XboX 3 !

[RaidrX]

I was gonna respond to your post, but half the shit i said you either took the completely wrong way to make your argument stronger, or it just went right over your head, so i'm not gonna take the time to type it up.

 

[Anttaru]

Where in my post did i at all? I agreed with you on most of your points.

I notice you didn't like being called a sony fan boy in the other thread. You really shouldn't be throwing around things, about things that don't even exist yet, in such a fan boy~ish manner. Overall very good guesses, and i support most of them, but honestly now?

There. Me believing the later system will have more capabilities than the current isn't exactly fan boyish

It doesn't make sense to have that huge of a problem in the first place.

I'm don't suggest referring to you as a child was right on my behalf, i do get defensive when my gestures are discarded as fan boy related.

Fixing the problem may take longer than expected. Everyone just assumes that it will always be MS and Sony punching it out, while nintendo sits on its throne with more money and probably a bigger fan base than god does. It has finally moved to a standard media after everyone else. Its not even high def, but it has still outsold both 360 and PS3 by leagues and leagues.

That's true. What else to expect from a cheaper brand. There's more money to be made when a car company makes a more affordable vehicle. The same goes for anything else. It's easy to rob the Wii of it's more Unique control scheme, and Nintendo has a very large fan base to support what they do, which is why they stay close to their franchises.

Working closely with IBM, Nintendo knew the best coarse of action and followed through with a cheap system with features that separates itself from the others.

Hardly. I've said it before and i'll say it again. Praising the PS3 for things that that the average consumer can't see is just stupid.

It's safe to say the best has yet to come for PS3 right now. But from what we're looking forward to, the games on PS3 surpass the best X360 games. Visually and dynamically. What harm is there in mentioning that.

I have no idea what game it is that is impossible to be made on the 360, because i'm an average consumer. When people try to pitch stuff like that it just sounds like jibberish and you lose credibility. To people without a graphical, motion, and/or design background all of those things mean nothing.

Did graphics not make X360 a worthy purchase ? Other than that, is the X360 putting out games that were impossible to achieve on the original XboX from a non graphical perspective ?

Halo 3 could have been done on XboX easy. Same with Gears of War and Mass Effect. But it would not have been the same visually. XboX360 offers a face lift with traditional and non traditional means of game development.

I like to use Ninja Gaiden Sigma on PS3 as a prime example. It could not have been done like that on the X360. Ninja Gaiden 2 I'm sure will be great but much of Team Ninja's ideas for it will have to be left out, and it won't be as entreating on a high definition setting.

 

[Bajaratt]

That's true. What else to expect from a cheaper brand. There's more money to be made when a car company makes a more affordable vehicle. The same goes for anything else. It's easy to rob the Wii of it's more Unique control scheme, and Nintendo has a very large fan base to support what they do, which is why they stay close to their franchises.

Working closely with IBM, Nintendo knew the best coarse of action and followed through with a cheap system with features that separates itself from the others.

So, you're saying the reason why the Wii is dominating in sales is because it's cheaper? :wacko:

Hell, after the gamecube, their fanbase shriveled up to almost nothing compared to the xbox and PS2's fanbase; the Wii's created a whole new fanbase that is by far greater than it's core of die-hard nintendo fans.

Did graphics not make X360 a worthy purchase ? Other than that, is the X360 putting out games that were impossible to achieve on the original XboX from a non graphical perspective ?

Halo 3 could have been done on XboX easy. Same with Gears of War and Mass Effect. But it would not have been the same visually. XboX360 offers a face lift with traditional and non traditional means of game development.

I like to use Ninja Gaiden Sigma on PS3 as a prime example. It could not have been done like that on the X360. Ninja Gaiden 2 I'm sure will be great but much of Team Ninja's ideas for it will have to be left out, and it won't be as entreating on a high definition setting.

Sadly, there's not really anything on the PS3 that really couldn't have been done on the 360, except in terms of graphics. Sure there's little things, Firestreak loves the hedgehog grenades from Resistance, but it doesn't change anything about the gameplay. Wow, it calculates the trajectory of every single spine, but you still have to act just like it was a normal frag grenade. Aside from the six-axis, which could have been done on the 360 if they had lost rights to rumble too; there really isn't any worthwhile gameplay aspects that the PS3 can generate that the 360 can't.

