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Mokk
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Tell that to the people who had to wait on paperwork to be filed before they got food 
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Mokk
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All i'm saying is there's definately something wrong when the media gets there before the military if the military was waiting in the wings as we're NOW being told after the fact.
Tell that to my cousin who is a nurse stationed at Keesler AFB (or what is left of it) who was treating the injured and refugees immidiately following the hurriance. They were there, they were and still are helping.
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Mokk
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If i had a cookie i'd give it to her.
Who gives a shit? the fact remains that NO ONE SHOWED UP FOR 4 DAYS in the DISASTER AREA until the beauracracy allowed for it. Whereas we bypassed beauracracy to go to war with a country that posed no immediate threat, defend it all you want it's still bullshit.
Btw, even the government agrees with the statement that they dropped the ball at the beginning, this isn't a partisan thing.
Who gives a shit? the fact remains that NO ONE SHOWED UP FOR 4 DAYS in the DISASTER AREA until the beauracracy allowed for it. Whereas we bypassed beauracracy to go to war with a country that posed no immediate threat, defend it all you want it's still bullshit.
Btw, even the government agrees with the statement that they dropped the ball at the beginning, this isn't a partisan thing.
Since when did disaster relief become a duty of the military? The military's facilities were just as damaged down there as everything else. Keesler AFB is likely to be abandon as it has been all but wiped out. Mobilization on that scale takes time, but we had help rolling before four days had passed. Just check here. Katrina hit on the 29th, this article was posted on the 31st.
If you want to blame someone, blame the city desigers who thought it wise to build up a river so much higher than the surronding flood planes with ever increasing levis. It was a disaster bound to happen eventually and will happen again as long as they continue to develop in New Orleans and build the levis ever higher. Rivers typically deposist silt in the flood planes when a small flood occurs, however our levis prevent that. The silt is deposisted in the bottom of the river instead raising the water level, requiring ever taller levis which are more vunerable to failing. The only solution is to not build there, or let the small floods happen naturally. Levis are a self defeating structure that just worsen what is to come.
Help was there before four days. However, supplies take a while to gather up and move down there. The large supply convoy that arrived four days after had been forming since shortly after the storm hit, it did not just magically appear on day four with no prior planning. The military also planned ahead of time with the shelter in the sports dome. That was done to protect against a hurricane, no one expected a flood though of this magnitude.CNN said:
If you want to blame someone, blame the city desigers who thought it wise to build up a river so much higher than the surronding flood planes with ever increasing levis. It was a disaster bound to happen eventually and will happen again as long as they continue to develop in New Orleans and build the levis ever higher. Rivers typically deposist silt in the flood planes when a small flood occurs, however our levis prevent that. The silt is deposisted in the bottom of the river instead raising the water level, requiring ever taller levis which are more vunerable to failing. The only solution is to not build there, or let the small floods happen naturally. Levis are a self defeating structure that just worsen what is to come.
Missed this important quote from that article so I apologize for the double post:
Also keep in mind all roads and water access routes into New Orleans and the surronding areas have been heavily damaged if not completly destroyed. The military had to trail blaze the whole way in just to reach much of the devestation. The arteries of the area were cut.
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Mokk
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Obviously you missed the point entirely and were just looking to make another longwinded post to defend your position, let me dumb it down for you:
They sure did plan awfully well on the Superdome they set up a
shelter with no security or food, good planning. Nice point rones.
Actually i blame the federal government for not putting the plan in to action to provide funds for the proposed wall/levies that would have averted this. I would then move on to the state government for sapping the meager funs they were given in not building up the existing levies.
We didn't ask to go to war, nor did we approve it but we threw troops at it.
We usually aren't asked when we send troops to OTHER countries natural disasters yet we go and get there quick as shit.
Should anyone have HAD to wait around for OUR OWN troops to get orders to move in to help OUR OWN PEOPLE?
Btw, it's a LAKE with only one small outlet... LAKE ponchetrane (sp?) you should look things up before making such a silly mistake, i'm sure you can hound a link for it
Type till yer blue in the face, add links till yer fingers go numb. I don't much give a shit, there's ABSOLUTELY no arguing the fact that the "they didn't ask for the help until days later or decalre martial law till it was too late" doesn't hold water compared to sending the nation to war without approval.
They sure did plan awfully well on the Superdome they set up a
shelter with no security or food, good planning. Nice point rones.
