Who gives a **** about sneak attack?!?!?!?!?!

[Skc]

History:

It all started when the party decided to go to Qufim to continue to lvl after it’s success in the Dunes. The pt consist of the following: Nin,Whm, Thf (Monkey), Thf, Mnk(me) and another job. Location of the camp is at the famous pond, killing worms.

In the process of slaughtering all the worms available to us, we have the entire area as there were no parties within the vicinity. We all know that the blink tank needs to recast Utsusemi during a battle. Now if blink tank gets hit while trying to cast Utsusemi, it’s more then likely that it’s going to get interrupted. With that being said, as I’m the Mnk/War I find it that it’s my duty to voke it off of them, to let them cast it without interruption and continue to tank as normal. Because of the fact that I was doing just that, it would throw off his, sooo important, <sneak attack>. He then expresses his frustration and I let him know why I’m doing what I’m doing. He says nothing to acknowledge my justification on why I’m voking it off the tank, so I continue to do as is. He then once again expresses his frustration towards me. At this point, the Ninja was longing as they had to work the next day – the pt disbands.

Since I was tired of his ranting and ignorant ways, I decided to send him a tell informing him that he needs to cool off. This is where the fun part starts. I clearly express that he’s acting like a noob. The he replies that he’s accomplished certain lvl 40+ requirement quests and missions (I don’t recall exactly what he said). He then once again expresses the fact that I was “Fucking up his and the other thief’s <Sneak Attack>” I informed him you really need to pay attention on what’s happening to the ninja during the battle. He continues his little Rant and ends it with the notorious “stfu”. I responded to his name calling was quite immature of him; I think it hurt the little monkey’s feelings when I said that as he continued. He ended the convo, by this time an argument, with another tarnished statement; blist <yes please>. (Please Blist me, I don't fucking care if you do.)


To all the little Monkeys on this server: “Reasoning” is the key to all success.

I’m going to break down my thoughts on why I did what I did and see if it makes sense.

Let’s say I didn’t voke when I you did your sneak attack – Woo pie you did 50+ damage.

Consequences:

Tank gets hit a couple more times => Mages gotta cure him more (they use more mp) => then I can voke => ninja can cast Utsusemi => they voke it off me. mages gotta cure me (for when I voke next time I have enough hp)

This is a result of excessive usage of mp.


What happens if I voke and you wait for your shitty 50+ damage.

Consequences:

I voke off tank => Tank cast Utsusemi=>Mages cures me => Tank vokes off me.

This is a result of mages keeping their mp. Thief performs sneak attack.

*Bonus* => Blink tank keeps full hp in case something fucks up, because of a monkey, during the fight + mages having kept their mp = better chains in the long run.

Now pls, Can anyone validate why the second choice is wrongfully planed out. If so, I’ll /bow and “Stfu”. If not………


Skc

 

[Theorist]

No.. you are right in most instances with a two voke PT.

Ideally, what should be happening pre-Ni:

- NIN tanks until his shadows are gone. He then tells his partner to voke before he takes damage
- Partner vokes and keeps hate until NIN recasts Utsusemi and timer gets to around 15 sec. Mages lay off high hate spells
- THF SATA's onto NIN, NIN vokes to increase hate. Mages cast high hate spells
- Repeat

With 2 THFs, I guess the other guy could cycle in and they could have taken turns doing SATA off the NIN. Really though, 2 THFs in a PT is sub-par They are needed but 1 is enough.

 

[Kelsilv]

I agree that a Thief needs to be aware of what's going on tanking-wise, especially when in a PT with a pre-37 NIN(which co-tanks at best, which seems to be what you guys were doing), but was there any reason you couldn't have simply stood on the same side of the mob as the NIN? Or were you, but slightly to the side?

Either way, the thief should have taken into account the voking pattern and just worked his way around it.

 

[Chouzan]

You're right, for the most part. The only thing I try to keep in mind when voking in that kind of setup is this: If the mob's positioning doesn't change too much during a secondary voke, then everyone is happy.

So, if I'm a secondary voker working with thieves, I usually crowd the main tank.

 

[Kurgon]

Yup, if there is a thf in the party, I am usually right behind the tank or just off to the side so that the mob doesn't turn much, if at all when I provoke.

 

[Duffman]

oh man, it is morning at work....i just can't read that huge
post. However, I like the title "Who gives a **** about SA?"

I'll come back later today and read it.



I can't stand working with most thieves. I said MOST not ALL.
Most thieves:

"you stand here. now you do this. I do this. that guy does that.
we all do the hokey pokey and turn ourselves around....."
40 seconds later (exageration) the THF FINALLY pulls off the SATA
and we all can get back to normal fighting.

more professional thieves will give you simple instructions and
pull off SATA very quickly so you can get back to your job.