 

[Anttaru]

So, you're saying the reason why the Wii is dominating in sales is because it's cheaper? :wacko:

Yes. It's also attractive to game developers.

Hell, after the gamecube, their fanbase shriveled up to almost nothing compared to the xbox and PS2's fanbase; the Wii's created a whole new fanbase that is by far greater than it's core of die-hard nintendo fans.

Not that far off from XboX if i remember correct. PS2 took the majority of the market at that time. It's dying off slowly now but still rolling. This is the after effect of a staggering 120,000,000 PS2 units.

Nintendo's all time best console sale record to date is the N64. (Let me know if I'm wrong)

Wii is indeed quite a force I reckon. But I'm under the impression it's restoring Nintendo and has great potential to surpass Nintendo's past records. With the youngsters encouraging their family to participate, the Wii will have an outstanding amount of players. Like there are more Honda than Porsche on the road.

Sadly, there's not really anything on the PS3 that really couldn't have been done on the 360, except in terms of graphics.

You can kind of say that now. Without including the upcoming titles,there's still time to point that out i guess. Still, Ninja Gaiden 2 would have been more well done on the PS3.

Sure there's little things, Firestreak loves the hedgehog grenades from Resistance, but it doesn't change anything about the gameplay. Wow, it calculates the trajectory of every single spine, but you still have to act just like it was a normal frag grenade.

Yeah

Aside from the six-axis, which could have been done on the 360 if they had lost rights to rumble too; there really isn't any worthwhile gameplay aspects that the PS3 can generate that the 360 can't.

Having several dynamics running at the same time will effect the entire experience of Game Play. Being faster the PS3 can run more intelligent AI. This of coarse has relies on the programing. But the PS3 will handle more complexed rigs in this matter. Killzone 2 is coming. I really don't know if XboX can handle that as well as the PS3 can.

More memory adds for more mind play, leaving an object in one place, then it still being there after returning to a stage is not bad, a developer can do a lot with that to say the least, and i believe they already are. (What game was that again ?)

So Bajaratt, what's you're expectations for the 3rd installation of XboX ? What will get it's foot in the door ?

 

[Moink]

aren't current 3rd party developer contracts 10 years or somin? forgive me i havent read all of the thread but i was just curious in the manner in speak of a new console

 

[Tagrineth]

360 has more available memory and a more powerful graphics chip compared to ps3. ps3 has a screaming fast cpu and not much else (SOUNDS FAMILIAR SOMEHOW).

 

[Bajaratt]

Yes. It's also attractive to game developers.

Except the price isn't the reason why it's been supply constrained for the last 15 months.

Not that far off from XboX if i remember correct. PS2 took the majority of the market at that time. It's dying off slowly now but still rolling. This is the after effect of a staggering 120,000,000 PS2 units.

Yeah, looking at the numbers, the xbox only barely outsold the gamecube. I thought they did a lot more than that.

Nintendo's all time best console sale record to date is the N64. (Let me know if I'm wrong)

Not counting hand-helds, the NES was the top selling unit. The NES did 62 million, the SNES did 49 million, the N64 did 33 million and the gamecube did 22 million.

Wii is indeed quite a force I reckon. But I'm under the impression it's restoring Nintendo and has great potential to surpass Nintendo's past records. With the youngsters encouraging their family to participate, the Wii will have an outstanding amount of players. Like there are more Honda than Porsche on the road.

Well, it's already beaten the gamecube's sales in just over a year, so it's very very likely it'll be the top selling nintendo console of all time. Price still isn't the driving factor though, it's the wiimote. Non-gamers are enjoying that it's only $250, I'm sure, but they're buying it because it's simple and fun. If the Wii didn't exist, they wouldn't be buying 360's or PS3's; which is why price isn't the driving factor in it's success.

A Honda vs. a Porsche isn't really an accurate example, since you don't drive differently in the Honda; nor is it creating a whole new market.

So Bajaratt, what's you're expectations for the 3rd installation of XboX ? What will get it's foot in the door ?

More power than the PS3, probably a blu-ray drive; the next resolution beyond 1080p, probably support for whatever replaces HDMI. Most of what you predicted for the next xbox, because it's obvious that it's going to be in there. There will probably be some motion detection; since that's been pretty successful so far. It'll most likely be closer to the Wiimote's technology than six-axis, too.

