Would Voke break PLD?

[Stouter]

Also, forgot to add that Haste with a higher delay(no dual wield) is a lot more potent than haste with a lower delay, so theres also that factor to toss around.

15% off either way is 15% off. The only way haste varies is when stacked with other haste, and Dual Wield and Martial Arts are not included.

 

[Eulore]

If Joyeuse is DA +50% then you would DA 60% as /war, if they are seperate and don't stack (well known that they don't stack) then you would only get 55%.

Virtue weapons attacking twice stacks with DA, meaning you can get 4 swings per round. I think they proc 50% of the time and the figures reflect those numbers, but I'm not sure.

Joyeuse alone - 224 Delay, 6.0 TP/hit
2.41 TP/sec solo without DA
2.49 TP/sec solo with /war using 55% DA theory
2.57 TP/sec solo with /war using 60% DA theory

Justice Sword alone - 236 Delay, 6.3 TP/hit
2.40 TP/sec solo without DA
2.64 TP/sec solo with /war

Joyeuse + Justice Sword + DW2 - Delay double swing, 5.3 TP/hit
2.44 TP/sec

Joyeuse + Justice Sword + DW2 + Suppa - 368 Delay double swing, 5.0 TP/hit
2.45 TP/sec

Justice Sword solo wins for TP gain.

I don't care, firestreak does. Edit: I believe the jailer weapons go off more than 50% though, pretty sure they have a really high proc rate but I don't have one so I can't confirm.

I read what you wrote, you answered something completely off the subject, learn to fucking follow the discussion, jeez.

No, I said I've never tanked with a nin/drk as a pld/nin. I then stated that the only time I've tanked with a nin/drk was as pld/war on a god.

The sole reason blms don't chain nuke is due to hate, which is the opposite of what you first said on the subject.

I said part of the reason is the hate, part because of MP. When they die, that's inefficient for MP, no?

In either case, no amount of hate tools that wouldn't severely tip pld into the better tanking position is going to keep hate off a blm spamming as soon as the mob is engaged which is in retort to Rufus's point that jobs might not have to hold back hate. But a pld-provoke would help them hold more hate so the BLM can spam all his/her MP sooner.

I'm not trying to brag, I'm trying to put the value of hate in perspective. Trying to make the assumption hate can always be held easily is an incorrect statement which can negatively influence gear choices of tanks who may shift priorities.

I've always gone full enmity in spots that won't severely gimp my damage negation and macro in pieces that I wouldn't wear full time because they would lower my damage negation by a good chunk to all my hate abilities.

There aren't many things a Provoke, Flash, Sentinel, Rampart, Shield Bash, Warcry, Invincible won't turn, but I've never had a blm start spamming spells within 30 seconds (because most BLM's I play with are pretty smart... not all of them though -.-) so I wouldn't know if it would turn it.

 

[Trippyhippy]

There aren't many things a Provoke, Flash, Sentinel, Rampart, Shield Bash, Warcry, Invincible won't turn, but I've never had a blm start spamming spells within 30 seconds (because most BLM's I play with are pretty smart... not all of them though -.-) so I wouldn't know if it would turn it.

my point exactly. Any pld going all out will hold hate off of any other job going all out.

not all of them though -.-)

; ;

 

[Rufus_Shinra]

15% off either way is 15% off. The only way haste varies is when stacked with other haste, and Dual Wield and Martial Arts are not included.

But 15% varies from delay to delay. For example (and only example):

Say you have a sword with 100 Dealy. 15% off that is 15 dealy off. So the delay becomes 85.

Now you have a sword that has 400 delay. 15% off of 400 is 60 delay off.

So sure 15% is 15% but the number delay taken off still increases as the delay of the weapon increases.

I THINK thats what Skaw was getting at.

 

[Rufus_Shinra]

my point exactly. Any pld going all out will hold hate off of any other job going all out.



; ;

Yea, thats until the PLD has to wait during the cooldown timers for all his abilities while the BLM is still going all out.