With a good THF it is not so bad, but I tire of the endless bossiness
and time involved to set it up.

 

[buell]

sneakypants = good thf.

when he comes into our camp he's already used SATA and all he has to do is wait for the initial voke, the tank to get in position and then he pulls out his cute little dagger and wham seals hate. the key to doing this is getting it done FAST. i'm a drk and often i get the duty of the initial voke so they can SATA onto the tank. often they take to long and i will end up saying that i won't voke anymore. sneakypants is so fast i often would only take one hit.



typical = bad thf.

i honest to goodness had a thf get behind the tank to do SATA and then he... ATE FOOD!! meanwhile i'm taking hits up the wazoo and i dont take hits well. this is the same person that purposefully would SATA onto whoever he could. once he did it onto the whm. yes you heard me the WHM! and he knew he did it. if a thf is bad at SATA and i get hit to much then i am left in a position where i can't use any of my special abilities such as souleater or berserk or if i'm sub thf my SA+WS. yes SATA is a very strong hit. but if i kick in souleater i deal quite a bit and i'm not going to gimp myself so that a bad thf can redeem his existence.

 

[Sneakypants]

THF needs to be aware of many things...What's happening with the tank is one of the biggest concerns a THF should have.

Just Sneak Attack alone is no big thing...More coordination is necessary once THF gets Trick Attack.

THF and tank should be friends. Both need to work with each other.
Sneak Attack is not the end all, be all...Especially in Qufim. :lol:

 

[Sneakypants]

sneakypants = good thf.

when he comes into our camp he's already used SATA and all he has to do is wait for the initial voke, the tank to get in position and then he pulls out his cute little dagger and wham seals hate. the key to doing this is getting it done FAST. i'm a drk and often i get the duty of the initial voke so they can SATA onto the tank. often they take to long and i will end up saying that i won't voke anymore. sneakypants is so fast i often would only take one hit.

Thanks, B.
/bow

I try, but I make mistakes too. DAMN YOU CORONA!!!!
:lol:

I wouldn't be effective unless you were though.
So we all rely on each other.

 

[Glacius]

You're right, for the most part. The only thing I try to keep in mind when voking in that kind of setup is this: If the mob's positioning doesn't change too much during a secondary voke, then everyone is happy.

So, if I'm a secondary voker working with thieves, I usually crowd the main tank.

Cheers to you!

Regarding strictly SA, I don't understand why this was such a big issue. If the mob was moving to disrupt SA, then whynot position yourself beside/slightly behind the NIN so the mob remains somewhat in line. This way the THFs can SA freely and everyone is happy.

Seems like a fairly simply solution to me...

 

[Direwolf]

In the defence of THFs:

All they have in life is SATA Viper bite/dancing edge when they get high.

Other then that they do craptasticly poor damage. Only thing they have going for them is Treasure Hunter. (Which is nice higher lvls for keys (most beetles drop them for some reason) and Silk threads from crawlers) They realy need to get SA off otherwise they are an EXP leech and are easily replaceable.

Now on the flipside they should be helping the tank keep hate and he should time his SA so that he does it right before the ninja vokes off the secondary tank.

 

[Sneakypants]

Other then that they do craptasticly poor damage.

I personally can't agree with that. I hit often, and I get crits often.
No, each hit is not like that of a Warrior's great axe, but over time I am doing quite a bit of damage...Especially when I SATA roughly every minute. Gear matters, and many THFs don't pride themselves on gear. Ultimately their damage output will suffer.

 

[Direwolf]

Yes post Tripple atack with Ninja subed THFs start doing decent damage, especialy post 50 with the dual weild bonus, however I have always prefered a Dark knight or a Samurai to a THF. I like to think I know a decent amount of THFs, my bro is Jonason and to say I have heard him complain is to understate things. And no he does not have gimped gear and he is REALY good at his job.

 

[Sneakypants]

I would just say then, it must suck to be a THF that can't cause damage.
I don't share that problem.

 

[Fellina]

In defense of thieves, I can say with verifiable proof that THF can be a DD class in the 20-40 range. Our static had a Galka THF/NIN with pimp gear (hairpin, leaping/winged boots etc.) and he was matching (and sometimes exceeding) our Mithra DRK (also with pimp gear) for damage output.

And I have proof: here's a link to the parser logs from those fights.
http://www.animelyrics.com/sbacon/ffxi/stats/
Serus is the Galka THF, Rappa is the DRK. Other party members are BRD (me) BLM (Yomi), WHM (Morari), PLD (Osse). Any other names were strangers that slipped in, and should be disregarded.

 

[Fellina]

Addendum to previous post: I just rechecked those parser logs (it had been a while since I last saw them) and realized the THF was ALWAYS outdamaging our DRK. Not by much, granted, but he was always the #1 DD in the list. Heh.