I'm sure the PS4 will be more powerful than the xbox 3, but by the time the PS4 comes out, the xbox 4 will be out as well and it'll be at least as powerful as the PS4. It's impossible to say which will be more powerful than the other, but they should be pretty comparable. The Wii 2 will also be out by that point, and it'll be a major jump up in power from it's current version as well; probably comparable to the PS3's power right now.

 

[Anttaru]

360 has more available memory and a more powerful graphics chip compared to ps3. ps3 has a screaming fast cpu and not much else (SOUNDS FAMILIAR SOMEHOW).

Incorrect.

PS3 has 2 kinds of RAM it can use both at the same time as well.

If you read about XDR RAM, and what it's doing in the PS3, you'll learn the XboX's GDDR3 is no match.

You should read the thread i made about Crysis and the PS3. It's a good introductory for you're new lesson in PS3's architecture.

 

[Anttaru]

Except the price isn't the reason why it's been supply constrained for the last 15 months.

Price is a big part of the Wii's success. $250 for a brand new console, with ass loads of games, plus developers have an easier time making games for it, and it's easy on the cash, you can't go wrong.

Well, it's already beaten the gamecube's sales in just over a year, so it's very very likely it'll be the top selling nintendo console of all time. Price still isn't the driving factor though, it's the wiimote. Non-gamers are enjoying that it's only $250, I'm sure, but they're buying it because it's simple and fun. If the Wii didn't exist, they wouldn't be buying 360's or PS3's; which is why price isn't the driving factor in it's success.

Not necessarily. Price cuts drove more sales for X360 and PS3, neither of them are as cheap as the Wii (except maybe the X360 core package). If they could afford to be as cheap as the Wii, they would be flying.

A Honda vs. a Porsche isn't really an accurate example, since you don't drive differently in the Honda; nor is it creating a whole new market.

I'd personally be more interested in the Wii if all of it's games were compatible with the classic controller. If i were to ware out my wrist I wouldn't want to do it playing video games.

More power than the PS3, probably a blu-ray drive; the next resolution beyond 1080p, probably support for whatever replaces HDMI. Most of what you predicted for the next xbox, because it's obvious that it's going to be in there. There will probably be some motion detection; since that's been pretty successful so far. It'll most likely be closer to the Wiimote's technology than six-axis, too.

Good chance of the neural headgear too. Some kind of head strap or something. It'll probably require some breaking in like voice command software so it gets to know the user more as an individual, and the data it collects can probably fix on a memory stick for when one transfers to another system that isn't online.

I'm sure the PS4 will be more powerful than the xbox 3, but by the time the PS4 comes out, the xbox 4 will be out as well and it'll be at least as powerful as the PS4. It's impossible to say which will be more powerful than the other, but they should be pretty comparable. The Wii 2 will also be out by that point, and it'll be a major jump up in power from it's current version as well; probably comparable to the PS3's power right now.

PS4 is scheduled for release in about 8 more years. It's not really known when XboX3 will come about. (or is it ?). But until then it's hard to imagine Microsoft releasing 2 consoles within these 8 years.

The way i see it XboX 3 will need some serious exclusives, just as the PS3 needed it. The PS3 had a very rough start. Right now PS3 games take longer to make, but it being a Blu-Ray player helped it out. I doubt X3 will have a new format to campaign for it's release. Blu-Ray is bound to stick around for a good while. X3 will be fencing against an evolved PS3 as well.

Nintendo's next move is extremely difficult to predict. I'm sure IBM will implement Cell technology into the next gen Nintendo console. I know IBM still experiments with cell based plates to make microchips, and probably walk on their own without Sony and Toshiba. Like the Game Cube, the Wii is an IBM computer, who better to do it again for Nintendo.

Sony will probably implement multiple Cell chips, and rig the cores to share a single cache for the sake of going easy on developers with the PS4. Thanks to the PS3, making the PS4 in this manner will be cheap to do, and maybe this time go with the best GPU availible.

 

[Anglis]

Oh, and.
Playstation 9 damn well better be able to accomplish this.

If gaming ever came to this, the world as we know it would eventually end. People would lose themselves in virtual reality and the economy would drop. Marriages would end in divorce, relationships in general would end. People would not come back into the real world.



THE MATRIX WOULD BEGIN!

 

[RaidrX]

THE MATRIX WOULD BEGIN!

