Why Summoners = Main healers.

My best advice could be to lower the cost of the avatar. The TP system won't have a meaning if you spend more MP before actually do anything. The current system increases your upkeep cost. Perhaps reversing this, to have a reasonable high cost at start, and lowering at the end. Maybe with full items that lowers the upkeep cost makes it free to keep them without any cost of mp. At the very least mp issue would be solved, and summoers can use their summons as pets like the bsts.
 
Oh I'm sorry Konartist, we shouldn't keep a thread going that discusses the dynamics of game balance attempting to define an entire job as opposied to threads about who may or may not be a racist, or who looks "hot" in real life.
You know... in a messageboard... about a game.
But we all know how much you pay attention to the game you're playing.
http://www.qcdn.org/viewtopic.php?t=3204
Yeah, just in case you didn't see it buddy.

And Lokkin, it's my opinion now that SMN are a fine job. They are just... main healers. It's what they do. All of the summoners on this board that have discussed have found themself in the role of main healer at this point. Though they disagree if they are the best main healer in all parties, the point is that they can do it and in most of their opinions, they seem to think they do a damn good job of it. In my opion, what additions should SMN get?

Carbuncle should get raise at 30 and raise 2 at higher levels. (maybe level 65, because WHM have to actually pay for it).

To be honest, that's the only glaring weakness I see, as to why I'd rather have a WHM over a SMN. I understand at lvl 25 the light spirit can raise with enough +CHR, but I'm not positive if I've seen it(I think I have). Maybe the light spirit can do it higher levels as a Raise 2... has anyone ever tried? Any high lvl SMNs here tried equpping lots of +CHR gear and seeing if light spirit with raisee 2? It's be an interesting test.

So Lokkin, if SMN avatar strength is increased, how do you restore balance because of the fact they are in fact too powerful if they are main healing and their avatars are doing as much as a regular DD, all while the hate is spread among themself and avatar so they aren't get hit? That seems a bit overpowered to me. Maybe you'd have to give avatar hate to the summoner then. Then what do we have? Another job clone that is exactly the same but has impressive looking animations cause of the avatars looking cool.
I honestly like it as it is now. SMN are already the most powerful main healer with a blink tank, because they can main heal and do so much more than any WHM could because of hate limitations. As so many SMN point out here, if you make them more powerful you turn them into fearless killing machines(that still have the power to main heal). The entire power of the job is because of their subjob. It'd be like if you make PLD melee so strong they're worth playing without being a tank. Or maybe they can provoke as PLD / NIN. It's just too strong.
 
Firestreak said:
Oh I'm sorry Konartist, we shouldn't keep a thread going that discusses the dynamics of game balance attempting to define an entire job as opposied to threads about who may or may not be a racist, or who looks "hot" in real life.
You know... in a messageboard... about a game.
But we all know how much you pay attention to the game you're playing.
http://www.qcdn.org/viewtopic.php?t=3204
Yeah, just in case you didn't see it buddy.

And Lokkin, it's my opinion now that SMN are a fine job. They are just... main healers. It's what they do. All of the summoners on this board that have discussed have found themself in the role of main healer at this point. Though they disagree if they are the best main healer in all parties, the point is that they can do it and in most of their opinions, they seem to think they do a damn good job of it. In my opion, what additions should SMN get?

Carbuncle should get raise at 30 and raise 2 at higher levels. (maybe level 65, because WHM have to actually pay for it).

To be honest, that's the only glaring weakness I see, as to why I'd rather have a WHM over a SMN. I understand at lvl 25 the light spirit can raise with enough +CHR, but I'm not positive if I've seen it(I think I have). Maybe the light spirit can do it higher levels as a Raise 2... has anyone ever tried? Any high lvl SMNs here tried equpping lots of +CHR gear and seeing if light spirit with raisee 2? It's be an interesting test.

So Lokkin, if SMN avatar strength is increased, how do you restore balance because of the fact they are in fact too powerful if they are main healing and their avatars are doing as much as a regular DD, all while the hate is spread among themself and avatar so they aren't get hit? That seems a bit overpowered to me. Maybe you'd have to give avatar hate to the summoner then. Then what do we have? Another job clone that is exactly the same but has impressive looking animations cause of the avatars looking cool.
I honestly like it as it is now. SMN are already the most powerful main healer with a blink tank, because they can main heal and do so much more than any WHM could because of hate limitations. As so many SMN point out here, if you make them more powerful you turn them into fearless killing machines(that still have the power to main heal). The entire power of the job is because of their subjob. It'd be like if you make PLD melee so strong they're worth playing without being a tank. Or maybe they can provoke as PLD / NIN. It's just too strong.
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That's exactly what you are saying, it's a job clone of whm, with shiny lookin avatars.
 
First off, there is a historical argument for Summoner as main healer in terms of FF. While it's true that, for example, Yuna would do powerful Aeon attacks, was there one character besides her that was given cure magic? I'll admit her avatars were way overpowered, but she was most assuredly the "whitemage" of FFX. Summoners have always had healing magic, and usually they were the main healer. The difference here is that those summoners could do ultra powerful attacks on a constant basis, summoners of FF can't. They get 1 thing alone that is really strong, and that's their 2 hour astral flow. Astral flow is definetly worth using. But flaming punch and axe kick ughh, [No Thanks.]
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Rydia was a SMN/BLM. Does that mean that SMN/BLM works? How about Rosa? She was RNG/WHM. And Cecil was DRK/PLD.

Sorry, just couldn't resist pointing out the flaw in that logic.

As for making avatars stronger... yeah, they do need to make them a little stronger. Maybe decrease BP costs, as that seems to be Fire's main complaint. Or maybe have a seperate BP timer for each avatar - then you can summon Fenrir, use Ecliptic Howl, dismiss him, summon Garuda, use Hastega, etc. Then again, that might be too strong... maybe just boost avatar melee? They can't really decrease the cost, as then a SMN can just summon an avatar and have it melee while being main healer (they could potentially do that now, but it's very MP-intensive).
 
Sanjo Renomitsu said:
You are taking things a bit too literal. Anyways, you are still wrong in a ways. You, as a smn, have no real weakness AS A HEALER, per say. I didn't say anything about not telling the pt to level in gar. or anything. If you have to go, and if you think you can not handle stuff like jetstream, which even whm have problems dealing with, then do not join. I'm sorry, but besides if there is a ninja or there no real need to heal, if you are in a pt you are a waste of space or filler due to lack of anything else.
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I don't even know why you play summoner Sanjo, you sound like you absolutely hate the job and would much rather be playing a WHM. The last 10 or so levels I've had 3 real options for leveling, The Nest (no thanks), Gar Citidal with BATS or the Quicksand Caves with beetles and SPIDERS. 2 of these locations are usually pretty empty and I find myself hard pressed to find a raise of any sort. Excuse me for knowing my limitations and weaknesses.
As for the "But besides if there is a ninja...." comment, are you even reading what I'm posting? NOT ONCE did I complain about main healing when there is a Ninja, not once have I had any problems whatsoever with a NIN. I LOVE MAIN HEALING WITH A NINJA. I hope you actually read that comment as I capitalized it for you....maybe if you miss it this time I'll make it bigger and bold it for you. I have problems main healing with a PLD tank. As mentioned before, everytime I party with a PLD I'm either blowing through 900+ MP in 2-3 battles WITHOUT USING BLOODPACTS or me/them are getting killed way too often.

