Why Summoners = Main healers.

Firestreak

Firestreak

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An Argument Towards Why SMN should main heal.

Well, first off, please understand I’m not doing this out of disrespect for the Summoning class, as I am as simply someone who is tired of the majority of a job refusing to do what they are most capable at.

The first argument I’ll do away with.
“My cures are weaker.”
With the right MND gear, the cure cap is quite easy to reach. The only thing you seriously lack is access to the higher level cure spells most effective WHJM never use during a battle and regen(which is awesome but you have other strengths).
Next up…
“If I spam Cure 1/2/3 I’ll get hate….”
This is just blatantly wrong. The weaker the cure spell the less the chances are of getting hate. Ask any high level white mage. As far as being more MP efficient, yet again, most WHM still don’t use their highest-level cures except in dire emergencies. I accept the fact that some SMN don’t like not having that for the emergency, and often feel like they’d be more effective if they were a WHM, but, as I said, they have other strengths.
“Summoners can’t take hits.”
That one is true. Less HP than WHM, I wouldn’t main heal on SMN without a trustworthy tank. A PLD or a 37+ Ninja should be fine. In fact, with the Ninja, a summon is quite preferable to a whitemage.

Now I’m going to get into some numbers here. First off, I’ll say this is a question of SMNs effective MP use, direct comparison to other jobs is merely based on mp/dmg ratio, cure or damage avoidance, ext. SMN have the most MP and at 25 they also get 1 MP per roughly 2.5 seconds(if you watch closely it actually changes).

Cure 1, 30 HP, 8 MP => 3.75 hp/mp
Cure 2, 90 HP, 22 MP => 4.09 hp/mp
Cure 3, 180 HP, 46 MP => 3.91 hp/mp

Well admittedly Cure 4 has a slightly better ratio, it also has an added provoke effect. WHMs should never use Cure 4 anyway. As for cure 5, I won’t argue it’s a great spell. It’s also level 61+ only. At that point SMN should have Fenrir and some effective bloodpacts to offer up. But if needed can still main heal. I’ve seen it done effectively even at 70+ when SMN have “come out of their shell” so to speak.

No Raise 2 or 3. Sucks. For the most part it’s the risk the tank is willing to take if they are agreeing to have a SMN main heal.

Ok, let’s look at a few bloodpacts and guage the effectiveness of a SMN who uses bloodpact every minute.

First let’s agree that if the SMN only has Carbuncle they have nothing to add to the party but healing. And I’ll agree if they have Fenrir they have some slightly more effective blood pacts.

Level 10: Blood Pact Blizzard 2.
40ish Damage usually. 50 on an MP if you’re lucky. High chance of resist and 20ish damage.
24 MPs. Let’s say fairly, 1.7 dmg/mp ratio.

Blackmage, level 13, Fire 1.
50ish damage. 13 MP. 3.846 dmg/mp Ratio

Fire recast time: 10 seconds.
Bloodpact recast time: 60 seconds.

Blackmage can cast other nukes in those 10 seconds. SMN can only heal or regen MP.

Level 19. Blood Pact Thunderspark.
This is the most powerful offensive blood pact for over 10 levels. It’s the standard used for SMN nuking.
100 dmg > 150 dmg by level 30ish. MP Cost, according to Alla it’s 38, but to me it seems more like 50. But I’ll say 38 for the sake of argument.
Let’s say 120dmg/38 MP => 3.2 dmg/mp
Yet again: 60 second recast

Level 17 Blackmage, Blizzard
90ish dmg/30 MPs. Recast: 11.5 => 3 dmg/mp
Blackmage can cast Fire between Blizzards. It creates hate yes. So does curing.

Rolling Thunder, level 31 Blood Pact.
Duraction, 60 seconds.
1-3 dmg added per hit to all melee. It seems like an affective way to deal damage, since those extra 1-3 points are yours. Even with 4 melee, Through 60 seconds it will NOT add up to 100 damage. No where near it. Evem if it did, at 52 mps, that’s less than a 2 dmg/mp cost.

Level 29 Pact Frost Armor.
Same as above, only it’s by how often the mob hits you. Even less damage caused. 68 MPS!!!