Ooo, shotgun being neo :O

 

[Tagrineth]

Incorrect.

PS3 has 2 kinds of RAM it can use both at the same time as well.

If you read about XDR RAM, and what it's doing in the PS3, you'll learn the XboX's GDDR3 is no match.

You should read the thread i made about Crysis and the PS3. It's a good introductory for you're new lesson in PS3's architecture.

No, I'm right. The Dashboard takes up about 30 MB. The PS3's OS takes 96 MB.

 

[Bajaratt]

Price is a big part of the Wii's success. $250 for a brand new console, with ass loads of games, plus developers have an easier time making games for it, and it's easy on the cash, you can't go wrong.

No, it's really not. Success through being cheaper would only apply if there were actually Wii's on the shelves long enough for people to make a comparison. You can't go "well that console is $600, and that other one is $250, so I'll get the cheaper one," when the $250 console is always sold out. The price isn't an issue when people are always camping out for the console before the stores open. People are coming in specifically to buy a Wii, they're not settling for a cheaper unit. Again, they're enjoying it's lower price, but they're buying it because of the wiimote and the games; not because it's cheaper.

Hell, I've bought about 5 Wii's from my store for other people, because they couldn't find them anywhere. And these are not people who would blink over a $350 price difference between the Wii and the PS3.

Game developers are also making more games for it because it's an insanely popular system. There's more Wii consoles out than any other next-gen system, they'd be insane to not want to try reaching an audience that size. They're also enjoying making games with different controls. Before the Wii even came out almost every single third-party developer said they couldn't wait to make games for the Wii because of the controller. I'm sure the developers are enjoying that the games cost less to produce from a graphics standpoint as well; but that's not why they're making games for it.

Developers also don't have that easy of a time to make games for it, since they have completely different tools for the Wiimote versus what they've been using for all of the other consoles. Plus, Nintendo is far more strict about their tests to certify any game that goes on their consoles than Microsoft and Playstation are; that's why there's much fewer truely shit titles on Nintendo platforms than anyone else.

Not necessarily. Price cuts drove more sales for X360 and PS3, neither of them are as cheap as the Wii (except maybe the X360 core package). If they could afford to be as cheap as the Wii, they would be flying.

Again, not really. Yeah, you'd see an increase in sales, but still not like the Wii's sales. The reason the Wii is selling is because they're market is 10 times the size of the 360/PS3's. In general, most people don't have an interest in a 360/PS3, because they're not gamers; but they all want Wii's. A price cut doesn't increase the market, it just increases the percentage of the market that's willing to buy it.

I'd personally be more interested in the Wii if all of it's games were compatible with the classic controller. If i were to ware out my wrist I wouldn't want to do it playing video games.

You don't have to move anywhere near enough to wear out your wrist, or suffer any other effects from playing. You can get up and do grand motions for the games, or you can sit on your couch and do smaller motions. I'd personally be more interested in the PS3 if they actually had more than 2 games worth buying, since all of their "highly anticipated" titles were either rents at best or duds. About 80% of the time when my PS3 is turned on, I'm watching videos through it from my jump drives; but that's what I bought it for.

 

[Anttaru]

No, I'm right. The Dashboard takes up about 30 MB. The PS3's OS takes 96 MB.

That's Mini.

- XDR RAM runs @ 3.2 Ghz
- XDR RAM is 12 times faster than DDR RAM
- Unlike every other RAM XDR has 0 latency (At any speed)
- PS3's XDR RAM achieves 25 Gigabytes per second

 

[Strid]

- Unlike every other RAM XDR has 0 latency (At any speed)

XDR Ram has latency at every speed. Simply put, it's nothing but the next step; nothin' spectacular but better than the last type.

 

[Anttaru]

XDR Ram has latency at every speed. Simply put, it's nothing but the next step; nothin' spectacular but better than the last type.

XDR circuitry is what they call "Flex Phase" which enables data to pass along a more cleverly rigged setup that allows more precise alignment with clock speed.

The second part of dealing with latency in XDR is what they call "Address Topology" or "Fly by Command". It's purpose is to decrease latency, and when performing in the Flex Phase environment, it (as they say) deskewes timing signals, even without clock encoding.

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I know the RAM sucks when running Linux off a PS3, but there is a procedure to raise the given 200MB RAM to 4GB RAM, which is a small piece of what 256MBXDR claims to be able to achieve.

