WoTg lack of content

[Bajaratt]

I liked it too. It was a perfect way to make people of all levels work together instead and a great way for a social ls to do something together with all of thier members without the lowbies feeeling useless.
The fact that I kept lv cap gear from the get go saved up for bcnms or leveling a similar job later made it slightly easier for me to always have the lv cap gear on hand.
If there were no level caps COP missions structured the way they are would suck even more to get people for.
You would either be told to :
Get a lv 75 to solo the whole thing for you. ( This is boring. I hate boring when in the middle of an epic saga) if lv 75 players could solo a large majority of the missions until sea then it also stands to reason that gilsellers could have flooded into sea and fucked up limbus unto an unusable state while maintaining a monopoly on coins. ( dont pretend they wouldnt do that if they could get thier accounts through COP fast enough)

or the missions wouldnt be beatable unless you were lv 75 which would completely exclude players from all the missions for an entire expansion until they had played the game for several months/years.

You can say there's a middle ground all you want but the lv caps are the middle ground.

You're in the vast minority of players who do that. I have a mule who all he does is store gear I'm not using and I have maybe 1/3 of all of the level capped gear I'd need to store.

The level caps were a big waste of time/storage/money for most players, because most of them already had a 75 job. It gave an advantage to lower level players in that they didn't have to go re-buy gear and find a way to hold it all; while they high level players did.

Forcing players to enter level capped areas/fights is a pathetic way to "increase difficulty." Rather than make the fights actually challenging, they just remove most of the advantages players could have. Most merits, skills and gear are now irrelevant; since at lower levels there's very little to differentiate yourself from everyone else. Level caps suit the lowest common denominator, no one else.

 

[Khajit]

So making the missions impossible for a player to do until 75 is a better way? considering how many new players were out back then I dont think that trying a stunt like rendering an entire expansion impossible to gain anything from for months would have been well recieved.
I hated a large majority of the zilart missions because I kept on dealing with fools that refused to do the mission without a 70+ to do all the work for em when they were perfectly capable of doing essentially all of the mission with any old ragtag group from lv 55-60. This is while having a group capable of winning easily that they refused anyone not 75.

I tried to get into an assault this morning on my lv 72 brd and was refused entry into the group because I wasnt lv 75(and this has happened mutiple times before). If COP hadnt had lv caps the same exact thing that happened to my brd would have happened to anyone without a 75 job.

 

[Bluefrost]

"LOL THERES A WAR U CANT GO THERE"

So, that's the only reason why we can't go into teleportable areas thus far?

So making the missions impossible for a player to do until 75 is a better way? considering how many new players were out back then I dont think that trying a stunt like rendering an entire expansion impossible to gain anything from for months would have been well recieved.

They could make it like an Assault where you can pick the level cap. I wouldn't mind forking over 1k for my AF for CoP. In fact, it would probably make me want to do it more often.

 

[Excim]

I thought the whole level cap thing was retarded too. In fact, it's the main reason I can't get anyone to help with the Three Forks battles, because no one can be bothered to buy gear/mule and prepare for something they get no gain out of. And I honestly can't blame them. Who wants to go through all that BS again if they don't have to? It turned the missions into much more of a chore than anything else.


The best way, in my opinion, to deal with making battles more difficult, would be to cap a players job level, but allow them to wear the gear they enter the battle with. And then adjust the difficulty to deal with things in that respect. Sure, someone with level 75 gear will out do anyone with say... level 30 gear, but at least everyone could participate without it being a chore. And so long as the battle can be won with the right combination of level 30 jobs, I could really see something like this working.

 

[Clocian]

if ToAU was so bad, where do you guys merit? where do you set hp? oh yeah thats right.. lol

Only thing good about ToAU is the lvling spots.

1.Was not interested in the story
2.Areas were ok
3.2/3 jobs rawked 2/3 = 66.6% = F in my books lulz
3.where my hp was at the time was because that's where most people gather together for ptys. As of right now, my HP is in South Sandy(S)
4.Everything else sucked or was not interested in much(salvage,Assault, impossible dynamis).