Aeriel Armor, This would be great, except for one thing. It’s 92 MPS!!! It blinks away 3 hits per member, which usually means, 3 hits from your tank, and nothing else. Let’s be extremely nice and say you’re fighting a 80 dmg/hit goblin. That’s 240 damage saved. 240 hp/92mp. That’s a 2.6 ratio. Way worse than even cure 1. And for the most part mobs won’t hit that much / hit unless something is wrong.

Hastege: Considering the 20 recast timer, a WHM could just cast hate on 3 melees in 40 seconds. 1 > 20 sec > 2 > 20 sec > 3. It will last lmuch much onger, be more effective and only cost 8 more MP. Hastega has been thoroughly owned.

All this being said, what’s the clencher? In addition to the bloodpact cost. You have to throw an addition 8 MPS onto every bloodpact cost inherent because of summoning the avatar. Then tack another 15 or so for perpetuation cost thanks to having to walk the avatar over, use the pact and then release it. So in a real battle situation the actually effectiveness/ mp ratio ratios are quite a bit lower.

Can they do more damage without pulling hate onto themselves? Yes the avatars soak up the hatet instead of the summoner. Then again, if blackmages only did the damage of summoners, they wouldn’t be pulling much hate too. That’s what tanks are for. You want to tank about parties without a tank? I’ll take the summoner any day. But that has nothing to do with a normal exp party.

Thank you for reading. Sorry if I pissed off any Summoners. Just trying to help you see your own job as I see it.
 
Wow, you really did your research. I have never played either whm or smn (or any mages class as a matter of fact, should try it) so I'm not gonna get on this.

But I just wanted to applaud at the effort to finally have some numbers in this eternal debate! :)
 
I don't understand how this proves that SMN should main heal other than they have more MP and MP regen..
 
Of course, if you only compare damage done with BPs to damage done with BLM nukes, you're not gonna see impressive results. You need to add in damage done with melee attacks. Plus if the avatar has more TP, they do more damage with spells and abilities. You're right in saying that SMN isn't supposed to be the main damage dealer in a party, but saying they're only good at main healing is just wrong. I have a partial static with a SMN, and I've seen her in action. She does act as main healer most of the time, but is also good at support (Earthen Ward is great against bomb-happy goblins, Aerial Armor can save a trigger-happy RNG or BLM when they accidently pull hate, Ecliptic Growl and Ecliptic Howl are great stat-boosting abilities, etc), and at opening SCs (Blood Pact is the only "weapon" type to have an attack in every single box in the SC chart, except for the level 3 SC area).

Also, a SMN should walk up to the party before summoning the avatar if they're gonna use a beneficial BP. And they should have as many of the elemental staves as possible (each staff is -avatar perpetuation cost if using the avatar with the matching element; don't know the numbers offhand, but I do know the HQ staves have a bigger effect).

Finally... cure 2 is 24 MP, not 22.
 
look, smn's, especially with fenrir are beatsticks.... period. no more. he hits as hard as your melees and the bloodpacts are PHENOMINAL party support... smn should never be wearing mnd + gear when they could be wearing MP +.
actually, let me just say this so you can move your brain past the dunes.

THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR A WHM. NOT EVER.
SMN should supporting, damage dealing.

RDM should NEVER be confined to a main healing role. they were MADE to enfeeble and at a later point refresh.

AND FOR THE REST OF THE GODDAMN NEWBIES OUT THERE A WHM SUB IS NEVER a main healer. not ever.
 
Sethala said:
Of course, if you only compare damage done with BPs to damage done with BLM nukes, you're not gonna see impressive results. You need to add in damage done with melee attacks. Plus if the avatar has more TP, they do more damage with spells and abilities. You're right in saying that SMN isn't supposed to be the main damage dealer in a party, but saying they're only good at main healing is just wrong. I have a partial static with a SMN, and I've seen her in action. She does act as main healer most of the time, but is also good at support (Earthen Ward is great against bomb-happy goblins, Aerial Armor can save a trigger-happy RNG or BLM when they accidently pull hate, Ecliptic Growl and Ecliptic Howl are great stat-boosting abilities, etc), and at opening SCs (Blood Pact is the only "weapon" type to have an attack in every single box in the SC chart, except for the level 3 SC area).