Sentinel: 10 Minutes
Shield Bash: 10 Minutes
Provoke: 30 seconds.
Watching a Taru get slammed into the ground: Priceless.

<Sentinel>
<Shield Bash>
<Provoke>
<Flash>
Nuke
Nuke
Nuke
Nuke
Nuke
Nuke
Provoke
Nuke
Flash
Nuke
Nuke
PLD Loses Hate
Provoke
BLM has too much hate
....
....
....
BLM hits the ground.
....
....
....
<Sentinel Ready>
<Shield Bash Ready.>

[This is assuming your WHM isnt curebombing the BLM]

 

[Stouter]

I said part of the reason is the hate, part because of MP. When they die, that's inefficient for MP, no?

So it's partly due to hate, and partly due to the result of pulling hate? Sounds like 100% due to hate to me.

 

[Skaw]

15% off either way is 15% off. The only way haste varies is when stacked with other haste, and Dual Wield and Martial Arts are not included.

Thats not what I meant. 15% of 100 isn't the same amount time cut as 15% of 110. It equals out, yeah, but with TP variances due to delay, this could make a difference.

 

[Eulore]

Yea, thats until the PLD has to wait during the cooldown timers for all his abilities while the BLM is still going all out.

Sentinel: 10 Minutes
Shield Bash: 10 Minutes
Provoke: 30 seconds.
Watching a Taru get slammed into the ground: Priceless.

<Sentinel>
<Shield Bash>
<Provoke>
<Flash>
Nuke
Nuke
Nuke
Nuke
Nuke
Nuke
Provoke
Nuke
Flash
Nuke
Nuke
PLD Loses Hate
Provoke
BLM has too much hate
....
....
....
BLM hits the ground.
....
....
....
Sentinel Ready
Shield Bash Ready.

Sentinel: 5 minutes
Shield Bash: 5 minutes
Rampart: 5 minutes
Warcry: 5 minutes
Provoke: 30 seconds
Flash: 37 seconds without haste gear but with spell haste

It would be more like this

Provoke
Flash
Nuke
Nuke
Mob turns
Rampart
Sentinel
Mob back on paladin
Provoke
Nuke
Flash
Nuke
Galka out of MP
Nuke
Elvaan out of MP
Mob turns
Warcry
Shield Bash
Mob back on paladin
Nuke
Provoke
Nuke
Hume/Mithra out of MP
Flash
Nuke
Taru out of MP.

If it doesn't come back after all JA's, invincible and it's on the pld.

After a couple minutes of hate building, blms chain nuking isn't going to turn the mob very easily at all, especially if they're logging for hate.

 

[Stouter]

But 15% varies from delay to delay. For example (and only example):

Say you have a sword with 100 Dealy. 15% off that is 15 dealy off. So the delay becomes 85.

Now you have a sword that has 400 delay. 15% off of 400 is 60 delay off.

So sure 15% is 15% but the number delay taken off still increases as the delay of the weapon increases.

I THINK thats what Skaw was getting at.

Yes, but if you take half off your delay, you'll get twice as many swings, regardless of your delay, period. If you're getting 10% more TP with one setup than another, add haste to both and you're still getting 10% more with the same one.

 

[Trippyhippy]

Provoke
Flash
Nuke
Nuke
Mob turns
Rampart
Sentinel
Mob back on paladin
Provoke
Nuke
Flash
Nuke
Galka out of MP
Nuke
Elvaan out of MP
Mob turns
Warcry
Shield Bash
Mob back on paladin
Nuke
Provoke
Nuke
Hume/Mithra out of MP
Flash
Nuke
Taru out of MP.

And that's if the taru had about 1500mp for nukes. If he does, then he isn't doing any damage cause he is wearing all mp gear. Refresh and Ballad don't factor in because if you are doing blast nukes, you get maybe 100mp from both from the time you start your first nuke till when your mp is gone.

