When can we finally nuke North Korea off the face of the planet?

[masamura]

{Taking a break}
Gotta run for a few hours.. Will be back in probably 12-13 hours or so

 

[dedalius]

Half a trillion is way less than what it actually is. It's more like 8 Trilion. Source

We're in a war. You spend money in a war. It doesn't suprise me at all that we're in debt.

Now, I have no solid evidence,

End.

 

[Kyle]

A couple sources have said the long range missile they launched that failed after 40 seconds, was aimed for the waters off of Hawaii based on it's trajectory. Is this guy retarded or what? -.-

 

[Galaika]

We have the right to carry Nukes, they are unstable and do not

According to who? America? I trust Bush as much with his nukes as I trust Kim Jong Il with his.

 

[Daveman]

I say NKorea should give up its nukes when America does.

Forget a bit of history?

Nuclear weapons were developed and used in WWII, the radiation side effects weren't fully understood and was seen as a way to save lives. We may never know if the two atomic bombs saved more lives than it destoryed by ending the war with japan early, but regardless that was its purpose. (Japan had clear warning something was comming, and they were given time to think after the first bomb)

From that point on it would of been utterly stupid for the United states to stop developing nuclear weapons since russia had many spies and would quickly gain their own weapons. The cold war happened, without a major war (on the scale of WWII), mainly due to nuclear weapons.

Now that the cold war is over, many nations have nuclear weapons.

Tell me at what point is it wise for the US to give up its arsenal? What would first have to happen is every nation to get rid of its arsenal, and no nation wants to be first to scrap its weapons because that makes them lose the leverage nuclear weapons have in diplomacy.

It's all but impossible to have a world without nuclear weapons at this point, the best that can be done is limit the amount of people with them.

According to who? America? I trust Bush as much with his nukes as I trust Kim Jong Il with his.

I don't think many people are losing any sleep over the possibility of America dropping a nuke on them, but I'm sure there are quite a few people worried that North Korea just might target their city.

 

[Firestreak]

A few points.

1. Us and the Soviets both having nuclear weaponry in fact prevented a third world war from ever occuring. The reason being is what's known as mutually assured destruction.

The concept says roughly, if nation A has nukes, and nation A is losing a war, then nation A will use nukes. Hence 2 countries with nuclear weapons have never fought, because they both know that fighting will lead to nuclear warfare inevitably.

Hence who knows how many hundred of millions of lives were saved because both of us had nukes.

Here's the little problem.

Mutually assured destruction is a concept that only works with rational thinking leaders who are concerned with the possibility of millions of their people being turned into dust.

As to why we didn't invade North Korea while we did invade several countries in the middle east?

Well, believe me, there's a far more rational explanation as to why we never invaded North Korea, actually, there's a billion reasons why. The population of China and the likelyhood that a war with North Korea would have resulted in a war against China. Iraq and Afganistan never had ally that could throw 100 million soldiers at you. Now that the nuclear program has alienated China from North Korea, it's somewhat late. The time to act isn't after they show they are a nuclear power, it's before - and whose administration let the boat sale away?

Clinton.

 

[dedalius]

According to who? America? I trust Bush as much with his nukes as I trust Kim Jong Il with his.

Bush may not be the smartest man alive, but he knows that nuclear war is not a good possibility.

 

[Torqameda]

According to who? America? I trust Bush as much with his nukes as I trust Kim Jong Il with his.

The U.S does have a right to nuclear arms, because as Fire said:

1. The U.S had nuclear weapons, in order to create means of protection against the Soviets. Therefore resolving the conflict, for both sides realized Hell would be there to pay.

2. Pres. Bush is not the smartest person. C's at Yale, and so on. Quite frankly though, it takes a f'ing shit load of pressure as president. And why he hasn't nuked everyone is beyond me. He is able to keep his composure, and understands that a nuclear entanglement is just out of the question, especially at a time like now.

3. Now, forgot who, someone said that if we have nuclear bombs, they can have them. Well, look at responsiblity. The U.S and Russia are currently disarming a significant portion of our warheads. Disarming, for all your ignorant people, means that they dismantle the warhead, and destroy its capability to be used as a WMD. And quite frankly, the U.S isn't threatening the world with them. N. Korea is.

4. France has them, U.K has them, Israel has them, Russia has them, U.S has them, N. Korea has them, and so on.

Oh yea! N. Korea's Trapbong 2 (Dunno how you spell it) was sent to create an impact zone in the ocean close to Hawaii. In spite of the explosion this missle faced seconds after it launched, it just shows that N. Korea is going all out. By the way, this information came from Japanese-U.S compiled information in radar, and spy satelites. (Check MSNBC, or the Japanese Newspaper =P).

And just to note on insanity versus genius.

Adolf Hitler was a mastermind in strategy. Smart as you could possibly fathom. His intentions were definitely in the wrong place, but he was brilliant when it came to politics and combat.