Also, a SMN should walk up to the party before summoning the avatar if they're gonna use a beneficial BP. And they should have as many of the elemental staves as possible (each staff is -avatar perpetuation cost if using the avatar with the matching element; don't know the numbers offhand, but I do know the HQ staves have a bigger effect).

Finally... cure 2 is 24 MP, not 22.
Click to expand...

I dont think he is saying they SHOULD be main heal, he is saying they are capable of it. I personally LOVE a Smn in the right setup. However, I have run into several that simply refuse to heal. They cast their avatar, do a BP, and /heal the rest of battle. Sorry, but that is just leeching xp.
 
What about Erase, Stona, Haste, the bar spells, Dia, the -na spells, teleports for the party, etc etc. a WHM is always a better choice then a SMN as main healer, that being said I think SMNs have alot of potential towards the party if they have Fenrir because he is rediculuse.
 
SMN don't -have- to be main healer, true. But they do a danged good fine job of it, especially if they have a backup healer. I partial static with a SMN, RDM, and soon a THF (I'm a DRK), and the party works just fine. Yes, she can't let Fenrir out all the time to do some good damage, but she does a good job of giving out both offensive (Hastega, Ecliptic Growl, Ecliptic Howl, etc) and defensive (Aerial Armor, Earthen Ward, Ecliptic Howl, Eclicptic Growl - yes, I know I listed those twice, they're both offensive and defensive) buffs. When possible, she's even more of an SC master than a SAM (as I said before, she can open or close literally any SC aside from the ones in the level 3 SC area of the chart, as long as there's someone to open/close it with her). She also has a rather big bag of tricks with all the different BPs.

Oh, and her 2hour is a heck of a lot cooler than a WHM 2hour, end of story :P

Anyway, my point: yes, SMN can be main healer. Are they as good as WHM at being a heal machine? No. Should they do things other than be main healer? Yes. But if your party needs a healer, would they be willing to invite a SMN over a WHM to be that healer? Possibly, because while WHM is the best at being main healer, SMN are able to be a good main healer -and- support.

Edit (because I didn't see Alanon's or Direwolf's posts until after I posted this): I agree, Alanon. A SMN should be willing to use their subjob's spells in addition to avatars. I was saying that they shouldn't be only main healer, which is what it sounded like the OP was saying. Direwolf, SMN has Erasega (Spring Water), Hastega (Hastega... yes, that's the name of the BP), and Stoneskinga (Earthen Ward, and it's arguably better than bar-element spells). Plus all of the spells you listed are given with WHM subjob if your main is high enough. Also, if a teleport is -that- impoartant, chances are you wind up near a nomad moogle so you can switch to WHM main, teleport the party, then go to the moogle and switch to your normal main. Or just hire one of the WHMs farming in Jeuno to teleport your party.
 
Direwolf said:
What about Erase, Stona, Haste, the bar spells, Dia, the -na spells, teleports for the party, etc etc. a WHM is always a better choice then a SMN as main healer, that being said I think SMNs have alot of potential towards the party if they have Fenrir because he is rediculuse.
Click to expand...


The party setup of which I speak is a high-level nin tank led party.

Erase - Blm and Rdm have it
Stona - meh, just dont xp on those mobs
haste - Rdm has it
bar spells - Rdm an Blm have it
Dia - Rdm have it
Teleports - the useful one if altep, but I can switch to Whm, tele and change in rabao. Yhoat would be a pain.

Dont get me wrong, I love a whm. But in a really good, high-level, nin tank led party, Smn as the "main" heal just offers more.
 
Are you seriously suggesting that avatars melee?!?!?!?!

Listen, I have fenrir, and I know what he's capable of melee damage wise. Almost as much as a DD. BIG DEAL. He attack speed is SLOW SLOW SLOW, worse than a great sword. His accuracy is worse than a sam with no accuracy or dex gear. Those DDs aren't costing craplods of MP/sec to keep out and they save their TP after battle. Avatar TPs go away, unless you just burn it at the end of the battle regardless of how awkward the timing is.

SMN are capable main healers. Not better than WHM, but different. Try not to forget there are 15 jobs and to say only 1 of them is an effective healer is BOGUS. Sometimes SMN are better than WHM, but it depends on the setup. For example, Nin, Rdm and XXX. I'd pick the SMN personally. They can main heal for the Ninja easily. The RDM can handle haste. And with the sapre MPs the SMN will have because Ninjas require little healing, they can do effective bloodpacts in addition to their healing duties. For example earthen ward is great to a Nin party. It protects the first voker for SATA, it protects the nin between utsus if needed, and it protects any potential hate loss.