 

[Kerowynn]

I liked the level caps in CoP. I think it made it a little more interesting. =P

 

[Bajaratt]

So making the missions impossible for a player to do until 75 is a better way?

You don't have to be 75 to beat the missions. You can get all the way to sky with a group of 60-65's; and considering the only restricted zone is for 65+, it makes perfect sense. The level capped areas aren't ever used except for repeating the fights for those who need it or the occasional popped NM, which is arbitrarily placed in that level capped area. Hell, they could enforce that level 75 requirement, make you be 75 before you can flag the first mission and it wouldn't bother lower level players in the slightest. They still have 3 expansions to work their way through, more than they'll possible get through by the time they're 75. The expansions are all about endgame anyways, so forcing people to be level 30 so they can gain access to those endgame events is stupid beyond belief.

considering how many new players were out back then I dont think that trying a stunt like rendering an entire expansion impossible to gain anything from for months would have been well recieved.

At the time, most of the server was already 75; and a very large chunk of those not 75 was over 60 and would have been able to do the first missions.

I hated a large majority of the zilart missions because I kept on dealing with fools that refused to do the mission without a 70+ to do all the work for em when they were perfectly capable of doing essentially all of the mission with any old ragtag group from lv 55-60. This is while having a group capable of winning easily that they refused anyone not 75.

So because you tried doing the missions with idiots who wanted everything handed to them, you think SE should just enforce everyone to have to suffer through level capped zones? That's not a good solution.

I tried to get into an assault this morning on my lv 72 brd and was refused entry into the group because I wasnt lv 75(and this has happened mutiple times before). If COP hadnt had lv caps the same exact thing that happened to my brd would have happened to anyone without a 75 job.

Again, you're asking retards. 75 brd has nothing over a 72 brd other than some hp/mp and maybe slightly better gear which really isn't that important on a bard anyways. That's still nothing that should cause SE to force everyone to go through a level cap; go with good people and that's solved.

Level capped areas create artificial difficulty. Rather than make more interesting fights, or more challenging monsters, they just cut your level down so that you can't perform at your usual level. It was a crappy decision to force people to progress through the missions through level capped fights; and it only shows SE's laziness.

Another way to look at it is this: I spent months, years, building up my character. Levels, merits, gear; I've spent a shitload of time and effort getting to the point where I am now. But now, all of that effort has gone to waste when I want to do the CoP missions or other level capped missions. If it was optional stuff like a BCNM or an escort, that'd be fine; but it's practically a requirement for someone who wants to do endgame and it's stupid to force me to play well below my actual level because they're too fucking lazy to make something actually challenging.

 

[Khajit]

You don't have to be 75 to beat the missions. You can get all the way to sky with a group of 60-65's; and considering the only restricted zone is for 65+, it makes perfect sense. The level capped areas aren't ever used except for repeating the fights for those who need it or the occasional popped NM, which is arbitrarily placed in that level capped area. Hell, they could enforce that level 75 requirement, make you be 75 before you can flag the first mission and it wouldn't bother lower level players in the slightest. They still have 3 expansions to work their way through, more than they'll possible get through by the time they're 75. The expansions are all about endgame anyways, so forcing people to be level 30 so they can gain access to those endgame events is stupid beyond belief.


At the time, most of the server was already 75; and a very large chunk of those not 75 was over 60 and would have been able to do the first missions.

Most of the server was lv 75? Maat was still new and most of the "high levels" were after coffer keys for AF at the time COP came out. I had started on ps2 release and got my tower CS while leveling my first job through quifim by accident the day it came out. I know I dont level constantly but how did the entire server get 75 when I wasnt even 30 yet 1-2 months after the game was released for me during an era where 5k per hour was nutz? Maat(to my knowlege) didnt even give out his final genkai until a month before COP so HOW in gods name did everyone else get 75 at least 500k exp at a maximum rate of 6-8k an hour(assuming no competition and rngburn) every once in a blue moon with only 2 leveling zones on the server.