Jong is the same way. He is a little bit crazy, and power-hungry (As seen on T.V), but he is like Einstein (Per say). Now the world knows that Jung has the capabilities to create missles that could threaten the current world powers, and upset this balance.

And at the current time now, we can't put any sanctions on N. Korea, for China and Russia all of a sudden are against it. And knowing the U.N, the majority of it will hate the U.S even more than they do now if the U.S were to place sanctions on N. Korea.

In other words...

Get Kofionon, or whatever his name is, out of his damn seat, walk him outside, and throw him in the ocean. He needs to be gone.

 

[Tiael]

Fuck North Korea, this sounds like a job for Team America: World Police!
But in all seriousness, I doubt they're gonna actually do something other than flaunt their nukes, but we'll see.

 

[dedalius]

Fuck North Korea, this sounds like a job for Team America: World Police!
But in all seriousness, I doubt they're gonna actually do something other than flaunt their nukes, but we'll see.

That's the problem. You doubt. With the current nuclear powers, you know.

 

[Raesylil]

Why not just get a team of snipers and assasinate the man?
Seriously take the head out and then the rest of the body will die.
There would be anarchy of course but hey...

But seriously, having nuclear weapons isnt the answer to me.
If every friggin country has them its just gonna take a stupid
ruler to push that button and set them off at another country to get the WW3 started -.-
Because well, every country has some allies and they have that
"if you mess with me, they will mess with you" sort of idea.
Using nuclear weapons or bio-weapons as leverage is just plain extortion in my opinion.
Thats like having a gun put to your head and be forced into some sort of agreement that you dont really want...which does happen alot in politics im assuming.

Diplomacy, while it may not seem effective does have some merits.
When diplomacy doesnt seem to be giving the results you want when you want it.
...thats when people start screaming for war, it seems.

China is not gonna be relying on the U.S. and nor will they in our generation.
They know how other countries rely on the U.S.A. for alot of things and to them I think is an act of shameless dependence.
The world's economical capital may be New York City at the moment but I'm guessing it will be moved to somewhere in China or close to it some time in the future.

So then the next step is to make nice with China for the time being.
Lets see how long that will be.

As for the nuke them off the face of the earth?
Go to Hiroshima and Nagasaki before you even talk about that.
There are people there who still live with the effects of those two bombs.
There are people there who curse and hate Americans for that.
Even if you survived the blast, the black rain after the blasts are still deadly.
The tips of your fingers start to get on fire and there's no way to put them out. Your skin falls off, hair falls out.

Its been 60 years since those bombings and you dont think they have forgotten do you?

Its a very devastating after-effect.
I dont know if you have but I have read books, seen photos of the effects
of the atomic bombs. Its not just a huge mushroom cloud.
Its way way more than that.
Most of those pictures were taken by American soldiers.
How do you think that looked to them?

America didnt have to bomb Japan twice. Once was enough.
They dropped two of them within the span of hours.
And the result?

Total devastation.

Do we really need another one like that?

My answer would be a no.

 

[dedalius]

America didnt have to bomb Japan twice. Once was enough.
They dropped two of them within the span of hours.
And the result?

If by span of hours you mean three days then sure.
Just a quick timeline of what happened:

July 21, 1945 President Truman orders atomic bombs to be used.
July 26, 1945 Potsdam Declaration is issued, calling for the 'unconditional surrender of Japan'.
July 28, 1945 Potsdam Declaration is rejected by Japan.
August 6, 1945 Little Boy, a uranium bomb, is detonated over Hiroshima, Japan. It kills between 90,000 and 100,000 people immediately.
August 7, 1945 U.S. decides to drop warning pamphlets on Japanese cities.
August 9, 1945 The second atomic bomb to hit Japan, Fat Man, was scheduled to be dropped at Kokura. However, because of poor weather the target was moved to Nagasaki.

Basically, we say we're going to use nukes,
5 days later we say "Japan stop this now or we're going to fuck you up"
2 days later they say "stfu"
9 days after that we bomb Hiroshima
The day after we drop warning pamphlets
They still say stfu
2 days later we drop the second bomb
They say zomg we surrender

Second, it's already been mentioned atleast twice in this thread that the term nuke doesn't refer to nuclear weapons. It refers to bombing the shit out of them.

 

[Raesylil]

Well either way it doesnt really solve problems does it?

Wars dont necessarily solve anything.
The repercussions are gonna still occur and how they are resolved is going to be an issue.
Heck Iraq is still having repercussions despite the "liberation" America gave them.

How long has that been going for?
How much longer will it go on for?

 

[dedalius]

No, wars don't necessarily solve anything.

But are you going to sit there while some lunatic waves a gun around when you have the means to stop him?

 

[Sarion]

Stop feeding the troll. Masa knows literally nothing of history or politics or he'd have bowed out a while ago. If this keeps up I'll view back in a day or two and utterly squash any and all thoughts he has in one post.