Sanjo Renomitsu said:
If you have to, get a rdm or brd, to help you heal in those early cases, because being the smart people we hope we are, we forsee this, as clearly you do. Even as rdm in Boyada Tree our tank would die over and over, and yes he was a good tank. Our whm just couldn't keep cure 4ing him or keep his hp high enough at all times so the spider doesn't pull off a sickle slash + normal attack and kills the pld. EVEN WITH ME helping heal it was a problem at times, despite your healing power creatures with those type of abilities are a pain in the ass, so do yourself a favor and stop using those as an excuse. Any leader with a brain makes a point to avoid them, no one goes "Jeeze, lets fight spiders because crabs are much safer". The way you sound, it's as if you fight those types of mobs 1-75 :roll: I've only fought spiders in tree once, at 50's, and bats in gar. And I've gotten to 70 just fine.
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White mages don't use Cure 4 right? I mean they totally don't need it right...? :roll: Have I fought a lot of bats from 1-51? Hell yeah, have I fought spiders in my last 10 levels? YES! Did I tell my party I think it would be a bad idea? Yup. But frankly when you're down in the quicksand caves and you've killed EVERY beetle in the zone your party isn't going to wait 6-8 minutes for them to pop every time. I don't know...maybe I just leveled during a bad time as the areas I hit were either EMPTY making it impossible to find a raise or they were so packed that you couldn't find mobs to fight...let alone the ones you prefer. I'm sorry but I'm only 1/6 members in my party and sometimes what I say just doesn't go.

Sanjo Renomitsu said:
Mages do not need your stoneskin and blink, they should not be getting hit. Even then, almost all of them can cast it themselves except int he lower levels. In which stoneskin and blink is even less of worth. It doesn't do the melee any real good either, you'd be using your mp to more worth with hasetga. I'm sure your bliz 2 for 300 damage on MB is amazing.... I'm sure it's worth anything more then a rdm's helpful burst to add that small little extra damage. In the end, all your BP are perks, as I have said, and I'm sorry. It's fact. With the 1 min limit none of your BP have enough value alone to warrant you useful in a pt, unless you have no reason to heal like a good ninja tank. It would be saying whm is worthwhile to invite just because of haste, silence, bar spells.. ect.. and because they can heal formost.
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Mages don't get hit? What planet are you from? Are you sure you're playing FFXI and not some other game that sort of resembles this one? I've seen BLMs get hit after landing a really nice burst, I've seen DRKs get hit after causing just a wee bit too much damage, same goes for RNG. These 3 classes I party with A LOT. To boot it's usually with a NIN tank and it's sometimes just really easy to pull hate before SATA goes of when you have a bad pull or some junk like that. I've watched that Stoneskin save my parties asses so many times it's not even funny. Besides if I'm ending Chain 5s with 300 MP to spare, WITH A NINJA TANK why the hell not? I mean it doesn't hurt my party at all and if I was having MP issues, I WOULDN'T BE DOING THEM!

Once again I ask you why the hell you even play this job if all you do is cure? Wouldn't you be more effective as a WHM you know...without using a job 1/2 the level of your party? I use both my main and my sub to benefit my parties. Yes I am a kick ass healer but know my limitations and what situations my job/subjob are best in.

Sanjo Renomitsu said:
As for your calling on cure 4.. They speak the truth. Cure 4 is rarly used. I as a rdm only use it when I convert on myself, or when something goes wrong and someone needs life saving. Don't use that you have a bard as an excuse either. If you cure 3, and he cure 3's, the effect is about as good as a cure 4 >.>. It's true, whm hardly use cure 4, if you think that is bull from your own experiences, you might want to rethink just how good your pt's/static are/is, because the problem is far more likely in your team mates.
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Now this is really where you rubbed me the wrong way. My team mates are amazing, when we get a good tank we get nothing but compliments. A bad tank can ruin even the best back line of mages you could possibly get and frankly in my level range at this time we're having a bitch of a time finding TANKS let alone good ones. In situations where we've had good tanks we've had absolutely NO downtime in parties, so please until you actually play with my team mates don't call them a problem.

I'd just like to take the above mentioned Cure IV comment and refer to one of your above paragraphs where you mentioned your whm using cure IV....In an emergency situation which I believe is when I said I really missed it..? I've only been partying with my static BRD and BLM from 43-51...sooooo from 10-43 I was partying with random people. Black mages who don't cure "Because they are black mages'" Melee RDMs that don't cure because they are too buisy dishing out the damage, PLDs who don't sit or they will lose their tp, hmm I wonder why I felt so inadiquate as a healer.... :? Now I don't know if you just missed moron wave on your race to level 75 but I must of just caught the wave because I've been in a lot of parties where if you're main healer...you're the ONLY healer.

Sanjo Renomitsu said:
You are a smn, as people say. Dispel and refresh is NOT A RDM THING, because bards can do it too! If you think healing is a WHM THING, you are wrong. That is the point. You are a smn, not a whm. That has nothing to do witht he fact that you are main healer. To be truly honest, and I am not tying to be offensive,sounds like your group is pretty bad. First of all, any protect is better then none, even if you don't have a rdm, the pld can buff himself, and any important person like puller. -_- Second of all, you can do anything a whm can do that's any worth to a pt save a very very few things, which do not matter much. I'm talking like curing a few stats pre erase/spring water. Oh well most whm don't have erase anyways.
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When the hell did I say healing was a WHM thing? When did I say I wasn't main healing? At what point did I completely lose you? I mean Firestreak got what I was saying and I think we both kinda understood that we were arguing the same point but it seems to of flown right over your head so lets go over this again... Do I think I'm a great main healer? YES. Does my static kick massive amounts of ass? YES. Can a bad/innapropriate tank ruin my capabilities as a main healer and make my static not function? YES. The whole point of all my posts is that it's un-fair to ask a summoner not to summon at all. I never said it was unfair to ask a summoner to main heal as they are pretty damn good at it but it's not the only thing we do. You should be using your main to compliment your sub and vise versa. Summoners are support characters, NEVER have I thought summoners have been massive damage dealers even before I took on the job.
About the whole protect II thing...where the hell do you think I'm getting it from? Mentioned many times before I try to party with NIN tanks. So we have a NIN/WAR, BRD/WHM, BLM/WHM, SMN/WHM...where are you getting this other party members should be buffing themselves with Prot II thing? Or was I wrong for saying I missed it? I didn't know it was wrong to miss an ability that would greatly benefit my parties....

Sanjo Renomitsu said:
You shouldn't need raise unless something goes wrong, in which case (trust me, please stop complaining because I wish I could pt with whm as much as I want to, they are not exactly plentiful in my experiences as sam and rdm) you will just have to try and get a raise, or if you are 50+ deal with raise one. If you die a lot, your group sucks or someone is making stupid mistakes. Leave.
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I didn't know you needed raise unless something went wrong? I mean last time I had a great party it's not like I needed raise or anything...but guess what? Shit happens. Bad links, pops, The party beside you in the nest Pulls 3 rumbler crawlers on-top of you and then escapes out (this happened recently). 3 situations listed above have nothing to do with a bad party but just bad luck, it happens a lot in this game and really, really, really made me miss raise for 50 levels of main healing. Once again I didn't know it was a bad thing to know the limitations of my job/subjob.

Sanjo Renomitsu said:
That's what I'm tying to put across, first of all you people were fighting over if smn are healers or not, good to know you agree at least sab.

End Point: Smn ARE main healers, and if you forsee a few choice problems like having to deal with jetstream, don't be stupid! Find another alternative xp spot, or prepare in advance, like making sure you have someone else who can cure.

Smn's blood pacts = whm's none healing abilities like silence, haste, viruna. Perks which makes each class different dispite both can main heal, like rdm and brd, nin and pld.
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I've covered pretty much everything listed above previously. I never argued that summoners weren't main healers, I just argued the fact that if you expect them not to summon at all be sure to ask if they are okay with this before you invite them. Yes we are main healers but we are still summoners. Summoners like Svina who I've seen in action make me smile, summoners like you make me really bitter...you sound like you belong on ala's boards bitching and complaining about your job rather then enjoying it.