But at this point I usualyl refuse to invite SMNs. They only want to use avatars and frankly that alone isn't worth a party slot. I'm so sick of them getting annoyed and leaving, even when them as main healer is good xp and they never take a damn hit.

Whoever says there is no substitue for a WHM is incorrect. Yes through subjob they get some status cures later, but for all camps they aren't needed. Teleports are also not often needed. In fact they usually aren't. RDMs can main heal too. Some of the best xp I've ever gotten is with dual rdm setups. This is me speaking as a 62 WHM here...

Not ALL parties need a whm. If that was true there would be only 6 jobs and every setup would be exactly the same. Just look statistically. It just isn't possible for 1 job to be in every party when there are 15 different jobs. That attitude is just plain ignorant. In fact, my best xp ever has been with no WHM. It's the infamous RDM and BRD PT. Refresh and ballad,
I'm just here to show you why toe to toe I don't see blood pact happy SMNs doing what's in the best interest for xp/hour. If you have Fenrir, yes, maybe we'll talk. But even then not always.
 
A SMN isn't as good as a WHM for main healing and isn't as good as a BLM for nuking, so they should main heal? Is that your argument?

I think what you're implying is that a SMN is more valuable to a party as a gimped healer than they are as a gimped nuker. In any event, this is not the ideal use of a SMN in your party. SMN's are versatile, and making them main heal ignores their other strengths and contributions they can make to a party.

The only reason SMN's are invited to parties as main healers is because WHM's are hard to find. Invite a SMN to your party sometime when you already have a main healer and see what they have to contribute. I think you will be surprised.
 
Fire, I do agree with you that SMN make good main healers, but if you think that's the -only- thing they're good at, you're missing out on what may be an even more versatile job than RDM. They can be main healer, they can be support, they can be DD, they can be a skillchain master, heck - the only thing they can't do is hate control. Yes, a SMN that does nothing but melee with avatar, or that summons, uses a BP, and then heals until it's ready again, is just dumb. But a SMN that knows how to conserve MP and what BPs to use when can be a very powerful party member.
 
if your party only wants raise 1 instead of raise 3, i won't even bother faulting that statement... odds are you'd end up begging the whm in the next party over for higher raises because the party members threaten to HP if they don't get it...

Nobody really expects most blms to have erase, most rdm sub blm and i thought the only way to get erase was whm or whm sub...?

Dia the RDM should be handling anyways... enfeebling is their department leave that to them.

Haste there's a large interval between when whm gets it and when rdm does... and rdm has enough to think about without keeping hastes up.

Have to agree with the stona bit...
The bar spells they mentioned were the bar-ra spells, blm has none without whm sub and rdm only has single target bar-spells. for the same mp the whm could give 6 people barsleep as it'd cost the rdm to do one.

Teleports- they can be circumnavigated by ls friends or even paid tele's but it can get pricy so....

but really good arguments alanon. counter my counter-counterpoints :P
 
I believe smn are healers too...


I've gotten it to 70, and spamming cure 3 over and over got to me. No, you don't get hate, I never get hate. I didn't even have much mind gear and my healing was always at cap (in amount healed). I agree, I used to think about it a lot.... until I realized that smn were probably meant to be healers and all you smn out there that don't see that are in denial. Sure, we can solo nice outside of pt, and can do some nice ass damage at higher levels. Our buffs are cool too. But in a XP pt all these come down to is stuff to agument our healing ability. Look at the ninja and pld case. Smn have mucho mp, autorefresh and a strong clear mind, the pay off is like of higher level whm spells. Our avatars help be a but more versatile.. hastega (which whm can do) and various stat buffs from fenrir. However what an avatar can bring to an xp pt is not enough. I myself find myself a wasted slot, a bard for example would be a much much much better choice. That's why IN ADDITION to healing these avatar abilities make us useful to pt's.

A lot of my smn friends are strongly against this... I'm sorry but I just don't see smn being good at anything else inside a pt.