Bush may suck, but we do damn good. Don't like it? Tough.

*edit* This made me laugh, hard.

Well either way it doesnt really solve problems does it?

So you get terribly on your point and come back with "yeah well..."
Actually it did solve problems, they surrended right quick didn't they? Please stay the hell out of political discussion when you hold no facts or knowledge. ^.^

 

[mrtaru]

Fuck we're going to be dead before we blms get to nuke Korea up ><!

 

[Pompidou]

I'm not sure "nuking North Korea off the face of the planet" is the best idea. Nuking Kim Jong Il and his supporters off the face of the planet is a workable concept, but there are a lot of innocent civilians in N. Korea who couldn't do anything to stop their leader even if they wanted to. Propaganda is pretty powerful, after all. Arrest Kim Jong Il and give him a fair trial. It worked in Yugoslavia and it was one of the few good points in the war in Iraq (whether the war was right is anyone's call, but Saddam deserved to be arrested and put on trial). I'm in favor of a raid with special forces and arresting the leader. Heck, let China take control of North Korea. China might have it's flaws, but it's certainly a stable and rational government. Kim Jong Il is beyond rational processes. China is a nation we can bargain with at the negotiating table like civilized nations do. They aren't becoming powerful by being stupid after all.

 

[Numa]

What right do We have to police the world? And why shouldnt a country have the right to defend itself? America is far from righteous. America created Osama Bin Laden, training him to kill Russians. GW senior propped up Saddam Hussein and supplied him with his arms in order to kill Iranians. The current administration has declared War with countries without the burden of proof, jails peole without trial, flaunts the very rules it supposedly upholds.
Now the world recognizes that Kim Jong Il is a truly crazy SoB. Hes kidnapped japanese from their own beaches to train spies. He runs his country like a prison. He seeks world domination in the craziest Dr. No kinda way, but despite the sheer numbers in soldiers, He really doesnt have the technology to be a real risk on the world stage. Until He has a nuke for and capable of reaching every country on the planet, He cant make an aggressive (just annoyingly threatening) move. But even if He did, America has lost much Moral credibility. We simply dont have the manpower or international support to do anything.

And I know Nukes seem like an easy answer, but consider this.

Nagasaki 2 days before Fat Man

Nagasaki 3 days after

This is what ppl looked like a few miles away.

edit
*pulled the image - was way too graphic to post. But if you have the stomach, the link is here*

http://www.ecolo.org/photos/visite/hiroshima_02/Hiroshi.aBodyBurnt7-8_3000m.jpg


Id prefer the suffering of nuclear holocaust stay in the history books.

 

[Mishaela]

All this crap reminds me of Gravyard of The Fireflies.


I wouldn't place a load of trust in US history books anyways, they only place crap that empowers the US in it. Chances are you won't find a single US History book in the classroom that talks about when the Yellow...er...Whitehouse got burnt down, for example.

 

[Khajit]

If by span of hours you mean three days then sure.
Just a quick timeline of what happened:

July 21, 1945 President Truman orders atomic bombs to be used.
July 26, 1945 Potsdam Declaration is issued, calling for the 'unconditional surrender of Japan'.
July 28, 1945 Potsdam Declaration is rejected by Japan.
August 6, 1945 Little Boy, a uranium bomb, is detonated over Hiroshima, Japan. It kills between 90,000 and 100,000 people immediately.
August 7, 1945 U.S. decides to drop warning pamphlets on Japanese cities.
August 9, 1945 The second atomic bomb to hit Japan, Fat Man, was scheduled to be dropped at Kokura. However, because of poor weather the target was moved to Nagasaki.

Basically, we say we're going to use nukes,
5 days later we say "Japan stop this now or we're going to fuck you up"
2 days later they say "stfu"
9 days after that we bomb Hiroshima
The day after we drop warning pamphlets
They still say stfu
2 days later we drop the second bomb
They say zomg we surrender

Second, it's already been mentioned atleast twice in this thread that the term nuke doesn't refer to nuclear weapons. It refers to bombing the shit out of them.

I'd like to note that it wasnt the atom bombs that made japan surrender. The Russian army decided to get into the fight and having an army with over 1 million people in it ataking thier asses scared em. Japan was already losing as it was before the russians got involved and having such a huge army bearing down on thier asses in addition to all the people they were already fighting was too much. I cant remember where i saw this but i think it was discovery channel. I know it was some random eucational show at least. Basically the first 2 bomb drops were completely uneccesary as far as stopping the war with japan. They were just overkill

EDIT: I like to note that I should thank god noone remembers about Bermuda My country will at least be compeletely ignored during anything that happens and we're just close enoug to the usa to get protected since any attack on Bermuda is close enough for the usa to mistake it for an attack on them 99% of the time. Now if only I could figure out a way around the whole only enough food for 3-5 days without importing.