The above bolded statement just solidifies my point. If a white mage is Only using their cure spells they are a shit white mage, any monkey can mash cure III for 3+ hours in a party. When you start using your other abilities to benefit your party and make it run smoother, you bring more to the table as a player and make yourself a move valuble member to your party. Summoners should be main healing and using their blood pacts to benefit their parties.
 
Sabia I agree with you that the party is much better off if it's possible for the SMN to use bloodpacts while main healing. I am however getting the feeling you've partied with some very terrible paladins. I know I did during the level 50-60 block. There is no reason at all that any paladin should generate less hate than the healer who cures them, and they should be supporting the chain with their own cures.
My advice for you is to start looking for a static tank who can get the job done cause it sounds like you've been PTing with loser tanks. Hell I've been killed due to loser tank who's half asleep at his keyboard, just a few levels ago.
Are these paladins - Not curing themselves effectively? Not voking every 30 seconds? Not flashing as often as timer allows? Not with proper gear? Not using food? Any of these reasons will effective kill a chain, paladin or healer. It's not so much if they should be asking you if it's ok for you to main heal. The should be asking, "Is it ok if we have this loser tank who's going to screw up our entire PT?"

As for cure 4, I'll say simply this. I honestly didn't even have it macroed, e.g., I never used it except for typing it in after the battle, until I was level 61. Since I added it in, I've used it twice and both times got hit.

As for mages getting hit. A BLM should pull hate at MOST once per maybe 6 fights. If they are treading the aggro line, which is not a bad thing at all. Maybe it's 200 dmg hit. One cure 3 and the rest'll come back easily with just resting. The only real benefit I'm seeing is a first voker before a SATA. It certainly comes close at least to the MP costs of casting it to the MP cost of curing the damamge. I surrender that to you.
Hell throw the earthen ward at the entire PT and the Ninja gets stoneskin on top of his blinks, the first voker gets stoneskin and the thf gets it but it's useless really. The back row gets it too if they really want it.

As for fighting the right mobs, yet again. If it's your static you guys have control of where to fight. Many of the less widely used camps are in fact the best exp, and many are safe. You are level 51 now, just take my advice and try one of these places. Go to Bostaunieux Obliette. Make sure all members have silent oils because there's lots of undead on the way to camp. There's a great camp right on the zone to Ronfaire. If you don't have the map you can get it doing a very fun quest where you fight pirates on the boat.

I don't think Sanjo hates SMN as much as he hates shitty summoners who = the reason you guys are a low demand job. Honestly Sabia have you ever PTed with a SMN who didn't give a damn about healing and gave you the distinctive impression they just wanted to show off fancy looking bloodpacts? That's 95% of the SMN I've PTed with. If you love your job so much give me a hand here and tell em what they're doing wrong.
 
Fire it kinda sounds like you're have the problem with summoners that I'm having with tanks that aren't Ninjas. I've only every partied with one other summoner in my career (playing SMN and WHM I don't get the opportunity often) and we had a blast. We both did healing duties and did a Fire Skillchain every minute with Ifrit. No downtime with MP issues and the party was a blast, we went through mobs like candy! And I loooooves candy! :twisted:

Summoners that think they are massive damage dealers are tools. I'm just saying I think I'm a more effective member in a party using my blood pacts to suppliment my main healing duties.

Sanjo, I apologize if I said anything personal...you just got me really worked up about the members of my static comments. We are really well equipped considering this is our first time through to 50 and they are kick ass players/people. We've all had requests to join other statics after people play with us, combine this with the fact I've invested well over a year into this little character I have - I get defensive.

You play your way, I'll play mine I suppose. :?
 
Sabia it's not just me, I promise. Check out all the SMN who are seeking with BLM sub. Ask the ones with WHM sub if they hate main healing and assume if they're PTed with RDM it's the RDM's job.
I hate awful tanks too. In fact awful tank pisses me off more than awful anything else. But serious, if you can find a decent PLD I can see you thinking different about the job. Also a fair mention. At level 55 your BRD will get Ballad 2 which is going to increase the hell out of your MP supply. You are gonna be thanking the stars you can do so many cool things as a SMN main healer then because WHM have no way to use all those MPs.
 
If you're going to fight mobs with high-damage attacks (spiders, bat triplets, etc) as a SMN main healer and PLD tank, you probably want another person that can Cure 3 in an emergency. Not having Cure 4 is a bad thing.

What's that? You say it's only used in an emergency, and those emergencies don't happen often?

Tell me, does your house have a fire extinguisher? Does the building you work at have one? That's only used in a rare emergency. Yet they exist, and I believe that there are laws saying that public buildings need them. True, they're only used in a rare emergency, and chances are hopefully you won't have to use them. But emergencies happen, and when they do happen, if you don't have the right tools, people die.

In other words, lacking cure 4 is a bad thing, and not being able to make up for it is also bad.
 
Firestreak said:
Sabia it's not just me, I promise. Check out all the SMN who are seeking with BLM sub. Ask the ones with WHM sub if they hate main healing and assume if they're PTed with RDM it's the RDM's job.
I hate awful tanks too. In fact awful tank pisses me off more than awful anything else. But serious, if you can find a decent PLD I can see you thinking different about the job. Also a fair mention. At level 55 your BRD will get Ballad 2 which is going to increase the hell out of your MP supply. You are gonna be thanking the stars you can do so many cool things as a SMN main healer then because WHM have no way to use all those MPs.
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I know there are a lot of bad summoners out there, I know we didn't get the bad rep we have by being chalk full of great players. I've met a lot of lowbie summoners (this includes lowbie summoners with Fenrir...) that send me /tells and immediately I get the impression that they just want to do Massive damage and look cool doing it. First thing I tell them is that the job isn't for them. I had a /tell just a few weeks ago from a new summoner asking me what subjob is best and why...immediately I told them /WHM is the only subjob for summoner and explained why.

I never expect RDMs to main heal especially after Dispel/Refresh...When I'm in a party and there is no WHM I KNOW I'm main healer. I don't even have to ask...all I want is to be able to use my bloodpacts when I find it appropriate and think it would benefit my parites...I mean is that so much to ask? I think not! However I do expect them to back me up when something goes wrong and if they see me start to summon...jesus cure for 10 seconds! Sometimes this is too much to ask obviously.... :roll:

Just wanted to thank you for making this post though Fire....Calmed me down...

:wink:
 
Sethala honestly Cure 4 isn't much better than 3 in those situations. Cure 4 takes longer to cast, that's the big problem. You need to throw HP onto the tank after he's been dealt a critical like that.

If you want to use the fire extinguisher example. Imagine being trapped ina tiny cubicle and a raging fire is next to you. Do you jump for the fire exstinguisher that takes 10 seconds to activate, or do you throw a huge bucket of water you got next to you. You have 7-12 seconds until the fire engulfs you, and the water pale automatically refills itself instantly. Low HP emergencies are like that. You want to throw the fastest casting cure that will give the tank a few seconds more so you can stabilize the battle. I mean do you really wanna see...
Poortank has been sickled for 843 dmg.
Whitemage starts casting Cure 4...
Poortank: omg no, plz cure me aahhh!!!
Poortank has been defeated.
Bam, that's gotta suck.
 
That's true, and my example wasn't stating that it's the best spell to use in those situations. My point was, there -are- situations where Cure 4 is used, and if there was no Cure 4, chances are someone would have died.

I'll be honest, pretty much the only times I've seen Cure 4 used in an exp party was combined with Divine Seal and Convert. But just because I haven't seen a "Cure 4 or die" emergency doesn't mean they don't exist. I was just pointing out that, while it's only used in an emergency, that doesn't mean it's entierely useless or unnecesary.

Also, while Cure 4 takes longer to cast, after factoring in the delay between Cure 3 recasts, I think it's faster to do one Cure 4 than two Cure 3's. Plus then you can immediately cast Cure 3, as there is no cooldown timer. Or you can do a fast Cure 3, then Cure 4 while waiting for the cooldown timer on Cure 3 to be up.
 
