Valkyrs

Firestreak said:
(your views being fuck everyone I'm stealing whatever I want
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And I said this where? Once again you are making up shit. I never said that you can steal everything, fuck everyone. You are trying to put words into my mouth. Which is pretty much the only way you have of defending yourself. I don't steal, I'm not a thf, nor have I stolen anything from anybody. Get your facts straight jackass. Then come to me without your claims being false.
 
After a couple weeks of under 1hr kills on Kirin, BoL's last Kirin we had a crisis occur (someone called for help on Seiryu while in Full Alliance) which caused a full wipe with Byakko and Genbu BOTH up running around. We managed to keep sending people in to die while tanks recovered and less then an hour later we had a new Osode recipient.

The fight is never over until a LS decides to quit.
 
Bigboy said:
Obsessing much Arien?

Having the benefit of being completely impartial in all this, I feel its fair to say that you aren't arguing against Firestreak's words, but against Firestreak himself. I can totally understnd what he's saying and I can't fathom how it is you view him as a hypocrite in this. You're only argument for why you're LS stealing is ok, is because sky has been overcrowded for a while. Then you go one to say it won't be the end of stuff like this.

What puts such a sour taste in people's mouthes here is that this is a new beginning of sorts for Valkyrs. Perhaps not the server, but thats not what you should base your actions on. All you have told us is that you dont feel it is important to take the moral high road because others haven't. If thats the case, and your LS no longer acts due to its own beliefs, but instead acts to match the attitudes of others, it may be time for a reforming. A shell is the sum of its parts, and if some of its parts are bad, that makes the shell bad, and something needs to be fixed ad the parts need to be removed/replaced.

Really though, kinda pathetic to go so far as to changing your forum title to "Pwning Firestreak". I mean really, just because you put it there doesn't make it true. Perhaps you should try "Pwn'd by my LS"
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I am arguing at Firestreak at this point. He just makes up things as he goes along and tries to maniuplate people's word as he sees fit. It is not the first time he has done such nor will it be the last. I cannot help the fact he's a complete moron without any ability to reason with his own mind.

I never said that stealing was ok. Please do not go around and say that I did. I don't condone it, nor do I approve of it. I simply stated reasons as to why it happens that can apply to any LS. Twisting my words into something that a whole linkshell is based on is complete bullshit. You are getting the Firestreak syndrome. You've been reading too many of his posts I guess.

Should I change it to your name next? Feeling froggy?
 
decidence said:
After a couple weeks of under 1hr kills on Kirin, BoL's last Kirin we had a crisis occur (someone called for help on Seiryu while in Full Alliance) which caused a full wipe with Byakko and Genbu BOTH up running around. We managed to keep sending people in to die while tanks recovered and less then an hour later we had a new Osode recipient.

The fight is never over until a LS decides to quit.
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QFT


Still feel like you didn't steal Fire? And who you calling a hypocrite? Maybe you should go back and reread your own 2nd grade post, it's obvious you didn't understand it. I guess the copy and paste off of http://www.nick.com didn't help you much.
 
Arien said:
Did some people in my LS do something shady? Yeah, they did. Do I care? No sir.
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From your own mouth. I figured I would answer your question.

Firestreak said:
(your views being fuck everyone I'm stealing whatever I want
Arien said:
And I said this where?
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This is where you say (paraphrased by Firestreak) that you don't mind stealing.

Go ahead and change your title if you want to give me that kind of power over your life. I mean, if you feel that way, more power to ya. It's already clear you don't mind letting others affect your morals, why stop there?
 
Like I said, I never said that I approved of it. You just proved me right. I said that I didn't care that it happened. Two different things eh? It did not affect me, nor did I have anything to do with it. Please do not make assumptions on other people's statements. You see what it does to Fire, he has a bad habit of that as well. =/

Bigboy said:
It's already clear you don't mind letting others affect your morals, why stop there?
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No idea what you are getting at there. I stick by my morals, just because someone else does something doesn't mean it changes anything that I believe in. People get stolen from everyday, do I think it is right? No I don't. But 99.9% of the cases where it happens does not affect me nor do I know about it. Therefore I do not care. That still doesn't change that I believe that it is wrong. It changes nothing for me.
 
I changed my title to make you happy. Hopefully it will bring some joy to your day. And Fire's too. Lord knows he needs it.
 