So because you tried doing the missions with idiots who wanted everything handed to them, you think SE should just enforce everyone to have to suffer through level capped zones? That's not a good solution.

Again, you're asking retards. 75 brd has nothing over a 72 brd other than some hp/mp and maybe slightly better gear which really isn't that important on a bard anyways. That's still nothing that should cause SE to force everyone to go through a level cap; go with good people and that's solved.
Level capped areas create artificial difficulty. Rather than make more interesting fights, or more challenging monsters, they just cut your level down so that you can't perform at your usual level. It was a crappy decision to force people to progress through the missions through level capped fights; and it only shows SE's laziness.

you appear to have missed the point entirely or simply didnt care because it wasnt something you agree wit.
as for "artificial difficulty" from lv caps being used? let me summarize the basics of most lv 75 strategies.

1.sub nin
2. ????
3. profit

care to explain exactly what's so hard about the majority of all strategies in lv 75 fights again vs bumping things down a touch to the point where people actually have to think about what to do?

Another way to look at it is this: I spent months, years, building up my character. Levels, merits, gear; I've spent a shitload of time and effort getting to the point where I am now. But now, all of that effort has gone to waste when I want to do the CoP missions or other level capped missions. If it was optional stuff like a BCNM or an escort, that'd be fine; but it's practically a requirement for someone who wants to do endgame and it's stupid to force me to play well below my actual level because they're too fucking lazy to make something actually challenging.

I was talking about COP. Merits didnt exist for how long after COP came out? Taking into consideration that lv 75 had been recently unlocked I doubt it wasnt that soon after promies were avaliable. How much exp were the godly parties raking in? 6k an hour? I'm sure those merits were capped for COP missions to deprive you of thier use back then while managing to do that. The lv cap gear wasnt even expensive. you paid 50x more on medicines back then than on the gear.
You speak of the levels you have becoming useless when if you did infact have a job at 75 then your own subjobs would have been easily outfitted to enter a cap for 50k or via spending CP to sell it off in AH later.

 

[Skaw]

Most of the server was lv 75? Maat was still new and most of the "high levels" were after coffer keys for AF at the time COP came out. I had started on ps2 release and got my tower CS while leveling my first job through quifim by accident the day it came out. I know I dont level constantly but how did the entire server get 75 when I wasnt even 30 yet 1-2 months after the game was released for me during an era where 5k per hour was nutz? Maat(to my knowlege) didnt even give out his final genkai until a month before COP so HOW in gods name did everyone else get 75 at least 500k exp at a maximum rate of 6-8k an hour(assuming no competition and rngburn) every once in a blue moon with only 2 leveling zones on the server.

uh

no? 75 level cap happened very shortly after NA release. It was sometime around Dynamis release. Which was like, 9 months before CoP.

What the highest level was is moot. The point is that they shouldn't have capped it.

 

[Khajit]

uh

no? 75 level cap happened very shortly after NA release. It was sometime around Dynamis release. Which was like, 9 months before CoP.

What the highest level was is moot. The point is that they shouldn't have capped it.

OK I was wrong about the date then for G5 due to me not technically having anything to do with maat at the time.

What is your solution that SE should have done about the lv caps? Somehow it sounds like you thouroughly enjoyed all of the TAU missions in all thier "soloable by anyone 70+" glory.Those final patchs where people tried them and didnt think "hey I can solo this " must have been such a letdown to you.

 

[Xalioniaf]

Only thing good about ToAU is the lvling spots.

1.Was not interested in the story
2.Areas were ok
3.2/3 jobs rawked 2/3 = 66.6% = F in my books lulz
3.where my hp was at the time was because that's where most people gather together for ptys. As of right now, my HP is in South Sandy(S)
4.Everything else sucked or was not interested in much(salvage,Assault, impossible dynamis).