Sabia said:
Sanjo Renomitsu said:
You are taking things a bit too literal. Anyways, you are still wrong in a ways. You, as a smn, have no real weakness AS A HEALER, per say. I didn't say anything about not telling the pt to level in gar. or anything. If you have to go, and if you think you can not handle stuff like jetstream, which even whm have problems dealing with, then do not join. I'm sorry, but besides if there is a ninja or there no real need to heal, if you are in a pt you are a waste of space or filler due to lack of anything else.
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I don't even know why you play summoner Sanjo, you sound like you absolutely hate the job and would much rather be playing a WHM. The last 10 or so levels I've had 3 real options for leveling, The Nest (no thanks), Gar Citidal with BATS or the Quicksand Caves with beetles and SPIDERS. 2 of these locations are usually pretty empty and I find myself hard pressed to find a raise of any sort. Excuse me for knowing my limitations and weaknesses.
As for the "But besides if there is a ninja...." comment, are you even reading what I'm posting? NOT ONCE did I complain about main healing when there is a Ninja, not once have I had any problems whatsoever with a NIN. I LOVE MAIN HEALING WITH A NINJA. I hope you actually read that comment as I capitalized it for you....maybe if you miss it this time I'll make it bigger and bold it for you. I have problems main healing with a PLD tank. As mentioned before, everytime I party with a PLD I'm either blowing through 900+ MP in 2-3 battles WITHOUT USING BLOODPACTS or me/them are getting killed way too often.

Sanjo Renomitsu said:
If you have to, get a rdm or brd, to help you heal in those early cases, because being the smart people we hope we are, we forsee this, as clearly you do. Even as rdm in Boyada Tree our tank would die over and over, and yes he was a good tank. Our whm just couldn't keep cure 4ing him or keep his hp high enough at all times so the spider doesn't pull off a sickle slash + normal attack and kills the pld. EVEN WITH ME helping heal it was a problem at times, despite your healing power creatures with those type of abilities are a pain in the ass, so do yourself a favor and stop using those as an excuse. Any leader with a brain makes a point to avoid them, no one goes "Jeeze, lets fight spiders because crabs are much safer". The way you sound, it's as if you fight those types of mobs 1-75 :roll: I've only fought spiders in tree once, at 50's, and bats in gar. And I've gotten to 70 just fine.
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White mages don't use Cure 4 right? I mean they totally don't need it right...? :roll: Have I fought a lot of bats from 1-51? Hell yeah, have I fought spiders in my last 10 levels? YES! Did I tell my party I think it would be a bad idea? Yup. But frankly when you're down in the quicksand caves and you've killed EVERY beetle in the zone your party isn't going to wait 6-8 minutes for them to pop every time. I don't know...maybe I just leveled during a bad time as the areas I hit were either EMPTY making it impossible to find a raise or they were so packed that you couldn't find mobs to fight...let alone the ones you prefer. I'm sorry but I'm only 1/6 members in my party and sometimes what I say just doesn't go.

Sanjo Renomitsu said:
Mages do not need your stoneskin and blink, they should not be getting hit. Even then, almost all of them can cast it themselves except int he lower levels. In which stoneskin and blink is even less of worth. It doesn't do the melee any real good either, you'd be using your mp to more worth with hasetga. I'm sure your bliz 2 for 300 damage on MB is amazing.... I'm sure it's worth anything more then a rdm's helpful burst to add that small little extra damage. In the end, all your BP are perks, as I have said, and I'm sorry. It's fact. With the 1 min limit none of your BP have enough value alone to warrant you useful in a pt, unless you have no reason to heal like a good ninja tank. It would be saying whm is worthwhile to invite just because of haste, silence, bar spells.. ect.. and because they can heal formost.
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Mages don't get hit? What planet are you from? Are you sure you're playing FFXI and not some other game that sort of resembles this one? I've seen BLMs get hit after landing a really nice burst, I've seen DRKs get hit after causing just a wee bit too much damage, same goes for RNG. These 3 classes I party with A LOT. To boot it's usually with a NIN tank and it's sometimes just really easy to pull hate before SATA goes of when you have a bad pull or some junk like that. I've watched that Stoneskin save my parties asses so many times it's not even funny. Besides if I'm ending Chain 5s with 300 MP to spare, WITH A NINJA TANK why the hell not? I mean it doesn't hurt my party at all and if I was having MP issues, I WOULDN'T BE DOING THEM!

Once again I ask you why the hell you even play this job if all you do is cure? Wouldn't you be more effective as a WHM you know...without using a job 1/2 the level of your party? I use both my main and my sub to benefit my parties. Yes I am a kick ass healer but know my limitations and what situations my job/subjob are best in.

Sanjo Renomitsu said:
As for your calling on cure 4.. They speak the truth. Cure 4 is rarly used. I as a rdm only use it when I convert on myself, or when something goes wrong and someone needs life saving. Don't use that you have a bard as an excuse either. If you cure 3, and he cure 3's, the effect is about as good as a cure 4 >.>. It's true, whm hardly use cure 4, if you think that is bull from your own experiences, you might want to rethink just how good your pt's/static are/is, because the problem is far more likely in your team mates.
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Now this is really where you rubbed me the wrong way. My team mates are amazing, when we get a good tank we get nothing but compliments. A bad tank can ruin even the best back line of mages you could possibly get and frankly in my level range at this time we're having a bitch of a time finding TANKS let alone good ones. In situations where we've had good tanks we've had absolutely NO downtime in parties, so please until you actually play with my team mates don't call them a problem.

I'd just like to take the above mentioned Cure IV comment and refer to one of your above paragraphs where you mentioned your whm using cure IV....In an emergency situation which I believe is when I said I really missed it..? I've only been partying with my static BRD and BLM from 43-51...sooooo from 10-43 I was partying with random people. Black mages who don't cure "Because they are black mages'" Melee RDMs that don't cure because they are too buisy dishing out the damage, PLDs who don't sit or they will lose their tp, hmm I wonder why I felt so inadiquate as a healer.... :? Now I don't know if you just missed moron wave on your race to level 75 but I must of just caught the wave because I've been in a lot of parties where if you're main healer...you're the ONLY healer.

Sanjo Renomitsu said:
You are a smn, as people say. Dispel and refresh is NOT A RDM THING, because bards can do it too! If you think healing is a WHM THING, you are wrong. That is the point. You are a smn, not a whm. That has nothing to do witht he fact that you are main healer. To be truly honest, and I am not tying to be offensive,sounds like your group is pretty bad. First of all, any protect is better then none, even if you don't have a rdm, the pld can buff himself, and any important person like puller. -_- Second of all, you can do anything a whm can do that's any worth to a pt save a very very few things, which do not matter much. I'm talking like curing a few stats pre erase/spring water. Oh well most whm don't have erase anyways.
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When the hell did I say healing was a WHM thing? When did I say I wasn't main healing? At what point did I completely lose you? I mean Firestreak got what I was saying and I think we both kinda understood that we were arguing the same point but it seems to of flown right over your head so lets go over this again... Do I think I'm a great main healer? YES. Does my static kick massive amounts of ass? YES. Can a bad/innapropriate tank ruin my capabilities as a main healer and make my static not function? YES. The whole point of all my posts is that it's un-fair to ask a summoner not to summon at all. I never said it was unfair to ask a summoner to main heal as they are pretty damn good at it but it's not the only thing we do. You should be using your main to compliment your sub and vise versa. Summoners are support characters, NEVER have I thought summoners have been massive damage dealers even before I took on the job.
About the whole protect II thing...where the hell do you think I'm getting it from? Mentioned many times before I try to party with NIN tanks. So we have a NIN/WAR, BRD/WHM, BLM/WHM, SMN/WHM...where are you getting this other party members should be buffing themselves with Prot II thing? Or was I wrong for saying I missed it? I didn't know it was wrong to miss an ability that would greatly benefit my parties....