Sorry, but if you don't care, and ignore it when the people around you do bad things, it makes you bad. By not saying anything, you are approving of it, and at the very least accepting the fact that you may be branded a thief with them.

The only thing worse than evil people are the good people that let them get away with it. At least they know what they are doing and are just acting in their nature, but if you know its wrong and choose to ignore it you aren't just being untrue to the people who were hurt by the act, but you are being untrue to yourself. Indifference is not a defence, but a lack there of.

If everyone had your level of indifference on the subject, sky would be a complete slaughterhouse and no one would be able to do anything at all. It is only because some people do step in and say they will refuse to steal, that they will refuse to be in a LS with thieves and bad people, that there is any order in sky to begin with. Firestreak explained what happened in that Kirin fight, and the person who stole left the LS on their own. He voiced his opinion on it, and it hasn't changed in this thread. Repeatedly he says stealing is wrong, and there is little more that could be done about the Kirin in the past. But your indifference towards this in one post, and then saying how you are against stealing in a later post, contradict each other.
 
Bigboy said:
Sorry, but if you don't care, and ignore it when the people around you do bad things, it makes you bad. By not saying anything, you are approving of it, and at the very least accepting the fact that you may be branded a thief with them.
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Lol no. That makes no sense. How many times must I say this, I was not there. I had nothing to do with it. Stop trying to make me out to be the thief. Jeeez how hard is that to understand.

Bigboy said:
The only thing worse than evil people are the good people that let them get away with it. At least they know what they are doing and are just acting in their nature, but if you know its wrong and choose to ignore it you aren't just being untrue to the people who were hurt by the act, but you are being untrue to yourself. Indifference is not a defence, but a lack there of.
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Congratulations on having a deep thought. :thumbsup: Totally unrelevant.

Bigboy said:
If everyone had your level of indifference on the subject, sky would be a complete slaughterhouse and no one would be able to do anything at all. It is only because some people do step in and say they will refuse to steal, that they will refuse to be in a LS with thieves and bad people, that there is any order in sky to begin with. Firestreak explained what happened in that Kirin fight, and the person who stole left the LS on their own. He voiced his opinion on it, and it hasn't changed in this thread. Repeatedly he says stealing is wrong, and there is little more that could be done about the Kirin in the past. But your indifference towards this in one post, and then saying how you are against stealing in a later post, contradict each other.
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Fire only explains things from his point of view and therefore thinks everyone should feel the same way. It was stealing and he knows it was but he continues to go along and state how stealing is so wrong. Yet he paints the picture of himself being a complete saint when it comes to the matter. Read Deci's post, and they go back and read some of Fire's logic and to why it was ok to "steal" Kirin at that point. Yea, he's a hypocrite. For damn sure.

If you want to say "and there is little more that could be done about the Kirin in the past", then isn't this topic in the past? Yes it is. So I guess there is little that can be done about this situation as well?

And never did I contradict myself, just you two trying to twist my words into a situation that I did. Sorry, but that doesn't work. I'm not about to pull a Firesteak and totally change what I'm trying to say by interpreting my statements in some other way. I said that it was wrong but also that I did not care. Two seperate statements, stop trying to form them into something they aren't.
 
Arien said:
Lol no. That makes no sense. How many times must I say this, I was not there. I had nothing to do with it. Stop trying to make me out to be the thief. Jeeez how hard is that to understand.
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The technical term is "Tacit approval". You weren't there, you didn't perform the act yourself, but you profited by it nonetheless and failed to act out against it. Tacit approval. Much like the rest of Valkyrs if they're willing to defend the action of the thief in question.

For the love of god, grow a pair and admit that a.) you stole Ulli, b.) your LS is cool with that, and c.) if the same situation happens again, you'll do the same thing. This whole thing has been a truly bizarre exercise in justification. "We stole, but it's okay, cuz other people steal, but we're not bad, it's their fault for losing claim, I wasn't there, but I don't care anyway, blah blah blah."

And yes, I do tend to hold the LS as a whole responsible in events like this. The LS profits, the LS is responsible. Someone breaks LS without being punished, the LS is responsible. Etc, etc, etc.
 
