Would Voke break PLD?

I'd be curious to see if a pld could actually tank effectively with /mnk. Boost, so far as I understand it, gives 1/3 of the hate that voke does. So you'd have 2/3 as much hate from that if you spam it. If you use your other job abilities well, you could get a nice hate spike from dodge, focus, or chakra. On the other hand, you'd have to spend a lot of time focusing on just keeping hate through this stuff, and with the +VIT, you wouldn't take as much damage, so you wouldn't be able to cure yourself for hate as effectively (although the difference there may be negligible).

Anyway, I think it's totally possible in exp with an SATA skillchain, but it might not be as efficient as pld/war. I just feel bad that they're stuck with the one sub (although I've been mnk/war forever, so yeah).
 
Zethren said:
Its true about the PLDs, but check out JDAs or Kaizen's Fafnirs sometime bud. Its with WAR Tanks you get your 10 minute Fafs. With PLDs up to 30 mins ;/
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And with brd/nin tanking you get 5 minute Fafnirs :P

And nin and war can tank the big shit too, just as good/better than pld, they just can't DD tank as nin/war or war/nin.
 
The following only pertains to EXP parties. Im not sure how well it would work in endgame.

I feel as if we keep talking about "what if". PLD isnt going to get Voke obviously, but now we have opened up the possibilities of alternate subs.

We use provoke as instant hate. But is it an absolute necessity?

PLD/MNK has plenty of hate gaining oppertunities.
PLD/WHM has some too, though less than /MNK
PLD/NIN is debatable without provoke.

Iv noticed that in some fights, I only use Provoke to gain initial hate, then my abilites work from there and with the curing and flash, provoke isnt needed that much unless something goes horridly wrong and a BLM overnukes or WHM has to Benediction from a bomb toss or something.

PLD/MNK would just need a way of getting hate, then keeping it is easy from there.

Anyone who has a PLD, go test this theory. (My MNK is only 15 so I cant test it.)
 
Firestreak said:
I think a pertinant thing to consider is that yes Paladin won't keep shadows up like Ninja would obviously, but then when their shadows are down... they're still a paladin and would just be taking damage like they were taking damage before they sub'd Nin. Even though we can't dodge we still use AA on paladins when they're tanking big stuff.

Imagine a really skilled Paladin and SMN( or /SMN) working together to bounce Utsusemi and AA for total coverage.
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I didn't have a problem keeping shadows up on jormungand (2x march, haste spell, 5% haste in gear).

Stouter said:
And nin and war can tank the big shit too, just as good/better than pld, they just can't DD tank as nin/war or war/nin.
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You're crazy if you think a war/nin can tank as good as a pld/nin on things they can't DD on. 22 second Flash + +21 enmity (+6 macroed in to all hate abilities) + Sentinel/Rampart/Shield Bash + more damage mitigation if I do get hit or when in the air > Anything a Warrior can do.

And when I did jorm I tri-tanked with 2 nin/wars, we all held hate about equally (needed to so I could cover them when it flew to regain some MP to cure-bomb myself negating the damage taken from him flying every other time he flies), they were nin/war though, as I've mentioned numorous times, haven't had experience with nin/drk as pld/nin so can't comment on that.
 
Eulore said:
I didn't have a problem keeping shadows up on jormungand (2x march, haste spell, 5% haste in gear).



You're crazy if you think a war/nin can tank as good as a pld/nin on things they can't DD on. 22 second Flash + +21 enmity (+6 macroed in to all hate abilities) + Sentinel/Rampart/Shield Bash + more damage mitigation if I do get hit or when in the air > Anything a Warrior can do.

And when I did jorm I tri-tanked with 2 nin/wars, we all held hate about equally (needed to so I could cover them when it flew to regain some MP to cure-bomb myself negating the damage taken from him flying every other time he flies), they were nin/war though, as I've mentioned numorous times, haven't had experience with nin/drk as pld/nin so can't comment on that.
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He didn't mean war/nin. War/whm (in koenig) is pld with curaga. Curaga = hate...but anyway....
 
jamal said:
He didn't mean war/nin. War/whm (in koenig) is pld with curaga. Curaga = hate...but anyway....
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And getting hit and not having enough MP to keep yourself cured very much without anything to absorb hits until another takes gets hate off you = lolmpsponge that everyone seems to be against...but anyway...

I'm going to sleep fuck this discussion.
 
jamal said:
He didn't mean war/nin. War/whm (in koenig) is pld with curaga. Curaga = hate...but anyway....
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Wait wtf, war/what? You can change your subjob to something other than nin when you play war?
 
Eulore said:
And getting hit and not having enough MP to keep yourself cured very much without anything to absorb hits until another takes gets hate off you = lolmpsponge that everyone seems to be against...but anyway...