Sanjo Renomitsu said:
You shouldn't need raise unless something goes wrong, in which case (trust me, please stop complaining because I wish I could pt with whm as much as I want to, they are not exactly plentiful in my experiences as sam and rdm) you will just have to try and get a raise, or if you are 50+ deal with raise one. If you die a lot, your group sucks or someone is making stupid mistakes. Leave.
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I didn't know you needed raise unless something went wrong? I mean last time I had a great party it's not like I needed raise or anything...but guess what? Shit happens. Bad links, pops, The party beside you in the nest Pulls 3 rumbler crawlers on-top of you and then escapes out (this happened recently). 3 situations listed above have nothing to do with a bad party but just bad luck, it happens a lot in this game and really, really, really made me miss raise for 50 levels of main healing. Once again I didn't know it was a bad thing to know the limitations of my job/subjob.

Sanjo Renomitsu said:
That's what I'm tying to put across, first of all you people were fighting over if smn are healers or not, good to know you agree at least sab.

End Point: Smn ARE main healers, and if you forsee a few choice problems like having to deal with jetstream, don't be stupid! Find another alternative xp spot, or prepare in advance, like making sure you have someone else who can cure.

Smn's blood pacts = whm's none healing abilities like silence, haste, viruna. Perks which makes each class different dispite both can main heal, like rdm and brd, nin and pld.
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I've covered pretty much everything listed above previously. I never argued that summoners weren't main healers, I just argued the fact that if you expect them not to summon at all be sure to ask if they are okay with this before you invite them. Yes we are main healers but we are still summoners. Summoners like Svina who I've seen in action make me smile, summoners like you make me really bitter...you sound like you belong on ala's boards bitching and complaining about your job rather then enjoying it.

The above bolded statement just solidifies my point. If a white mage is Only using their cure spells they are a shit white mage, any monkey can mash cure III for 3+ hours in a party. When you start using your other abilities to benefit your party and make it run smoother, you bring more to the table as a player and make yourself a move valuble member to your party. Summoners should be main healing and using their blood pacts to benefit their parties.
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I don't even know what you are whining about now? Smn are main healers. That simple. Are you just trying to "win" an argument?
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"didn't know you needed raise unless something went wrong? I mean last time I had a great party it's not like I needed raise or anything...but guess what? Shit happens. Bad links, pops, The party beside you in the nest Pulls 3 rumbler crawlers on-top of you and then escapes out (this happened recently). 3 situations listed above have nothing to do with a bad party but just bad luck, it happens a lot in this game and really, really, really made me miss raise for 50 levels of main healing. Once again I didn't know it was a bad thing to know the limitations of my job/subjob.

Sanjo Renomitsu said:
That's what I'm tying to put across, first of all you people were fighting over if smn are healers or not, good to know you agree at least sab.

End Point: Smn ARE main healers, and if you forsee a few choice problems like having to deal with jetstream, don't be stupid! Find another alternative xp spot, or prepare in advance, like making sure you have someone else who can cure.

Smn's blood pacts = whm's none healing abilities like silence, haste, viruna. Perks which makes each class different dispite both can main heal, like rdm and brd, nin and pld.
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I've covered pretty much everything listed above previously. I never argued that summoners weren't main healers, I just argued the fact that if you expect them not to summon at all be sure to ask if they are okay with this before you invite them. Yes we are main healers but we are still summoners. Summoners like Svina who I've seen in action make me smile, summoners like you make me really bitter...you sound like you belong on ala's boards bitching and complaining about your job rather then enjoying it.

The above bolded statement just solidifies my point. If a white mage is Only using their cure spells they are a shit white mage, any monkey can mash cure III for 3+ hours in a party. When you start using your other abilities to benefit your party and make it run smoother, you bring more to the table as a player and make yourself a move valuble member to your party. Summoners should be main healing and using their blood pacts to benefit their parties.

- What the hell are you talking about? I SAID as smn I would smn, I would usually work something out with the rdm or bard, so I could summon and buff and they can toss in a few cures while I do so. If you have been reading, it's ALSO what I said smn should do. My WHOLE friking problem is that smn don't want to heal. Oh don't worry, no matter what you do or say you won't be able to stop them from summoning. No if you do what I did, summon and buff, and STILL main heal, that's great. I have respect for you. But when you summon shiva, use ice spikes, have shiva melee, all the while the rdm is trying to keep pld alive distracting from dispel refresh (because pld need constant curing), then the smn has like 200 mp left and has cured no more then twice? How is that a good use of a pt slot? THAT is my problem. Wth is yours?
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I didn't know you needed raise unless something went wrong? I mean last time I had a great party it's not like I needed raise or anything...but guess what? Shit happens. Bad links, pops, The party beside you in the nest Pulls 3 rumbler crawlers on-top of you and then escapes out (this happened recently). 3 situations listed above have nothing to do with a bad party but just bad luck, it happens a lot in this game and really, really, really made me miss raise for 50 levels of main healing. Once again I didn't know it was a bad thing to know the limitations of my job/subjob.

Too bad, deal with it. I was main healer last night, died a few times before we finally got a whm, died some more (but got a raise 2), then went back to main healing. Made 12k xp. I only have raise one, so when the pt people died, they had to deal with it, stuff does happen and I know that. Lower level it shouldn't matter much anyways, pre 25 no one has raise.. At 25 normally kazham you can find a raise pretty easily, not hard to do what you been doing when people died in dunes ect. 40-50 Might be the only tricky levels, when raise is missed a lot. What can you do? I missed raise as well, but there really isn't anything you can do about it. Still don't know what that has to do with being a main healer.

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I don't even know why you play summoner Sanjo, you sound like you absolutely hate the job and would much rather be playing a WHM. The last 10 or so levels I've had 3 real options for leveling, The Nest (no thanks), Gar Citidal with BATS or the Quicksand Caves with beetles and SPIDERS. 2 of these locations are usually pretty empty and I find myself hard pressed to find a raise of any sort. Excuse me for knowing my limitations and weaknesses.
As for the "But besides if there is a ninja...." comment, are you even reading what I'm posting? NOT ONCE did I complain about main healing when there is a Ninja, not once have I had any problems whatsoever with a NIN. I LOVE MAIN HEALING WITH A NINJA. I hope you actually read that comment as I capitalized it for you....maybe if you miss it this time I'll make it bigger and bold it for you. I have problems main healing with a PLD tank. As mentioned before, everytime I party with a PLD I'm either blowing through 900+ MP in 2-3 battles WITHOUT USING BLOODPACTS or me/them are getting killed way too often.

2 things amigo. First, I don't hate smn, but I DO hate whm. Yet I understand I am a healer, not much unlike whm. Still I got smn to 70 and enjoyed it. This has nothing to do about why I do or do not like smn, it's about smn as main healers. Next, do not flatter yourself that all of what I say or have said is directly meant at you, you are not the only smn, and this thread was not made to discuss what you do. I have read your posts, and I'm glad you do what you are suppose to do. I'll send you your cookie later. Meanwhile maybe others will learn something from my posts.