 

[Taurothar]

I was really hoping that one of the new PLD JA would be a short recast of similar use as provoke but again they failed to deliver anything all that worthwhile to PLD...

Chivalry does help with MP every 20 minutes though >.>

 

[Firestreak]

I honestly don't understand what the hell you're talking about.

You could hold my hate when you're going all out if I'm going all out...

...as long as I'm not going all out?

What does that even mean? How am I supposed to respond to that? Are you considering what you're saying when you type it?

Edit: Sorry not trying to be a dick but I really think some people on QCDN argue points to the lengths that they abandon basic logic and purely try to confuse people with semantics.

This is one of those "huh" situations. You agree that any decent BLM will pull hate when nuking under their abilities even(waiting 30 seconds for a 2nd voke), yet you simultaneously argue that PLD can hold endless hate.

Obviously the real solution about level 75 hate control has been established... nobody invites BLMs and all the melees sub ninja. And I'm confident in the case of paladin having provoke they'd sub ninja too, even if they used a shield(they wouldn't), simply cause if DDs need utsu to party than the tank would too.

 

[Eulore]

I honestly don't understand what the hell you're talking about.

You could hold my hate when you're going all out if I'm going all out...

...as long as I'm not going all out?

What does that even mean? How am I supposed to respond to that? Are you considering what you're saying when you type it?

Edit: Sorry not trying to be a dick but I really think some people on QCDN argue points to the lengths that they abandon basic logic and purely try to confuse people with semantics.

This is one of those "huh" situations. You agree that any decent BLM will pull hate when nuking under their abilities even(waiting 30 seconds for a 2nd voke), yet you simultaneously argue that PLD can hold endless hate.

Obviously the real solution about level 75 hate control has been established... nobody invites BLMs and all the melees sub ninja. And I'm confident in the case of paladin having provoke they'd sub ninja too, even if they used a shield(they wouldn't), simply cause if DDs need utsu to party than the tank would too.

...where did I say that? I never implied either. A BLM can pull hate like that if the pld isn't going all out. A pld can hold near endless hate if they do go all out though (including invincible and all JA's and stuff) Where did I ever say I could hold hate if you're going all out but not going all out, that doesn't even make sense.

Obviously the mob isn't going to be glued to the tank 100% of the time, not a single tank in this game is perfect, but a pld going all out as needed will usually pull the mob back before it even gets to the blm.

And since when are we talking about exp? I'm talking about end-game fights.

Also, if you burn all your mp on spells then rest, what if you miss a MB because you're out of MP or the melees didn't give you enough warning and you're resting? That's sacrificing potential damage. And in end-game fights you're not going to get near a 100% non-resist rate on nukes. Wouldn't it be smarter and more effecient to only use nukes that the mob is weak to? And again to save MP for a MB? That seems the most effecient MP and Damage-wise to me.

But what do I know, my BLM is level 17.

 

[Rufus_Shinra]

...where did I say that? I never implied either. A BLM can pull hate like that if the pld isn't going all out. A pld can hold near endless hate if they do go all out though (including invincible and all JA's and stuff) Where did I ever say I could hold hate if you're going all out but not going all out, that doesn't even make sense.

But Invincible being a 2 hour means that by using it just as a hate tool is as worthless as burning up all your MP as you said.

And since when are we talking about exp? I'm talking about end-game fights.

We arent limiting it to End game fights either. Its Paladin getting provoke as a whole job. levels 1-75.

Also, if you burn all your mp on spells then rest, what if you miss a MB because you're out of MP or the melees didn't give you enough warning and you're resting? That's sacrificing potential damage. And in end-game fights you're not going to get near a 100% non-resist rate on nukes. Wouldn't it be smarter and more effecient to only use nukes that the mob is weak to? And again to save MP for a MB? That seems the most effecient MP and Damage-wise to me.

But what do I know, my BLM is level 17.

Im not saying you should go all out. Im saying that with PLD having more hate control, BLM can nuke a little more freely.