I have yet to see a smn come up with a good use in a pt for smn other then healer. They only, besides whm, can main heal so well. Avatar damage is largely gimped on xp mobs... at times doing the same as a pld... the BP cost mp and are more often then not useless in damage, at least not enough to warrant solely using them since you have to use them a min. apart. In my thinking.. here ist he pt layout. Notice it seems S-E set it up (or didn't, who gives a damn it turned out that way) so one classes doesn't have a monoply on a trait.

Tanks: Ninja and pld

DD: Samurai, Dragoon, Drk, War (deal damage in their unique way, samauri in SC, Drk in pure power, war in versatility, and drg with dragons and jump and crap. Speedy damage.)

Healers: Summoner and Whm

Refreshers/Dispelers: Rdm and bard

Super DD: Blm and Ranger

Other: Thf and bst (Beast do their solo thing, and thf are the item/money guys. I really do believe SATA was tossed in so they would have any value ina pt, because it is all they bring to a pt and all of their abilities revolve around money or not figting. I.E: Flee, Mug, Steal, Gil finder, TH, TH2, Hide. I find it interesting that only 2 of their abilities bring any true worth to a pt, unlike say war, with provoke, double attack, Attack bonus, def bonus, warcry, defender, berzerk ect.... Tripple attack really does not count because daggers are not a damage weapon)


EDIT
Sethala said:
Of course, if you only compare damage done with BPs to damage done with BLM nukes, you're not gonna see impressive results. You need to add in damage done with melee attacks. Plus if the avatar has more TP, they do more damage with spells and abilities. You're right in saying that SMN isn't supposed to be the main damage dealer in a party, but saying they're only good at main healing is just wrong. I have a partial static with a SMN, and I've seen her in action. She does act as main healer most of the time, but is also good at support (Earthen Ward is great against bomb-happy goblins, Aerial Armor can save a trigger-happy RNG or BLM when they accidently pull hate, Ecliptic Growl and Ecliptic Howl are great stat-boosting abilities, etc), and at opening SCs (Blood Pact is the only "weapon" type to have an attack in every single box in the SC chart, except for the level 3 SC area).

Also, a SMN should walk up to the party before summoning the avatar if they're gonna use a beneficial BP. And they should have as many of the elemental staves as possible (each staff is -avatar perpetuation cost if using the avatar with the matching element; don't know the numbers offhand, but I do know the HQ staves have a bigger effect).

Finally... cure 2 is 24 MP, not 22.
Click to expand...

I want to say something about this without double posting... Anywyas...

I'm sorry but you are wrong. BP do not do enough damage and you can only do damage every min with BP. Normal avatar damage is horrible, around a damage a pld does. EVEN WITH TP, they damage increase is crap. At most maybe 5 more damage. Perhaps 10. Not enough. I wish smn can spam BP as you are suguesting but it just can't happen... Stoneskin and blink are in reality useless. They only assist, a slight support that for around 200 mp buys you maybe a few seconds of no damage to the tank. Yes, it's useful for the other melee should agro go on them and whatnot, but it's not good enough to warrant constant use. Melee are not mages, they can take a few hits, and if they are getting hit a lot something is wrong with your tank. Stoneskin is semi useful with a ninja tank, to help in the between utsusemi time's. In god pt's I find I am only able to cast 2 buffs about before the first one runs out, which near the end ended up being fenrir's last 2 buffs, accu up and that all stat bonus. And even then it was between heals. I remember back in the day when I was naive, and all I did was buff and support heal... Those buffs are pretty mp expensive even for a smn... 180 mp I believe for hastega. Without resting between buffs a smn will run out of mp pretty fast. Leaving an avatar out to attack and also use BP... Which still is not enough. I had a Smn/blm in my pt, the only real alt to whm sub really... I mean what else would you use... rdm? Ha... Maybe bard.. Bard might work. Anyways he claimed to be a DD and I almost puked... I told the pt to pick up a pld, we'd have the same damage going but at least the pld can heal and tank...