1. It may have started slow, but it really picked up towards the end.
2. How is that on the bad things list when you say they're "ok"?
3.1. Most people still set their HP there, or set their HP in their home nation in the present since the update that allowed teleportation from home nations. But most people still head there for parties, as people tend to party in ToAU areas 55+
3.2. So because one job wasn't all that great, it's an automatic failure of an expansion?
4. You're in the minority then. Many people enjoy Assault and Salvage, and most compitent people are doing just fine in Einherjar.

 

[Skaw]

OK I was wrong about the date then for G5 due to me not technically having anything to do with maat at the time.

What is your solution that SE should have done about the lv caps? Somehow it sounds like you thouroughly enjoyed all of the TAU missions in all thier "soloable by anyone 70+" glory.Those final patchs where people tried them and didnt think "hey I can solo this " must have been such a letdown to you.

Make it a challenge. Don't make it a challenge in juggling equipment. A Low level character gets virtually nothing out of CoP anyway. Sure, Swift Belt and Soboro are nice, but it's not like the progression content yielded any commonly used EXP camps or farmable NMs.

 

[Bajaratt]

Most of the server was lv 75? Maat was still new and most of the "high levels" were after coffer keys for AF at the time COP came out. I had started on ps2 release and got my tower CS while leveling my first job through quifim by accident the day it came out. I know I dont level constantly but how did the entire server get 75 when I wasnt even 30 yet 1-2 months after the game was released for me during an era where 5k per hour was nutz? Maat(to my knowlege) didnt even give out his final genkai until a month before COP so HOW in gods name did everyone else get 75 at least 500k exp at a maximum rate of 6-8k an hour(assuming no competition and rngburn) every once in a blue moon with only 2 leveling zones on the server.

Yes, most of the server was 75. I had 1 75 job and another that was 65 when CoP came out. CoP came out about a year and a half after the NA release, so you must have joined the game late or you suck with dates.

you appear to have missed the point entirely or simply didnt care because it wasnt something you agree wit.
as for "artificial difficulty" from lv caps being used? let me summarize the basics of most lv 75 strategies.

1.sub nin
2. ????
3. profit

care to explain exactly what's so hard about the majority of all strategies in lv 75 fights again vs bumping things down a touch to the point where people actually have to think about what to do?

No, I got the point. You keep trying to do things with morons who think you have to be 75 to do anything in the game; then you assume that everyone is that way.

You're the one completely missing the point of what's being said. Yes, there's not much strategy in most fights because utsusemi is overpowered; no one ever said otherwise so stop acting like you're intelligent for pointing out something that everyone already knew. MY point, which you completely ignore, is that rather than adding actual challenge to the fights, they just lower the level cap. It's artificial difficulty, along the same lines as saying "no magic for this fight," rather than make the monster/area challenging, they just weaken you to make it harder. Going into a boxing match with one hand tied behind your back makes the fight more difficult; it does not make your opponent a better fighter.

I was talking about COP. Merits didnt exist for how long after COP came out? Taking into consideration that lv 75 had been recently unlocked I doubt it wasnt that soon after promies were avaliable. How much exp were the godly parties raking in? 6k an hour? I'm sure those merits were capped for COP missions to deprive you of thier use back then while managing to do that. The lv cap gear wasnt even expensive. you paid 50x more on medicines back then than on the gear.
You speak of the levels you have becoming useless when if you did infact have a job at 75 then your own subjobs would have been easily outfitted to enter a cap for 50k or via spending CP to sell it off in AH later.

Before ToAU came out, top exp was 10-12k an hour; if you don't remember details of the past, stop talking. Merits were out before CoP came out, I had capped regen before then and I was annoyed that I couldn't use it in the promy's.

I shouldn't have had to buy the shitty low-level gear for the level capped areas. The whole reason why I improved my gear was because it was better gear. My levels did become useless. I had access to fewer spells/abilities, none of my job-specific merits, and my gear was severely hampered compared to what I was using at 75. You're an idiot of you don't think that removing every benefit of being higher level is making those levels useless.

