30 seconds)

So basically what you have is a Damage Machine, but nothing to really give them a competitive edge to keep up with other jobs for Skillchains.

The sole purpose of a Melee Job in an EXP party is to:
#1. Create consistant, mid-to-high damage.
#2. Participate in Skillchains.

How can a Drk/Thf keep up with a Sam/War, Drg/War, Thf/Nin (or /Sam), War/Nin, or RNG in TP?

Simple, they can't.

But they CAN try to remedy this problem by subbing Warrior to 60, which allows them to occasionally Double Attack, which (Believe me) does help the situation.

Don't do your party a disservice. Just use Warrior Sub on DRK pre-60. The miniscule DEX bonus between Warrior/Thf SJ is ridiculous.

Check out these base stats for a Lv.50 DRK

Warrior SJ:

HP: 879
MP: 212
STR: 57
DEX: 49

Thief SJ:
HP: 853
MP: 212
STR: 54
DEX: 51

I gain 2 points of DEX and lose 3 points of STR.

People who harp on subbing THF pre-60 because of the DEX gain, well... why are you trying to boost your DEX? You need to be focusing on Accuracy and Attack. Not DEX.

Sorry for this long rant, but I keep seeing so many Lv.50-58 Drk/Thf's and I don't know if its because they're misinformed about the job, or whatever, but Warrior SJ is better for the (Party) than THF subjob until 60+ (And even then, I still prefer a Drk/War if there's a THF in the party until 66).
 
All great posts! And to answer the "level your subjob" comment, I Know! I've been grinding exp since friday morning so my subjob gap kept growing. >_<


See you guys in the dunes either today or tomorrow >_>
 
Fyrus said:
All great posts! And to answer the "level your subjob" comment, I Know! I've been grinding exp since friday morning so my subjob gap kept growing. >_<


See you guys in the dunes either today or tomorrow >_>
Click to expand...
Why dont you set up a pt in event scheduling and avoid exping in the dunes, might be much faster to level your sub elsehwere.
 
Yeah, like Lore said, the only reason it's hard for THFs to find PTs is because there's so damn many of 'em. You gotta compete against lots of other THFs for PTs, so it takes quite awhile. Just make sure you've got a leveled sub, and good equipment, and you'll get invites. :)
 
It's been said, but I'll go ahead and say it again.

It can be hard to get a party with popular melee jobs, especially thief and dragoon, and people will pick other thieves over you because your subjob isn't leveled.
 
Yeah, hijacking the thread again to talk about DRK...

I still think that DRK/THF from 30 to 50 is a viable alternative to DRK/WAR. At that level range, the only thing /WAR gives is Berserk and Provoke, and /THF gives SA, Steal, and TH1. Only Berserk and SA actually increase damage done. Berserk does gradual damage over time, SA does sudden damage at one point. SA also guarantees a hit once per minute, which IMO is useful for a job that doesn't hit that many times in a minute (a DRK gets around 7-8 attacks in one minute, having one of them a guaranteed hit is useful). You are right that from 50-60, Berserk and Double Attack are far more powerful than just Sneak Attack, however.

Also, DRK does get an accuracy-boosting ability: Souleater. Yes, it does add some accuracy, I've proven that (checked a mob before turning it on, was either high or normal evasion, used Souleater, it was normal/low evasion). No idea how much, though.
 
SOmething else i'd like to point out.Thief's can use their flee ability if they link and can take the stuff to zone without dieing or bringing it to party.Also thief's 2hr is pretty nice like u can tank with it and thief's are alot better pullers than most jobs.I like never party without a thief cuz sata helps alot to keep hate when leveling my ninja.thief has a nice chain with range too.I have both nin and war leveled to sub with my thief but i usually go for war sub with berserk and strike shield unless i'm pulling dinos.
 
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