I'm going to sleep fuck this discussion.
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Blink/stoneskin/high defensive gear/dmg reduction gear. Not the main tank, but you're in the tank party, managing curaga's so that mp as a whole is conserved. Double refresh (brd+rdm) with nin/drk tanks, you only need to hold hate for a minute after roar so that the nin/drks have a chance to souleater to regain hate. 6mp/tick you'll have enough mp to sustain moderate hate, and you're helping keep the wyrm focused on the tank party, rather then the mages placed away from the tank party.
 
Given that this is something of a "wish list" thread(and I dun wanna start one of my own :P), here's a few thoughts that I'd like to throw into the discussion here:

1) What if instead of a voke-ish type /ja, Pld were instead to have a /ja, merited or otherwise, that would act like a self-contained SATA? Letting a Pld spike a good deal of damage onto a mob once or twice per fight?

2) Since dodging elemental/magical damage is arguably the largest advantage Nin or /nin has in the tanking department, wouldn't giving Plds some element/magical resistance related to their high Def/Vit not only make sense, but also significantly level the playing field?

3) Why . . . in the name of all that's [Holy], doesn't Invincible defend against magical attacks as well? It should. I'll state that as outright fact, and I'll stick to it unless someone can give a damn good reason it shouldn't. Why the hell should Plds share a 2hr with Thfs? Perfect Dodge makes good sense to me. Thieves are agile, sneaky fighters. Even in the RPG/fantasy aspect of things, Perfect Dodge makes sense, as Thieves are usually foremost among those who fear confronting magical opponents. Paladin's 2hr, on the other hand, should make them the Immovable Object, not the Thief in Shining Armor.

Coincidentally, I don't believe that a voke-type ability would "break" Pld any more than Shield Mastery or Auto Refresh did; in short, not at all.
 
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Reauland said:
3) Why . . . in the name of all that's [Holy], doesn't Invincible defend against magical attacks as well? It should. I'll state that as outright fact, and I'll stick to it unless someone can give a damn good reason it shouldn't. Why the hell should Plds share a 2hr with Thfs? Perfect Dodge makes good sense to me. Thieves are agile, sneaky fighters. Even in the RPG/fantasy aspect of things, Perfect Dodge makes sense, as Thieves are usually foremost among those who fear confronting magical opponents. Paladin's 2hr, on the other hand, should make them the Immovable Object, not the Thief in Shining Armor.
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Because SE is retarded.

[SARCASM] Heaven forbid Invincible should do as the name implies. [/SARCASM]
 
Anyone subbing white mage who can't time a Cure III between melee hits needs to let someone else do it. The only time it's not possible is fighting something with a naturally low delay or haste effect on it.
 
If you're subbing whm and have to time between hits you're probably not gonna use Cure III, you'll be using Curaga (II)
 
Stouter said:
If you're subbing whm and have to time between hits you're probably not gonna use Cure III, you'll be using Curaga (II)
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Except Cure III is much faster than Curaga, or Curaga II. If it's casting something with a long cast time, yes, Curaga (II) would be better. But you can easily squeeze a Cure III between a vast majority of the melee hits from mobs in the game.
 
Skaw said:
Anyone subbing white mage who can't time a Cure III between melee hits needs to let someone else do it. The only time it's not possible is fighting something with a naturally low delay or haste effect on it.
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Once you get off 2-3 cure 3's you're out of MP and just getting beaten on.

nin/whm wouldn't really work. They have no real way of gaining any direct spike hate besides ninjutsu spells which nins do regardless of sub (no provoke/stun/flash/whatever). They could hold a little bit of hate, but nothing on a nin/war, nin/drk, pld/nin, or even war/whm (yeah it works but I'd rather use 2 pld/nins if the -gas are a problem, just use pld MP to cure other tanks and not worry about being hit), and after roar you're not going to be able to pull back hate anything at all like the other tank combos.

And yeah the only time you should get interupted with cure 3 is if you're just completely not paying attention, notice hp is low, and spam macro, which is a noob move. :/
 
Cure III - 46 MP, ~200 HP
Curaga - 60 MP, ~100 x 6 HP
Curaga II - 120 MP ~200 x 6 HP

More hate per MP, and when there's 3 tanks, you're not worried so much about making more hate when you're top on hate list, so interruption isn't an issue.
 
Stouter said:
Cure III - 46 MP, ~200 HP
Curaga - 60 MP, ~100 x 6 HP
Curaga II - 120 MP ~200 x 6 HP

More hate per MP, and when there's 3 tanks, you're not worried so much about making more hate when you're top on hate list, so interruption isn't an issue.
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Cause your mages are taking damage from -gas and your curagas can reach them right? It should be x3 not x6.
 
You'll typically have a brd in there too, and your mages won't always be outside AoE for whatever reason. In any event it's a bigger spike of hate, which is what the job combination is for.
 
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