The vast, vast majority of people don't hold onto every piece of gear they get. Everyone holds onto it until they get something better, then get rid of it, unless there's a real reason not to. I'm more of a pack rat than most people, I have tons of shit that I'll probably never use but I have it just in case; but that doesn't mean I carry around level capped gear for levels 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60. I wouldn't even have the space to buy a whole set of level capped gear, and I have more free space than most people around. "Just buy the gear" isn't always an option either, things aren't always in stock.

 

[Khajit]

Make it a challenge. Don't make it a challenge in juggling equipment. A Low level character gets virtually nothing out of CoP anyway. Sure, Swift Belt and Soboro are nice, but it's not like the progression content yielded any commonly used EXP camps or farmable NMs.

There are perfectly fine exp camps in COP that can be unlocked. It just happens that noone uses them There are perfectly fine camps in COP that are connected to a town that noone uses even. Just because the camp iteself is good doesnt mean people will flock to them. TAY had to double/triple exp per hour in the camps to make everyone willing to try new places as well as sanction bonuses.
Famable NM's huh?
Padfood, megalobugard, odquan,upyri. if you include lv capped areas there's that hippogriph with the h.kote, inside the lv 40 cap zones there are lot of EX NM with perfectly good gear in them that could be used to gear yourself for further misson or almost permanently. the subligar quests gave out lv 50 gear to use for caps later on if you bothered killing some fomor so COP even gave you gear to use in those lv caps.
Make it a challenge? You missed the whole point again. Making it a challenge to a lv 75 on the starting missions would have have resulted in the expansion being unusable to the entire ps2 section of thier consumer based for at least 6 months and unusable to anyone that hadnt hit 75 and geared up thier jobs to max.
If it isnt challenging to a 75 then the missions will consist of "have a 75 do it" which is what happens with most uncapped missions that 75 can solo so anyone that isnt 75 gets to be bored and feel no sense of acheivement.
The lv cap was the only real way at the time to make people have to work for thier missions to be complete from the very start and still is atm. Requiring a person to be 75(when most of the population wasnt yet) to start a newbie mission for acess to a lv 40 exp zone is ridiculous as well and does nothing but encourage players not to buy the pack at all or leave them on the shelves for months at a time.

 

[Skaw]

padfoot isn't farmable, you moron. He's a 24 hour spawn.

At the same time you profess your love for the level cap, you ignore the fact that they cause people to never want to fucking touch them again. So new players are absolutely screwed out of help from those who've gone through it already.

 

[Bajaratt]

There are perfectly fine exp camps in COP that can be unlocked. It just happens that noone uses them There are perfectly fine camps in COP that are connected to a town that noone uses even. Just because the camp iteself is good doesnt mean people will flock to them. TAY had to double/triple exp per hour in the camps to make everyone willing to try new places as well as sanction bonuses.
Famable NM's huh?
Padfood, megalobugard, odquan,upyri. if you include lv capped areas there's that hippogriph with the h.kote, inside the lv 40 cap zones there are lot of EX NM with perfectly good gear in them that could be used to gear yourself for further misson or almost permanently. the subligar quests gave out lv 50 gear to use for caps later on if you bothered killing some fomor so COP even gave you gear to use in those lv caps.

More gear you have to store, less overall room for better things. The only pieces that are of any use later on would be voyager sallet, jaegar ring, soboro and swift belt. All of which have other options that you can just buy. Everything else that's worth using is not obtained through a level capped area, so it's completely irrelevant to the discussion on level capped areas.

Make it a challenge? You missed the whole point again. Making it a challenge to a lv 75 on the starting missions would have have resulted in the expansion being unusable to the entire ps2 section of thier consumer based for at least 6 months and unusable to anyone that hadnt hit 75 and geared up thier jobs to max.