So fire didn't actually steal the Kirin, and you didn't actually steal this NM. But he is wrong, and you are right? It occurs to me that you don't actually want to read what people are saying and automatically assume that since I say something you dissagree with I must not have read you post right. I can tell you right now I never said you were a theif, only that you associated with them and supported the notion. In a sense, I called you a thief waiting to blossem. You are not opposed to the idea, but have yet to do it.

You can say that you aren't going to take back your words and "pull a Firestreak" but in essence you already have, even if you say you haven't. You have given 2 different opinions on this topic, and they wont be erased just because you say it doesn't mean what it so obviously does.

You seem a little hypersensitive about the notion that you could be partially to blame. Just to clarify: You did nothing, this particular incident was not your fault. But, don't go off on other people about how awful they were and how much of a hypocrite you feel they are, when you have yet to turn to your LS leader and say "Hey, I think what you did was really shitty, and I don't approve."

Fire says now, reguardless of what he thought in the heat of it, that he feels what happened then was shitty and that he didn't like it. It does not make him a hypocrite to then say in this thread, that he feels that this theft was also not shitty.

It has been a long enough time since that Kirin for Firestreak's opinion to change and not make him a hypocrite, but a growing person instead. That amount of time has not yet passed for this theft.

I don't think I can make myself much more clear than that. Hopefully you can see how this all relates. If not, there is little use in talking further to you. You're more interested in fighting than debating.
 
Ok so let me change my arguement. It's not that you approve of stealing, you don't care if it happens or not. You accept stealing, under any circumstances.

I accept taking over a mob from a wiping LS. I don't accept stealing under most conditions. You're the one who called me a hypocrite, how am I a hypocrite? Even if it was possible for them to recover, it doesn't change my views on acceptable conditions to take claim.

So someone CFH on Kirin? You wipe on purpose. You let some people log off. You die somewhere you can raise. I've been in that situation, it happens. When your alliance is all dead in the middle, 3 pops are running around and your tanks are all eating dirt it's a different circumstance.

As I've said, those are my conditions at which I think it's ok to take the claim. It's completely arguable that my possible is not moral. You can argue my position is selfish. But that doesn't mean that I don't HAVE morals. You don't care your LS just ripped another LS off period, when their fight was going fine. What morals do you have to judge me on?
 
And yet again, the burden to proof the hypocrisy you accuse me of is on you. I never accused you of being a hypocrite here. I accused your LS of doing something I consider wrong. What your LS did and my LS did was not the same thing, and I've always stated I view stealing OK in the circumstance of an LS wiping.

When a group wipes on ulli and you take it, and then I call you a dirty thief, then you can call me a hypocrite. Because that's me professing a view that I obviously don't believe.

That's the condition for being a hypocrite. Being as I don't profess the view that's stealing, when I accept it as happening then I am not being hypocritical. I don't know how many times and how many ways I have to explain this too you. Apparently Little Timmy and Little Jimmy aren't sinking in yet.
 
Raesvelg said:
The technical term is "Tacit approval". You weren't there, you didn't perform the act yourself, but you profited by it nonetheless and failed to act out against it. Tacit approval. Much like the rest of Valkyrs if they're willing to defend the action of the thief in question.
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i want to point out not everyone profited.
 
yanzi said:
i want to point out not everyone profited.
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Everyone in the LS profits from having yet another person with slightly better gear to aid them in future fights. Not everyone got paid out or anything, but thats more drops they shouldn't have had and another step closer to kirin they shouldn't be at, which will benefit the LS as a whole even more.

Sure they didn't just payout the LS, but everyone benefits in the same way a PT benefits by having their members in pimp gear.
 
Firestreak said:
Direct and indirect profit. Someone gets an Osode, Laur moves up a notch on the list. More time to farm sea, Yanzi closer to merciful cape.
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last i checked, laur has an osode. last i checked, i don't have sea, so how can i farm?
 
Bigboy said:
Everyone in the LS profits from having yet another person with slightly better gear to aid them in future fights. Not everyone got paid out or anything, but thats more drops they shouldn't have had and another step closer to kirin they shouldn't be at, which will benefit the LS as a whole even more.

Sure they didn't just payout the LS, but everyone benefits in the same way a PT benefits by having their members in pimp gear.
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you're assuming there is a drop, and if there is a drop, the recipient uses it for particular job during a ls event which would prove useful/beneficial.
 
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