Actually i blame the federal government for not putting the plan in to action to provide funds for the proposed wall/levies that would have averted this. I would then move on to the state government for sapping the meager funs they were given in not building up the existing levies.
We didn't ask to go to war, nor did we approve it but we threw troops at it.
We usually aren't asked when we send troops to OTHER countries natural disasters yet we go and get there quick as shit.
Should anyone have HAD to wait around for OUR OWN troops to get orders to move in to help OUR OWN PEOPLE?
Btw, it's a LAKE with only one small outlet... LAKE ponchetrane (sp?) you should look things up before making such a silly mistake, i'm sure you can hound a link for it
Type till yer blue in the face, add links till yer fingers go numb. I don't much give a shit, there's ABSOLUTELY no arguing the fact that the "they didn't ask for the help until days later or decalre martial law till it was too late" doesn't hold water compared to sending the nation to war without approval.
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Mokk
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Rones said:
I suppose that the news media that just drove right in had to bulldoze their way through too.
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Kayne West is a fucking idiot. He is part of the problem as well as "Rev" Sharpton for saying these people should be looting, and also the idolization of ganster rap and the need for the materialistic things as glorified by Mtv, BET, and E! television.
Not only are those idiots the problem, but also where the hell is Colin Powell, or Obama, or Jesse Jackson. Black leaders NOT black media stars should be the vocal leaders of black communities and put more emphasis on success outside of pro sports and rap record contracts.
Everyone white or black or whatever are scared to confront the truth. The truth is that the poor black communities have the wrong black role models and it is working against them. What are the percentages of pro ahtletes or successful recording artists in the black community?
Based on affirmitive action laws and the NAACP, UNCF, and countless other all black organizations these people have more options than the average middle class white kid. Fucking assholes like Jesse Jackson need to get involved in these black communities and improve them instead of complaining of oppression.
I was a white trash family poor white kid with no dad who chose role models other than those of many of my peers and now I am a successful stockbroker who is semi-retired at the age of 31. I fucking play games for a living because I worked my ass off to not be a damn welfare statistic.
Not only are those idiots the problem, but also where the hell is Colin Powell, or Obama, or Jesse Jackson. Black leaders NOT black media stars should be the vocal leaders of black communities and put more emphasis on success outside of pro sports and rap record contracts.
Everyone white or black or whatever are scared to confront the truth. The truth is that the poor black communities have the wrong black role models and it is working against them. What are the percentages of pro ahtletes or successful recording artists in the black community?
Based on affirmitive action laws and the NAACP, UNCF, and countless other all black organizations these people have more options than the average middle class white kid. Fucking assholes like Jesse Jackson need to get involved in these black communities and improve them instead of complaining of oppression.
I was a white trash family poor white kid with no dad who chose role models other than those of many of my peers and now I am a successful stockbroker who is semi-retired at the age of 31. I fucking play games for a living because I worked my ass off to not be a damn welfare statistic.
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Foofighter said:
Agreed for the most part, though i saw jesse jackson with his hands dirty talking on MSNBC saying the same thing about a color divided america and not having the proper response racially one way or the other on this disaster. IMO he handled THAT brief moment of an interview rather well and made some key points whilst backing away and being annoyed at the racial question as a whole.
Mokk it's fairly pointless to argue with someone like you who will ignore all points that disprove what you're saying and just repeat yourself angrily saying what is obviously not true.
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Mokk
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Fox and MSNBC are now reporting that supplies were ready and waiting 30 miles outside of those areas hardest hit by the storms and flood that sat there for 3 days without being moved in. I suppose they're lying too, don't you have something trivial to get pissy with someone about?
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Mokk
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show me where i made a false statement, please.
Ponchetrane IS a lake.
The civic colleseum/superdome HAD no security or food left there.
Supplies WERE in place but waited on paperwork to be filed before moving in.
The money WASEN'T provided in full to support pre-emptively building up the surrounding levies to avert this disaster.
The money that WAS provided on small part went to other things thanks to local government.
Congress DID NOT approve us going to war until we already went.
FEMA fucked up hard.
We SHOULD have had troops on the ground IMMEDIATELY in force instead of the bulk being sent days later.
We DO respond to other countries natural disasters awfully quick AND with our own military....
These are all facts, save your one line bullshit for someone who cares, FS
Ponchetrane IS a lake.
The civic colleseum/superdome HAD no security or food left there.