I don't know when you play, but gar and crawler's are normally packed, and a lot of times ( not too often tho) so is quicksands. Nest(no thanks?) Wtf? Gar has bats.. you can't do much about it. It might be hell if you main heal those, what, 2 or 3 levels? Be thankful it's with like a 4k tnl instead of 20 or 40k. Yes, I am aware there are spiders and beetles in quicksands. Guess what, there are shrooms and crawlers in nest too. Now, if we had a ninja tank we would fight shrooms sometimes, but normally we didn't, even with 3 other pt's there getting crawlers and flies like us. Did we go "oh no, no crawlers, let us go against the dangerous exoray and hope we live, because we do not want to wait for repsawn" Um.. no? If you are telling me you warned your pt, and they did it anyways, well that says more about your pt then anything else. You don't have to fight there, for all that you say, and still it's only for a few levels, whatever you say. You say you know your weakness, why not actually use that knowledge? Now what I find funny is your mp uses, are you aware of what kind of skill level you are making yourself seem in my mind? My god, you are a taru! At level 70 I only break 1k with mp gear, and yet I haev never went through 700+ mp curing a pld in 4 battles, or even close unless something went wrong! I heal the same as a whm, and a whm does not use cure 4 to keep curing the tank. Why would you waste any more mp then a whm would? Hmm? Please explain? I frikin buff and main heal and don't even waste that much mp. In fact, I would have more mp then a whm would at end of battles WITHOUT buffng,because of autofresh alone, since I cure for the same they do. :roll:

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White mages don't use Cure 4 right? I mean they totally don't need it right...? :roll: Have I fought a lot of bats from 1-51? Hell yeah, have I fought spiders in my last 10 levels? YES! Did I tell my party I think it would be a bad idea? Yup. But frankly when you're down in the quicksand caves and you've killed EVERY beetle in the zone your party isn't going to wait 6-8 minutes for them to pop every time. I don't know...maybe I just leveled during a bad time as the areas I hit were either EMPTY making it impossible to find a raise or they were so packed that you couldn't find mobs to fight...let alone the ones you prefer. I'm sorry but I'm only 1/6 members in my party and sometimes what I say just doesn't go.

Whm don't need cure 4 to heal basicaly, as in how a whm or smn cures to keep up hp. Cure 4 is normally used in emegerencies. Smn don't get that pleasure. Well, if our pld is almost dead, I'm sure the rdm would toss in a cure 4 with my cure 3, or the bard would (Fallen, a bard, did this last night and I even had cure 4 as rdm. He's doing his job right. -_-) toss in a cure 3. Unless you are the only mage in the pt, or have only a blm with a smn sub for example, cure 4 can be avoided from being used, just from a little teamwork from other mages. That is my point, so you don't really need cure 4. I never did. If you don't have a rdm or brd anyways, it's going to be a subpar pt likely anyways. Kind of like not having a pld or a ninja for a tank. Having a sam or war tank. And even then, I can be a smart person and think ahead, if I think I can't handle it (like I sometimes do when asked to main heal as rdm) I say so, make a few sugguestion, and if I have to, leave the pt/not join.

"Have I fought a lot of bats from 1-51? Hell yeah, have I fought spiders in my last 10 levels?" Some of us just like pain, taking risks, losing xp, and just make things harder all around, don't we? Please, I'm going to have to call that, and exuse me, complete BS. Crap. I have fought bats ONE time, from 1-70, without having to resort to a lesser xp spot, and that was in gar. If you want, you can count the few bats we did around 50 when beetles got scarce. Where did you fight a lot of bats 1-51? Please do tell, it might shed some light on your choice of xp spots. -_- Spiders for 10 levels also seems faulty. I hate spiders, and only time I fought them without too much choice was 50-54 (not even since you can do kuftal) in B. Tree. Which even with a whm was hell, spiders plain and simple suck, that's why people avoid them. Yes, I understand you are only one person in a bit. I can relate to that. But if we are level 29-30 and the pt wants to go fight crawlers in the sack room with a pld tank. (being rdm I didn't have dispel yet either, sigh) I told them what would happen, why I should know, and where we could go instead. Of course, as is common mostly in noobs, they ignored me. Being the the type of guy I am, as I have been surprised before, I told them I would see how we would do and decide if I might want to look for another pt if it turned out bad. (mostly hoping it would change their minds) It was horrible, and I ended up leaving. Hey, no xp is better then losing xp or really bad xp when I could be missing an invite to a better pt.
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Mages don't get hit? What planet are you from? Are you sure you're playing FFXI and not some other game that sort of resembles this one? I've seen BLMs get hit after landing a really nice burst, I've seen DRKs get hit after causing just a wee bit too much damage, same goes for RNG. These 3 classes I party with A LOT. To boot it's usually with a NIN tank and it's sometimes just really easy to pull hate before SATA goes of when you have a bad pull or some junk like that. I've watched that Stoneskin save my parties asses so many times it's not even funny. Besides if I'm ending Chain 5s with 300 MP to spare, WITH A NINJA TANK why the hell not? I mean it doesn't hurt my party at all and if I was having MP issues, I WOULDN'T BE DOING THEM!

Once again I ask you why the hell you even play this job if all you do is cure? Wouldn't you be more effective as a WHM you know...without using a job 1/2 the level of your party? I use both my main and my sub to benefit my parties. Yes I am a kick ass healer but know my limitations and what situations my job/subjob are best in.

WTF are you talking about? Do you even read what I wrote? You are "telling me off" on what I was agreeing and pointing out. Did you take your medicine today? DUH, with a ninja tank even a whm is more free to do other crap rather then heal. AND I HAVE BEEN SAYING I HEAL AND BUFF. As an addition security, I work something out with the rdm or brd so they can deal with any sudden hp drops while I am buffing. I friking use both main and subjob, and really really do not like your insult, of which only shows how little you actually read what I wrote. I DO NOT JUST CURE.

Dude, don't tell me your stoneskin and blink saves lives, because it doesn't! Stoneskin might stave off 100 damage, no more then 200 tops if even(I'm being really generous here, I doubt stoneskin shaves off 200 damage), and that won't even kill a taru mage. Of course the melee having stoneskin when you cast it FOR THE NINJA is a nice perk, but there is no real point to cast it alone. Ok, so blm get whacked a few hits sometimes, I know this. And I toss them a cure or they cure themselves and move on. No need to waste 2 pacts and some 100+ mp IN CASE it happens and maybe once every 10 fights for stoneskin and blink. Drk might be above all the most to be endangered from being hit.

"Mages don't get hit? What planet are you from? Are you sure you're playing FFXI and not some other game that sort of resembles this one? " I'm playing FFXI, wondering wth you are playing, and I come from that planet, you know, where the mages and crap are not noobs? Black mages don't scream to be hit, if they get hit a lot it's someone/something's god damn fault, not just a normal thing. Blm time their nukes so as not to get hate, and even with a ninja tank at level 59-60 with my rdm, as the blm MB he of course got some hate. I've even been whacked a few times from cureing. No big deal, simple mistake of getting too much hate, the mob usually turns after whacking once. As for rangers, that's why they use utsusemi, and why they need to watch their damage, knowing (duh) hello!, it's a ninja tank. At these levels stoneskin might not even last one hit, that rapter hit me for 120 damage. -_- Drk also need to realize that, and I do realize they get hate somethings too, it just happens. If I have to waste my mp so some dumb ass drk can make a mistake of SA with soul eater NOT on the NINJA with a WS, and seals hate on himself and still live.. that's just too bad. It shouldn't be bad enough as you say as it actually saves lives (you even said with ninja so only stonekin would have any real use, and it would only save off that one hit a mob might make. No big deal to cure instead, int he off chance it happens) once again something is wrong with your pt.

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Now this is really where you rubbed me the wrong way. My team mates are amazing, when we get a good tank we get nothing but compliments. A bad tank can ruin even the best back line of mages you could possibly get and frankly in my level range at this time we're having a bitch of a time finding TANKS let alone good ones. In situations where we've had good tanks we've had absolutely NO downtime in parties, so please until you actually play with my team mates don't call them a problem.