I know a lot of the summoners I know might get pissed at me for saying this.. I'm sorry guys, I personally don't find anything wrong with healing, I accepted it unlike most of you. I still love smn, but I'm done with it, it reminds me too much of whm and I'm a power lusting person. Alone, I own monsters. In a pt, I keep them alive so they can be powerful... and in ballista, I join the whm's on the ass ownedage bench... god damn S-E made Ballista so anti mage now, though it was unbalanced in the mage's favor before. Still... now it's a melee mostly game. If you notice there is now way to protect mages, the melee on the other team just all gang up on the mages, kill them fast, and go score. So hard to protect the mages almost no point in having them as they end up being a weakness.... A blm might cause some harvic, but he just draws a ton of "hate" (lol) to himself.. and of course all mages hate to hell rangers.

Anyways, this is how I feel.. sorry guys. It's so hard to be a whm like this and then play FF7-10... look at the summonons and summoners there... and go "WTF happened..." Yeah I know, balance and all that shit. oh well.
 
resipsa I'm saying they make a decent main healer. They lack a few spells but they have more MP and a built in refresh. There is something to be said for that. Not to mention many of the status affects they lack can be cured all at once by a certain bloodpact that leviathan has.

Sethala, I've played SMN to 30 with Fenrir. I've PTed with countless SMN at higher level, both as main healer and not. I would say the simple math I did on the bloodpacts compared with different spells done by both WHM and BLM holds true to all of my experiences. If anything I would say the mp/effective ratio of bloodpacts is in fact much less in a real xp party. Considering on an IT mob how disgustingly bad offensive spells are resisted usually.

Should SMN be turned into a blood pact casting machine through updates? I guess. It seems to be what most SMNs pray for. But then I think more jobs will have to come out to compensate through lack of healers considering so many mages are so selfish about it. You guys are worse than WARs who refuse to tank. No wait, no one is worse than them.
 
from the SMN POV (which i have little experience in).. the became summoners to play at being a summoner... do you use a paladin as the second voke? no, he's the tank. Why do we use the summoner as something they aren't? most of them started summoner after being whm for 30+ levels, if they wanted to main heal, odds are they'd stick with whm.
 
Blackchaoshero said:
from the SMN POV (which i have little experience in).. the became summoners to play at being a summoner... do you use a paladin as the second voke? no, he's the tank. Why do we use the summoner as something they aren't? most of them started summoner after being whm for 30+ levels, if they wanted to main heal, odds are they'd stick with whm.
Click to expand...

The problem is, that a Smn that *only* summons is a waste of a party slot. Again, a Smn is a prefered main healer in a Nin tank party. If you have never seen a good nin tank, let me skip the specifics and say, the WHM is bored! When I say "main healer", Im saying the few times the Nin actually takes damage, you are the one to throw the cures. The rest of the time, Smn away.

This combo, is why I prefer a Smn healer in this sit, we get both healing and useful smn buffs and abilities. If a Smn is uncomfortable with that role, I guess I WILL replace you with a Whm and you can continue sitting in jeuno, lfg.
 
Yes to support SATA I guess. Besides the damage it's only really useful to ninja as any pld worth his salt can keep hate, and I've had ninja hold hate from Freeze. After 60+ SATA isn't as good as drk can easily do about as much damage, and even if they can't they can do more DOT. I'm not anti thf I want to level it myself someday, but still the facts remain.
 
Seems like the debate now isn't if SMN should be main healer, but if they should try to be anything other than a cure-bot. I suppose it depends on the party setup, mainly, and also what you fight. If you've got a RNG/PLD/SMN/DRK/WAR/SAM party, and the SMN is the only one that can heal, then yeah, I'd say they shouldn't worry about buffs with BPs. In a RDM/BLM/SMN/PLD/WAR/RNG party, there's other people to help "pick up the slack" if they spend MP on a beneficial BP, as the RDM and BLM (if subbing WHM) can toss out a few emergency cures if something ugly happens while the SMN is busy buffing. And the buffs that should be used depend a lot on the target and party (and, in Fenrir's case, the current moon phase). During the right moon phase, I think Fenrir gives +25 accuracy or more to the whole party. That's 5 sniper's, or 2.5 jack-o-lanterns (I know some melee are using those instead of mithkabobs or other +attack/+STR food).

Anyway, out of all the different roles in a party (healer, DD, support, SCs, tank, hate control, etc) SMN is best at being a healer. But that doesn't mean it's all they can do.

But there is one point I think we're all agreeing on: SMNs should do more than just have avatars melee and use BPs.
 
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