Supplies WERE in place but waited on paperwork to be filed before moving in.
The money WASEN'T provided in full to support pre-emptively building up the surrounding levies to avert this disaster.
The money that WAS provided on small part went to other things thanks to local government.
Congress DID NOT approve us going to war until we already went.
FEMA fucked up hard.
We SHOULD have had troops on the ground IMMEDIATELY in force instead of the bulk being sent days later.
We DO respond to other countries natural disasters awfully quick AND with our own military....
These are all facts, save your one line bullshit for someone who cares, FS
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Mokk
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Anyone who wants to jump my shit for pointing out that msot of the agencies involved were either slow to react or didn't react until they were given the go ahead by the beauracracy can feel free, the point i'm making is the president shoulda had that gunslinger mentality on this as he did on the war. Id've been more than happy to see that as opposed to geraldo holding up a 10 mo old baby 3 days after asking "What the hell?" with a military checkpoint just up the road and a clear walk outa town that they weren't being allowed to make.
It's not an argument tturn on your TV ... read a paper.
THE PRESIDENT SAID: now's not the time to point fingers, but that time will come and when it does we're going to assess what went wrong and how to make sure something like this never happens again. I'm not out to spew venom about it, i'm not out to bash bush about it, i am out to provide my opinion just like EVERYONE ELSE who posts to this board and provide what facts i can to support that opinion.
It's not an argument tturn on your TV ... read a paper.
THE PRESIDENT SAID: now's not the time to point fingers, but that time will come and when it does we're going to assess what went wrong and how to make sure something like this never happens again. I'm not out to spew venom about it, i'm not out to bash bush about it, i am out to provide my opinion just like EVERYONE ELSE who posts to this board and provide what facts i can to support that opinion.
It occurs to me that it would be rather pointless to place supplies inside the city. Unless of course you think some piles of bottled water and packaged meals stand a better chance against the tornado than all of the houses and other structures that were more or less completely destoryed.
Mokk does have a point though its not as if the government had a lack of data or estimations for damage etc, and while stockpiles of food will no appear out of thin air they had several days to stockpile it instead of waiting for the disaster to hit and THEN start stockpiling food...I mean even if they collected too much and the damage wasn't all that bad, i am pretty sure those things are vacum sealed and will keep for a good few years...they probably would only end up sitting in a warehouse until the next disaster anyway.
Anyway i think the people themselves should have tried more to get away from the hurricane. Old phrase "Luck favours the prepared". If it was me in that position i would have tried at least to get as far away from the hurricane as possible, even if i could only get to an area which was still going to be hit if to a lesser extent.
And as for the levi's...well...what is there to say? apart from that they fucked up big time by ignoring them. Also i dont think it is because they are black that they are being left to die etc...i think it is like was said earlier, NO doesn't contribute that many votes, therefore they are politically disposable.
Sorry for the long post :x
Mokk does have a point though its not as if the government had a lack of data or estimations for damage etc, and while stockpiles of food will no appear out of thin air they had several days to stockpile it instead of waiting for the disaster to hit and THEN start stockpiling food...I mean even if they collected too much and the damage wasn't all that bad, i am pretty sure those things are vacum sealed and will keep for a good few years...they probably would only end up sitting in a warehouse until the next disaster anyway.
Anyway i think the people themselves should have tried more to get away from the hurricane. Old phrase "Luck favours the prepared". If it was me in that position i would have tried at least to get as far away from the hurricane as possible, even if i could only get to an area which was still going to be hit if to a lesser extent.
And as for the levi's...well...what is there to say? apart from that they fucked up big time by ignoring them. Also i dont think it is because they are black that they are being left to die etc...i think it is like was said earlier, NO doesn't contribute that many votes, therefore they are politically disposable.
Sorry for the long post :x
It was designed and supplied to be a short term, one day shelter against the hurricane. It was not designed as a long term shelter in case of mass flooding like this. It also had 500 national guard stationed there throughout the event providing security within. However, 500 troops can not maintain security for the tens of thousands that swamped the place after the flooding started. That was not part of the plan. Hurricanes hit the New Orleans and surronding areas regularly. You can not make huge preparations for such a massive disaster every single time. That is like the boy who cried wolf (also partly why some did not evacuate).