I'd just like to take the above mentioned Cure IV comment and refer to one of your above paragraphs where you mentioned your whm using cure IV....In an emergency situation which I believe is when I said I really missed it..? I've only been partying with my static BRD and BLM from 43-51...sooooo from 10-43 I was partying with random people. Black mages who don't cure "Because they are black mages'" Melee RDMs that don't cure because they are too buisy dishing out the damage, PLDs who don't sit or they will lose their tp, hmm I wonder why I felt so inadiquate as a healer.... :? Now I don't know if you just missed moron wave on your race to level 75 but I must of just caught the wave because I've been in a lot of parties where if you're main healer...you're the ONLY healer.

"Now this is really where you rubbed me the wrong way. My team mates are amazing, when we get a good tank we get nothing but compliments. A bad tank can ruin even the best back line of mages you could possibly get and frankly in my level range at this time we're having a bitch of a time finding TANKS let alone good ones. In situations where we've had good tanks we've had absolutely NO downtime in parties, so please until you actually play with my team mates don't call them a problem. "

If you are needing a cure 4 badly as you seem to, whining about not having it and needing it, EVEN WITH A BARD WHO SHOULD BE ABLE TO TOSS THAT CURE IN TO HELP YOU, I dunno, you tell me what the problem is. -_- Your tank is still one of your teammates. Maybe your bard could actually toss in come cures too, I imagine he didn't do something like sub war or drk. You need to put aside your feelings, of which I care little about, and give me some facts, ok? It seemed to me like the problem was iny our group, which is what you said. A bad tank. That would explain why you wish you had cure 4, but now why your bard didn't help cure.

'I'd just like to take the above mentioned Cure IV comment and refer to one of your above paragraphs where you mentioned your whm using cure IV....In an emergency situation which I believe is when I said I really missed it..? I've only been partying with my static BRD and BLM from 43-51...sooooo from 10-43 I was partying with random people. Black mages who don't cure "Because they are black mages'" Melee RDMs that don't cure because they are too buisy dishing out the damage, PLDs who don't sit or they will lose their tp, hmm I wonder why I felt so inadiquate as a healer.... :? Now I don't know if you just missed moron wave on your race to level 75 but I must of just caught the wave because I've been in a lot of parties where if you're main healer...you're the ONLY healer.'

once again, WTF? You are really losing respect in my eyes. Black mage don't cure because they are blm? What kind of crap is this? IF the tank is going to die, and you don't have cure 4, why if the Fing world would the blm NOT CAST A CURE? Melee rdm not helping cure, an pld who don't sit to restore mp? Yeah no wonder you felt so inadiquate as a healer, your party completly sucks. Which has nothing to do with you being a main healer. You don't just deal with this crap man. You don't stay in a pt when your pt leader forms an alliance to fight mobs for xp 10 levels higher then you should be fighting them. You leave. First of all, I have leveled 3 seperate times through all the pre 60 zones, and through up to kazham through all the newcomers. I pted back when it was good, when the ps2ers came, when the EU came, when dunes was swamped. I just started my rdm about a month ago, and it's 60 now, around your level. I did not miss the idiot(they are and always have been there) wave, and as all people will tell you I did not race to 75 or I would be 75. I take my time and enjoy the game, currently tho I wish to be up with almost all my buds, to get a job all the way to 75 is I am in a bit of a hurry to at least finally get a job to 75 because I had my large taste of xping as melee and mage. I want to do HNM, dynamis, and gods now. And focus on crafting.

When your pld does not rest, or when your rdm does not do his job, in other words when your pt is not acting as a team effort, the whole point if forming a pt.. (the tank tanks.. whm keeps him alive, allowing the DD to kill it while not being killed, and the support make it all easier for everyone) kick the people. It would be saying the same if I was a pld, wishing I had cure 4 because the whm doesn't cure, he melees. DEAL WITH IT! If you can't, then leave with it. If an "emergency" happens, as you say, because the bard or blm, or rdm won't heal, or pld does not rest mp.. it's not an "emergency". It's a forseeable outcome of idiotic acts and minds.
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When the hell did I say healing was a WHM thing? When did I say I wasn't main healing? At what point did I completely lose you? I mean Firestreak got what I was saying and I think we both kinda understood that we were arguing the same point but it seems to of flown right over your head so lets go over this again... Do I think I'm a great main healer? YES. Does my static kick massive amounts of ass? YES. Can a bad/innapropriate tank ruin my capabilities as a main healer and make my static not function? YES. The whole point of all my posts is that it's un-fair to ask a summoner not to summon at all. I never said it was unfair to ask a summoner to main heal as they are pretty damn good at it but it's not the only thing we do. You should be using your main to compliment your sub and vise versa. Summoners are support characters, NEVER have I thought summoners have been massive damage dealers even before I took on the job.
About the whole protect II thing...where the hell do you think I'm getting it from? Mentioned many times before I try to party with NIN tanks. So we have a NIN/WAR, BRD/WHM, BLM/WHM, SMN/WHM...where are you getting this other party members should be buffing themselves with Prot II thing? Or was I wrong for saying I missed it? I didn't know it was wrong to miss an ability that would greatly benefit my parties....

You make me laugh. In a sad way. You just keep making youself sound like a sputtering idiot, shuting down people without knowing what they are talking about. Youb are whining about not being fair to have smn not use their BP, I never said that.

" Do I think I'm a great main healer? YES. Does my static kick massive amounts of ass? YES. Can a bad/innapropriate tank ruin my capabilities as a main healer and make my static not function? YES. The whole point of all my posts is that it's un-fair to ask a summoner not to summon at all."

My point, as it seems to have PASSED -YOU-, is that smn should not just summon, and to boot, melee or use useless abilities alone! They should heal! Always, just as a whm would, heal. And as I have said, by countless times (please start reading) by relating smn pacts and whm non heal abilities as both perks, additional things besides healing that make their jobs unique. I don't mind smn summoning if they know what they are doing, and still heal. Good lord I was thanking a smn who had joined my pt, expecting to heal, and he sent me a tell asking if I could heal at start of fights, or whenever he ran up (that being the que) so he can buff. I told myself, GOOD LORD, here is a smn who gets it!. Best of both worlds! Smn blood pacts are mostly useless, however if they are used to add a little more eliteness to being able to heal, they can be enjoyed.

The whole point of all my posts is that it's un-fair to ask a summoner not to summon at all." If that is true, you are done. {Goodbye} Because we are already on the same page. Now if you have something to say defending smn who just want to summon and not heal, by all means, go ahead. -_- Also, your comments about you as healer, your static, and tanks, are opinions,heh.

And yes about the protect thing.. if you have nothing to cast higher then protect 2 because you have a ninja tank... just cast protect 2 and move on. -_- ... ninja tank, you won't be missing higher protect much. In case you didn't know. In case of course you invite another noob, in which he would suck so you would miss it. But that's not your problem then, it's the ninja,heh.
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I've covered pretty much everything listed above previously. I never argued that summoners weren't main healers, I just argued the fact that if you expect them not to summon at all be sure to ask if they are okay with this before you invite them. Yes we are main healers but we are still summoners. Summoners like Svina who I've seen in action make me smile, summoners like you make me really bitter...you sound like you belong on ala's boards bitching and complaining about your job rather then enjoying it.

The above bolded statement just solidifies my point. If a white mage is Only using their cure spells they are a shit white mage, any monkey can mash cure III for 3+ hours in a party. When you start using your other abilities to benefit your party and make it run smoother, you bring more to the table as a player and make yourself a move valuble member to your party. Summoners should be main healing and using their blood pacts to benefit their parties.

Another groundless insult... Well this drops you a ton in my eyes. A 50 smn telling me off... and to boot telling me off defending a point I already agree with and have done myself.. you really are something. :roll: Smn like you don't make me bitter, people like you are seeming make me sick.

"The above bolded statement just solidifies my point. If a white mage is Only using their cure spells they are a shit white mage, any monkey can mash cure III for 3+ hours in a party. When you start using your other abilities to benefit your party and make it run smoother, you bring more to the table as a player and make yourself a move valuble member to your party. Summoners should be main healing and using their blood pacts to benefit their parties."