PS2 came out about 4-5 months after initial NA release, and well over a year before CoP even came out. They had more than enough time to get to 75 and quite a few of them did. Just because YOU didn't doesn't mean that no one did.

If it isnt challenging to a 75 then the missions will consist of "have a 75 do it"

Why are you incapable of reading what I'm saying? I said to make it challenging, but not in the retarded way of actively gimping the players.

Requiring a person to be 75(when most of the population wasnt yet) to start a newbie mission for acess to a lv 40 exp zone is ridiculous as well and does nothing but encourage players not to buy the pack at all or leave them on the shelves for months at a time.

Then just grant them access to the one zone out of what, 30 they added? Your reasoning is completely circular, force the high level people to do the missions at low levels; but only so they could open up a low level exp zone that no one ever uses anyways. Low level people wouldn't get very far into the story anyways. Most of the big content was endgame(sea, limbus, dreamlands dynamis) so forcing the endgame players to low levels is asinine.

There's also this:

padfoot isn't farmable, you moron. He's a 24 hour spawn.

At the same time you profess your love for the level cap, you ignore the fact that they cause people to never want to fucking touch them again. So new players are absolutely screwed out of help from those who've gone through it already.

Which is partially what I've been saying all along. Level capped areas ARE such a massive pain in the ass that no one ever wants to do them once they're done. Everyone buys the gear, beats the mission, then sells that gear back. That's partially why everyone only wants to wait for a 75 on the other missions, because it's actually possible to get enough people to complete the mission; a 75 just means you can do it with less.

The only reason I even keep 40 cap gear for my nin is because I could do bcnm's with it; if I didn't have over 400 beastmen seal's, I probably would have sold/tossed it all by now.

 

[Ewok]

For me, it's difficult to say whether the lvl caps added the right type of challenge. It did make it easier to take up the right jobs to do the missions. I failed alot at Promy-Holla til I lvld SMN to 30+, then it was cake. But using SMN in those fights should feel more like this:

as for "artificial difficulty" from lv caps being used? let me summarize the basics of most lv 75 strategies.

1.sub nin
2. ????
3. profit

With the only change being:

1. lvl SMN

Do I think it was artificial difficulty? No. Part of what makes something challenging isn't just what you can do, but also what you aren't able to do. It's why I like Salvage. It forces you to prioritize anything from JA's to magic to something as simple as being able to equip a weapon. It was a pain in the ass getting all the low lvl gear for CoP, but considering the gil that people can shell out in meds for any type of difficult mission, I don't sympathize much, especially since the lvl cap gear can be resold.

As far as the comment about lvl 75 strategies basically being throwing /nin's at it, I don't think that's true either. There are some mobs/bosses that can blow through shadows like they weren't there (not too many mind you, but something SE can remedy), and there are other very reliable strategies out there. Don't believe me, go watch theFlock take down a Wyrm.

 

[Vilurum]

FYI for timeline:

10/28/03: NA PC release
03/23/04: NA PS2 release
09/21/04: CoP release

So when CoP came out, it'd been a little less than a year since PC release, half a year since PS2 release. That's still plenty of time to get a 75 (or at least 50's or 60's) job, mind you, so the argument still holds, it's just to a somewhat lesser extreme.

 

[Skaw]

If SE wants people to stop subbing NIN, they need to make monsters not hit like fucking dinosaur obliterating meteors. NQ Campaign mobs hitting 300-400 is ridiculous. Even NQ Besieged mobs hit for less.

 

[Bluefrost]

If SE wants people to stop subbing NIN, they need to make monsters not hit like fucking dinosaur obliterating meteors. NQ Campaign mobs hitting 300-400 is ridiculous. Even NQ Besieged mobs hit for less.

Yeah, it makes me want to participate less, because with barely 900HP, I really have to prioritize who I'm healing (the tank only). I always prefer to use CureV over CureIV due to the hate issue, so then my MP becomes an even bigger issue, because sometimes Cure III just isn't enough.