The argument is wheter a PLD going all out can hold hate off a BLM going all out, which I dont think it can.

 

[Firestreak]

No you're talking about gods only now. It's not so easy to hold hate on limbus, dynamis or weaker NMs. Gods are naturally damage resistant and deal lots of damage, and paladins get huge amounts of support and all their JAs for that single fight.

 

[Lavi]

Also, to the whole Dual Wield > Double Attack thing. 10% Dual Wield is static, yes. 10% Double Attack is random, yes. Over time though, they're the same thing(In regards to the number of attacks you can perform.) Due to Double Attack being random, it can be better than Dual Wield one fight, and worse the next. Ofcourse, basing things on individual fights is a really retarded way to pass judgment. In the long run, they're equal in this regard. As long as the values are equal, that is.

10% Haste is not the same thing as 10% DA. 10% haste means you will do 100 attacks in 90% of the time. Or rather in the same amount of time, you will do 111 attacks. With DA, you'd only get 110 attacks with a 10% DA rate. If you can't see that, a more obvious example is 50% haste versus 50% double attack. Takes half the time to attack so obviously you'll attack twice as often. For 50% DA, you'd get half to do single attacks and half to attack twice, so you'd get 1.5 times the amount of attacks. From this stand point, dual wield is superior; however, from a TP perspective, you get more TP per swing without dual wield thus building TP faster.

 

[Makelith]

We arent limiting it to End game fights either. Its Paladin getting provoke as a whole job. levels 1-75.

They are talking about it as one of the new meritable abilities which are only able to be goten at 75, or at least thats how i'm reading it.

 

[Rufus_Shinra]

They are talking about it as one of the new meritable abilities which are only able to be goten at 75, or at least thats how i'm reading it.

Yea, its my fault though. I didnt intend for the topic to be limited to that. I wanted to get an opinion of PLD having voke like a WAR, from level 5 to 75.

 

[Eulore]

No you're talking about gods only now. It's not so easy to hold hate on limbus, dynamis or weaker NMs. Gods are naturally damage resistant and deal lots of damage, and paladins get huge amounts of support and all their JAs for that single fight.

Mobs in limbus and dynamis (non-boss's) don't live long enough for most blms to get more than 1 maybe at the most 2 spells off at the most. The boss's you can go all out on hate so the blm can nuke more. And in the case of dynamis lord, it's stun locked so it doesn't really matter if you get hate or not.

I hope that made sense.

But Invincible being a 2 hour means that by using it just as a hate tool is as worthless as burning up all your MP as you said.

Trippy brought up the point that pld can have near infinite hate if they wanted, I backed up that point.

We arent limiting it to End game fights either. Its Paladin getting provoke as a whole job. levels 1-75.

I'm talking about the end-game part of this because a lot about the paladin job involves end-game. I believe I said how it would affect normal partying levels earlier in the thread.

And honestly if a blm is chain-nuking in an exp party they are wasting MP because they'll be resting towards the end of the exp chains, slowing down exp, etc.

The argument is wheter a PLD going all out can hold hate off a BLM going all out, which I dont think it can.

And I think it can. The only thing that would pull hate off a pld going all out is the blm using 2hr after nuking out all MP.

And again, it depends on the mob. On anything relatively high in level, it's going to resist a lot and be innefficient to just chain nuke out your MP.

I hope all that made sense, I'm really tired and a little drunk.

 

[Eulore]

Yea, its my fault though. I didnt intend for the topic to be limited to that. I wanted to get an opinion of PLD having voke like a WAR, from level 5 to 75.

With /war we'd hold insane amounts of hate and other subs (namely mnk, blu, and maybe rdm after phalanx levels) would be feasible. /nin wouldn't work very good for main tanking until 74 because pld has low evasion and with only ichi we'd just get interupted constantly and would need to dual tank.

There, there's my opinion as a 75 pld =P

And we're not treating it like that, but me and another pld wish it would be added (and I'm sure many more do too)