Yes, a lake that has built up to the point of being well above the surronding ground level because of the use of levis. This lakes gets a lot of water flowing through it and could almost be considered a very wide river considering how shallow it is. My point still stands that the fault lies with an engineering mistake of trying to build there and rely on levis. This exact same event happened in 1965, yet we rebuilt the city anyway. It will happen again because you can not control a river or lake like that with levis indeffinetly. Levis can work in parts of Europe because they don't get the hurricanes there, but with regular tropical storms and hurricanes hitting the region, it is rediculous to try to build there below sea level and rely on levis.
I suppose the news media was transporting in tens of thousands of workers and thousands of tons of supplies. :roll: Yeah, really hard to air lift in a 3-5 man news crew. I also don't remember seeing any ground crews inside New Orleans for 2-3 days that weren't dropped off by a helicopter.
Martial law was declared the following day. :roll: Day before Katrina hits, Bush begins preparing hurricane relief funds, read more here.
I don't think the government was slow on acting. I think you were slow on reading and keeping up on current events as they happened. Just because you read about it 5-6 days after, doesn't mean it happened 5-6 days after.
Did you miss the part I mentioned earlier where Coast Guard was going through New Orleans in large numbers the same day Katrina hit? Do you really want our armed forces running across the country every time there is a chance some disaster might strike so they can be there within minutes? They are not storm chasers and do not have the resources to transport troops everytime there is a chance major disaster might strike. Sure, in hindsight if we knew for sure it would hit New Orleans and the levis would break everyone should move there. However, this has happened many times in the past and the damage was minor. They react as best they can, but they can not predict every major disaster.
Mokk, I criticized your argument style before, and this is just proving the point with great lines such as "save your one line bullshit for someone who cares, FS" and "Type till yer blue in the face, add links till yer fingers go numb. I don't much give a shit, there's ABSOLUTELY no arguing." Why even enter a discussion if you are going to use that attitude. Yet, you even post this to defend yourself " i am out to provide my opinion just like EVERYONE ELSE who posts to this board and provide what facts i can to support that opinion." So I am not allowed to argue, post my opinion, or use facts that support my position, but you are. :roll:
Foofighter said:
You really did hit that nail on the head. OMG THERES A HURRICANE LETS SEE WHAT KAYNE WEST THINKS ABOUT THIS?!!!!!! W...T...F???
Firestreak said:
omg did i just agree with you???
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I blame the damage on the dumbasses that though building a city below sea lvl on the coast would in some way be a good idea. Can't beleive it took so long for a real hurricane to hit it.
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Mokk
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Rones said:
Look there's just as much good as bad that was done and can be pointed out, i happened to point out the more negative as that's what i've been exposed to and even the government says mistakes were made. We could argue the lack of preparedness VS the people who were all but there and helping after the storm left until we all have a stroke.
As far as me defending myself with my statements, i hold to it. Surprisingly i've been developing a growing fan club that likes to follow me from post to post disagreeing with me and demeaning my posts just b/c they didn't like my style which is utter bullshit. I've dealt with it entirely to long and i see no reason why i shouldn't adress the matter to the specific person. In this case FS got a remark. I wasen't attempting to have an arguement about it, i was pointing out that everyone involved said mistakes were made, then hit on those mistakes and voiced my opinion which you then jumped on because you don't like my style, possibly viewed my comment as a partisan one, and felt like picking my post apart even though the facts presented were the same things being reported by not only every media outlet on the planet but the government and agencies involved in the disaster.
As i said call it what you like, the rambling of people on a message board pales in comparison to the people actually on the ground reporting or taking responsibility for the lack of response not only before the disaster (I.E. not funding the proposed plans to make NO a safe place to live) but the slow response after the fact. The last leg of this thread was all based on the fact that you took my remark as a partisan bash at bush which it wasen't, i noted it would have been nice to see the same cavalier attitude towards this as our war in iraq. If you think that's the best political attack i could have come up with for this you're sadly mistaken but as i said i feel for the president in a political sense right now as the more unenlightened population of our country sees the entire mess as all his fault.
In short, if you don't like my style good for you, hit the ignore button and save yourself a heart valve, stalk me just to serve your ego and i've got a nice warm spot on my balls you can swing from.
I was writing out another response, but then I remembered something. That is exactly what you always want; People to just maul your argument over and over for page after page while you play the abused victim of stalking and throw around your unsupported opinions throwing personal insults. Same thing you have done many times in the past. Firestreak's post was right on the mark.