Um.. no.... that's one of my points.. Wait, if it's yours too... why are you arguing with me? Hmm.... :roll:

Actually I think the ala boards are better suited to people like you, maybe looking for a good fight, another board victory. If you're just in this for a "kill", a win. Fine, you win? I'm here to prove a point. You do know svina is one of the few smn I respect, because she does the same? She has no problem healing and buffing as I do, she's great. Now as I did she does the same thing I do, or if you prefer I do the same she does. So..? What are you trying to say?

I just don't get you sab.. now if this was some big misuderstanding on your part, and you say so , then I'm sorry. But if you are really spouting this stuff.. stop.. think about what you are saying.. and then about what I have already said.
 
Sethala said:
If you're going to fight mobs with high-damage attacks (spiders, bat triplets, etc) as a SMN main healer and PLD tank, you probably want another person that can Cure 3 in an emergency. Not having Cure 4 is a bad thing.

In other words, lacking cure 4 is a bad thing, and not being able to make up for it is also bad.
Click to expand...

i still don't see the need for cure4. most balanced parties have 3 mages. with any competent pld, they won't be taking more than 100 damage per hit. with regen and cure3 from the main healer with the pld curing himself, it's easy to keep him near/at full hp. in those emergency situations, 3xcure3 from mages is ~600hp which is more than 1xcure4. if you've got a pld getting that low hp that frequently, i wouldn't be suprised if a cure4 pulls aggro. 3xcure3 is much, much better.
 
I think you all are missing my point earlier...

I'm saying, there -are- situations that crop up where someone dies because no one had Cure 4 (or lived because someone did have it), and if someone did have Cure 4 (or didn't have it), they would have lived (died). They're very rare situations, yes, but just because it's rare doesn't mean it never happens (thus, my fire extinguisher example). I was just stating that to contradict Sanjo, who was essentially saying that a WHM almost never uses Cure 4. Yes, they almost never use it... but the key word is "almost".

But, that's beside the point at hand. And I really can't think of anything to contribute to the current argument, as it seems like Sanjo and Sabia are just arguing on and on with no hope of stopping...
 
Hol-ee-shit.

I mean seriously sanjo....that post made my brain bleed. I'm not even going to try to quote reply that mess. Anyway!

Point A) You come out and tell me my blood pacts are useless...but then you come back and say that summoners should use blood pacts to help their party? I mean...what's your stance? I make a point that yes summoners are main healers but in certain situations it's just not working for me. I've argued with summoners that JUST heal and never use avatars...to the point that they tell me they only have carbuncle and nobody even notices are useless. This pisses me off and what you came off as being. I've also met summoners that won't heal and think they are massive damage dealers...also pisses me off! You give an example of a summoner that tells you to main heal at the begining of a battle while they summon and give them kudos? News flash! That's what I do! Do they always listen....NO!

I think I mentioned multiple times I think a good summoner should use both blood pacts and the /whm sub to keep their party alive and MAIN HEAL. I've also drilled in my issue with paladins and given multiple examples WHY I have problems with them. Okay if I'm main healing, not using blood pacts and blowing through 910 MP on a chain of 3, is it my fault? I mean I can't just let the tanks life be red because I feel I'm using too much MP can I? What do you propose oh highly level 70-something summoner? I mean seriously...rain your wisdom down upon my lowly level 50 ass because I'm lost.

B) Where have I leveled? Shak maze (bats), Dunes, kaz, Gar Citidal (bats), Nest, Caves (Spiders), Grl Citidal (bats). Hmmm....4 leveling areas out of 7 that I leveled off bats and or spiders...yeah I never level off these creatures :roll: Now that I'm in my static with my BLM and BRD I don't have as many problems with this as they will cure with me. We have a great system going but I've only been leveling with them for 8 LEVELS! My other 42-43 levels have been with random pick-up parties. Parties where YES a BLM won't heal because it's not his job, Parties where the BRD doesn't even have up to date WHM spells, parties where the RDM is doing more nuking then enfeebn/curing. You know maybe if I was a RNG I could be a lot more picky about my parites but there have been HOURS where I havn't got a group and I was trying to catch up to the members of my static.

Kick the tank? You're kidding right? There are no freakin tanks left! I've been in parties so desperate for tanks that they do the hate bounce trick between a RDM/DRK/RNG just because there are no tanks seeking!

C) I'm the idiot? I make a post just pretty much saying that if you expect a summoner to not summon ask them if it's okay with them before an invite. Then I make some valid points of why I don't like partying with Paladins and you blatantly come out and say "Your wrong." How the hell am I wrong? I break down your post into easy to manage points and address them one by one and you come back with some garbled mess followed by a bunch of "heh"s and say I'm sad?

You know you may be a level 70-something summoner but I've been playing the game just as long as you have and have seen all the crap first hand also. If this was an argument about higher level blood pacts that I don't have or HNM stuff I'd be all ears but it's not. It's about experiences with the blood pacts and main healing issue that I allready have in party situations that I'm experiencing! Jesus I think you're like skim reading my posts or something....you say something then come back with a completely different point at the end of your post. Then you make comments about my Static not healing (Bard imparticular) After I made it VERY clear that the mage healing problem wasn't an issue in my current static but was a major issue before I was with them. I'm just Furious right now. :x
 
I believe the argument is that avatar pacts are not MP efficient so should be used as second priority to healing. E.g.

I can deal a good 260 dmg or sho with Banishga 2, as my Divine Magic is capped from playing PLD. However it takes an ungodly amount of MPs. Sure if there's spare MP and it's going to no use, and m healing duties are covered, I should go for it. Bloodpacts would for the same MP be more efficient. And if as a main healer you are MP efficient enough(you should be) to get a few blood pacts in, yes, that's what makes you a unique healer.

All this post has been arguing is, that the blood pacts are not the sole job of the SMN, or.. the blood pacts and support curing, hence prioritize bloodpacts over curing. Or already be a SMN and invite a WHM so you can have more MP for bloodpacts.

Believe it or not, but the general attitude of most people who play this game, is that SMN are Damage Dealers. Not even support or buff, pure damage dealers. At all levels. That's not just what the summoners think, it's what many who have posted here having little experience and knowledge of SMN have said. I believe someone posted towards the beginning saying Fenrir is a beatstick and easily outdamages a DRK?

We aren't goin on a witchhunt here trying to find every SMN and call them a noob, just trying to look where a general notion is false. Showing all the dmg done or prevented by bloodpacts is just to show they can't be the main purpose of the SMN, while it is true they make them unique.

As for cure 4... ugh I'm sitll really unsure about that. I feel honestly much much more worried about the loss of cure 5, the greatest cure spell in the game. If you want to talk about where SMN is lacking. The most MP efficient cure, and no hate. At high level it's great when you carefully regular the tanks HPs to use it and restore huge hateless bursts of HPs. Cure 4 is crap, forget about it. You ain't missing nothing. It's for PLDs to secure hate on themself, it's not really for WHMs to use. It really >does< besides the notisicable hate spike just because of its strength, have a powerful added provoke effect, similar to ancient magic.


But I don't know, it seems like besides minor details we are mostly in agreement here... and that agreement does happen to be that SMN are at maximum efficieny a main healer. I can't imagine why you'd static for 15 levels as healer if you dreamed of dealing l33t Axe kick damage.

Edited in ADDon:
Come on Sabia, read some of the posts of people arguing against the notion of the SMN main healer and tell them off for saying what you've been doing for 15 levels and 1 year is all wrong because squaresoft intended you to be a mass damage dealer. It seems like me, you, Sethala and Sanjo all pretty much are in agreement here that SMN should main heal and with extra MP use useful bloodpacts, read what the other folks are saying.
 
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