EDIT: Here.

XDR DRAM or extreme data rate dynamic random access memory is a high-performance RAM interface and successor to the Rambus RDRAM it is based on, competing with the rival DDR2 SDRAM and GDDR4 technology. XDR was designed to be effective in small, high-bandwidth consumer systems, high-performance memory applications, and high-end GPUs. It eliminates the unusually high latency problems that plagued early forms of RDRAM. Also, the XDR DRAM have heavy emphasis on per pin bandwidth, which can benefit further cost control on PCB production. This is because fewer lanes are needed for the same amount of bandwidth. Rambus owns the rights to the technology. XDR is used by Sony in the PlayStation 3 console.

 

[Strid]

XDR circuitry is what they call "Flex Phase" which enables data to pass along a more cleverly rigged setup that allows more precise alignment with clock speed.

The second part of dealing with latency in XDR is what they call "Address Topology" or "Fly by Command". It's purpose is to decrease latency, and when performing in the Flex Phase environment, it (as they say) deskewes timing signals, even without clock encoding.

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.
.

I know the RAM sucks when running Linux off a PS3, but there is a procedure to raise the given 200MB RAM to 4GB RAM, which is a small piece of what 256MBXDR claims to be able to achieve.

You could have just said, "You're right, my bad", and saved yourself the trouble.

 

[Tagrineth]

That's Mini.

- XDR RAM runs @ 3.2 Ghz
- XDR RAM is 12 times faster than DDR RAM
- Unlike every other RAM XDR has 0 latency (At any speed)
- PS3's XDR RAM achieves 25 Gigabytes per second

Yeah. The 30MB Dashboard in RAM is what's running while you're in a game. It loads the full Dashboard when you access it, which is why it has to shut down the game when you access the full Dashboard.

The PS3 OS is fully loaded at all times.

Oh and it's physically impossible for RAM to have 0 latency.

Your quote as follows [snipped a bit]-

It eliminates the unusually high latency problems that plagued early forms of RDRAM.

Yeah, old revisions of RDRAM were notorious for having stupidly huge latency. In PCs, SDRAM has latency measured on a range of usually single digit nanoseconds. PC DRDRAM (the only one that ever filtered through to the consumer market, and the memory that is used in PS2) has a terrifyingly huge 30+ nanosecond latency. The problem with the DRDRAM technology was in the way it located data on the channel, combined with its serial nature meant that when actually accessing random memory or finding new data it was VERY slow, but when streaming contiguous data once addressed its effective latency plummeted down to the single digit range with crazy throughput from running at very high clock speeds.

Anyway, tl;dr version: XDR is still RAMBUS technology and is still higher latency than any SDRAM on the market, it's just designed to fix the ungodly horrid latency problems that plagued previous RAMBUS tech.


My point was that the PS3 simply has LESS memory to work with when running games, and of course you made another rather comedic comment...

I know the RAM sucks when running Linux off a PS3, but there is a procedure to raise the given 200MB RAM to 4GB RAM, which is a small piece of what 256MBXDR claims to be able to achieve.

It's still 256MB. Maybe with something like an operating system you can "cheat" and create a swap file on the system's hard drive, which would let you pretend you have several gigs of memory... you could even write the swap file to abuse the RAMBUS memory's extremely high bandwidth by juggling chunks of the swap file in and out of physical memory to optimize performance more than a regular swap file would achieve, and it'd probably be doable because if you're shifting large enouch chunks you could optimize it for RAMBUS's exceptional performance with contiguous data.

Blah blah blah anyway in a game your 256MB is just that, 256MB. If the game needs more data than what's available you could cheat but most of the things you could do to cheat on a PS3 you could do on a 360 too (though I guess it'd most likely require the end user to own the HDD so PS3 has a small leg up here with having one built in), but the performance of the game would take a hit so for the most part with these systems trying to cheat your memory is a bad idea because it could hurt the game's frame rate or responsiveness.



...HARDWARE! \m/

 

[chebo]

has microsoft even started making a 360 yet. untilthen you cant really guess whats going to be in it. and ant stop talking your making shit up as you go along about stuff you have no clue about.

 

[RaidrX]

has microsoft even started making a 360 yet.

Yeah, they started releasing them about 2 and a half years ago