 

[Skc]

I agree that a Thief needs to be aware of what's going on tanking-wise, especially when in a PT with a pre-37 NIN(which co-tanks at best, which seems to be what you guys were doing), but was there any reason you couldn't have simply stood on the same side of the mob as the NIN? Or were you, but slightly to the side?

Either way, the thief should have taken into account the voking pattern and just worked his way around it.

Regarding strictly SA, I don't understand why this was such a big issue. If the mob was moving to disrupt SA, then whynot position yourself beside/slightly behind the NIN so the mob remains somewhat in line. This way the THFs can SA freely and everyone is happy.

Seems like a fairly simply solution to me...

You're right, for the most part. The only thing I try to keep in mind when voking in that kind of setup is this: If the mob's positioning doesn't change too much during a secondary voke, then everyone is happy.

So, if I'm a secondary voker working with thieves, I usually crowd the main tank

For the most part, i was to the side of the mob, not more then 45 degree of an angle from the Tank. But it must've completely slip my mind that I could stand to the side/behind of the tank(I was tired and the attitude of the thief hindered my thoughts). Thx for the input guys.

never the less, If you got a fucking problem with something/anything with what someone is doing, come up with a solution or just simply STFU. I can't stand ppl that like to fucking complain and yet do nothing about it. Fuck God gave you a brain, use it for once. Monkeys!

Skc

 

[Direwolf]

I think I was mis-interpreted, my fault probaly happens to often to be otherwise. A Thief in GOOD gear (LL boots and emperor Hairpin) can easily do nice numbers in damage ESPECIALY if they get SA TA WS in the Skillchain. What I was trying to say is that they have to spend alot of gil and work very hard to compete with the other "Filler" jobs. Do I think it is a bad job? No one of my best friends is a THF and does nice damage, its just he needed to get some expensive items to get that way.

Having good gear and taking your job seriusely makes all the diffrence in how well you perform in a given feild.

For example a properly equiped Samurai can be a far beter tank then a mediocerly equiped Paladin in Qufim. I know cause the Paladin could not get the hate off of me (had like 30-40 more defence then him so I did not care, him and his crappy lizard armor)

 

[Mohoso]

Ok I play THF in game and I figured out very early on to conform for the most part.

As a "Support" character it is very important to adapt.

A THF can play a number of ways but just needs to work on his feet.

I hardly ever have questions when in party due to the fact that I know what I need to do in most situations. You (Thieves) all know what your role is if not you shouldn't bother with THF. It can be a pain in the ass sometimes, but that fact of the matter is You are a support character. Damage incurred on yourself should not concern you unless of course the rest of your party is dead.

THF's typically are the last ones to get a heal as you really don't need it during most party battles unless tons of enemy AoE spells and abilities are being used. THF's just don't create enough hate on THEMSELVES to be worried about it.

They should be concerned on the other hand about a good SC with SATA behind the main tank. The question that should enter the mind is how can I get more hate to this Fuckin Pally or tank?

Then deal with it.

For the most part a good party can utilize a THF to the best of its abilities, and a good THF will know when to use those abilities.

I prefer THF over any other job I have played to date but have come to learn that they are becoming yearned for less and less.

So with that comment...

To all people who can't play THF, DON'T! Stop giving the rest of us good ones a bad name you fuckers!

Thanks and have a nice day,

Mohoso

P.S. This was quick and not though out at all just let the mind and fingers do the talking here so.....don't take too much personal mmmkay?

 

[Xelos]

To all people who can't play THF, DON'T! Stop giving the rest of us good ones a bad name you fuckers!

I have to agree with Mo. Even though this may have already been regurgitated to DEATH, I must say that it is important for people to have a little bit of common sense.

I really hate it when people get their thief to 15 and think that they are "1337" because they get an ability that looks and sounds cool which; at the same time, finally gives all thieves an actual job in a pt.

So, being a thief myself, I know the ropes pretty well. I do my homework (I post here on QCDN, and read many many many many forums like alakhazaam, killing ifrit, IGN vault, etc. I will admit that at some lower levels I had to learn from some mistakes, but I LEARN from them.

These "monkey" thieves apparently think that once they do sneak attack they will eventually hit the mob for their added damage. So they probably zone out or look over at the TV or something. Then they realize they miss, and start freaking out like the noobs they are.

What a thief needs to do is focus on the tank (and the ranger at later lvls). If the mob as much as flinches, the thief should immediately toggle auto-lock off, or disengage so that he can move around without wasting the SATA.

Idiots who abuse thief by acting in their newbish ways don't deserve to progress as thieves. They will probably end up quitting the game because it is too hard for them or that they cannot "hack" for gil. That's too bad, because IDIOTS cannot and will not survive in a game like this.


/bleh!