You're gone, good, go away

[Icewolf]

No one said anything about windower because its been argued back and forth for a long time already. It helps, but honestly nothing is really crossing the line enough to call it cheating, so just leave it at that. If it was crossing the line, SE would be banning for it, when as of now they don't really care.

 

[Darthyoda]

I just wanted to ask why no one said anything about using the windower?
I'm sorry but cheating is cheating. There are not gray area's you either are going by the rulez or you are breaking them. Bottom Line.

well.. let's restart this age old debate then.
I used windower....
But, I only used it because I had two monitors.. and clicking between them on accident bumped the game.. then I became addicted to windower....
I think I tried the smn timer thingee once or twice..
Some people like windower for the longer macro lists.
Personally, I think the PC version of the game should be windowed anyway. It's stupid to put a game on PC .. and lock them down to their primary screen....

so, by using windower my 3+years of playing.. was cheating?

 

[diamond]

Im just saying.. not tryin to rehash anything.. just tryin to say that you cant say one form of cheating is worse than the other. I personally use the windower that SE provided. And have no problems with it. I know it doesnt come with all that stuff on the screen.. cause i know that counting to 30 can be difficult for some people.

 

[Flag]

Yes, let's label fucking everybody who uses windower and say that they all use every plugin. Good idea.
I use windower. Wanna know why? Because of the 'Equipment changed.' message shouldn't fucking show in the first place. So the only plugin I use is Silence.
Hurray for 'cheating' because I don't want to see un-necessary messages in my chatlog that shouldn't be there in the first place.
Please don't be ignorant and label everyone right off the bat, Diamond.

 

[Kerowynn]

Im just saying.. not tryin to rehash anything.. just tryin to say that you cant say one form of cheating is worse than the other. I personally use the windower that SE provided. And have no problems with it. I know it doesnt come with all that stuff on the screen.. cause i know that counting to 30 can be difficult for some people.

The windower SE provided hasn't been available very long...using Windower without plugins is no different.

 

[Flag]

There're some problems with the SE windower that aren't present in the unofficial one. That's why some people use it over that.

 

[Icewolf]

Im just saying.. not tryin to rehash anything.. just tryin to say that you cant say one form of cheating is worse than the other.

Well lets seeee, that's because it isn't cheating in the first place? You should probably avoid the flameboard.

 

[diamond]

How can you say its not.. Im pretty sure the ToS says that.. i could be wrong though.. seems to me its the pot calling the kettle black. If you are using the one SE provided then not its not cheating cause they provided it. You download one and use it. You are breaking the rulez plain and simple. You can not justify that. If some one goes to a store and steals a piece of candy, are they not labled a thief just as the person that goes in and steals something of more value? Would you not refer to both people as thieves? If someone lied to you about something reguardless of how big or small. Would you not call them a liar?

~shrugz~

 

[Darthyoda]

You're pulling the age old addage... wrong is wrong..
I can see that.. and agree.

However, when you're using windower as I did.. you're not altering the game in any way except forcing it to window.. you're manipulating it's ability to dominate your screen. That's all.

Now, let's say you're actually using a plugin or two.
Even then.. all you're doing is utilizing a tool that reads the data coming from the game and creating a more readable outlet for it.

Soooo.
the gray line is this.
is it illegal to download and install a freeware application and use it for your own gain?

If you're not modifying the game, how are you violating the Terms Of Service?

It's almost arguable that you could say.. would it be illegal to duplicate the screen from your PC to multiple monitors throughout your house for your convenience.. would that be illegal as well?

Now... I look forward to your reply.

 

[Darthyoda]

also, by your statement I would assume you're saying that any tool or utility that screen caps is illegal.. and cheating.

Fraps, or a video capture.

Don't let the SE police catch all these kids with Digital cameras taking snap shots of their television screens to capture the image of FFXI on their PS2.... slap those cuffs on em !

 

[Tymon]

if you want to be totally literal, any tool or utility other than what SE gives you is illegal.

Doesn't stop me from using windower with a crap ton of plugins, though.

 

[Tim Wakefield]

if you want to be totally literal, any tool or utility other than what SE gives you is illegal.

Doesn't stop me from using windower with a crap ton of plugins, though.

Amen brother. Amen.

I use em all. They make my game experience that much better. I could live without them, but why would I? If I get banned for windower after playing for 5 years and never doing anything other than that, then SE is probably the ones losing out.

 

[Nyett]

Rules were made for idiots, by idiots.

 

[hellstorm]

So is using Windower...

People buy gil/gold/game currency for various reasons. Some people play these games for various reasons. To you its cheating, for some it's leveling the playing field, saving them time farming to play aspects of the game they enjoy more. Some its just simply part of their addiction. This game seems to frown down upon it a lot more than other games I've played where people were very open about buying currency. During my break from FFXI I knew of people who would drop 100s to 1000s of dollars. People that couldnt wait to get their tax returns, of all things, just so they could boost their toons. One guy who debated on whether or not to buy a motorcycle or a top game account, which did he chose? That is just down right addiction, but for some they have more money than time.

I left partly out of addiction, and partly out of .. just being "done" with it.

I always had a particular disdain for gil-sellers.. but I didn't hate gil buyers.. I resented the fact I worked so hard to get something to watch them just "instantly" have it...
But, that was selfish of me. If their morales were loose enough to allow them that luxury, then good for them I guess.

Personally, I don't think purchasing or selling gil should be an issue. I toyed with the notion of selling my account when I retired, but didn't relish the notion that either a gil-seller would be running around in control of my hard work, and well.. it came down to this.
Many people were affiliated with me ingame, and many people respected me. I valued that too much to do anything that would be detrimental to the relationships I forged in-game.
To those who bought gil.. good for you.
To those who didn't. even better.

I won't judge, I won't condemn.. I just think it's more worthwhile to do it the "honest" way.. but in the end.. who cares?

You have to realize what you are saying. Those not so hurtful gilbuyers are the reason the gilsellers are here. These are same gil seller that have stole over 500 accounts, These are same players that first drove prices sky high and now are the ones that are undercutting everyone. The same gilseller that made bots and then other bots where made to combat them. In that case I hold the gilbuyer over that of bots and normal gil seller.
List should go:
account stealing rmt
Bot rmt
gil buyers
non rmt bots
other rmt
flee hackers
other hacks

I just wanted to ask why no one said anything about using the windower? I'm sorry but cheating is cheating. There are not gray area's you either are going by the rulez or you are breaking them. Bottom Line.

Diffrence is this windower, parser, other plug-ins give a avantage to you or everyone. So while it a cheat it would be like using a GPS on a golf course to figure how far to the hole you or your group are.
​

Bots, flee hacks other nasty hacks effect a group of people or everyone depending on the hack. It like picking up your ball and moving it closer, or using a hole seeking ball to get hole in ones.
​

Gil buyers are like you paying someone to play for you you sit back and get the reward that you didn't earn
​

Gil sellers are the sharks that make profited on unsuspecting golfer as will as offer ther services to rig the game for those who will pay
​

Rules were made for idiots, by idiots.

Nice quote but I like this one better. “Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.” FDR

 

[Icewolf]

You can not justify that. If some one goes to a store and steals a piece of candy, are they not labled a thief just as the person that goes in and steals something of more value? Would you not refer to both people as thieves? If someone lied to you about something reguardless of how big or small. Would you not call them a liar?

~shrugz~

Why are you making windower out to be a cheat at all? Using your example, windower is like a guy going into the store, and finding out how he would steal the candy. Buying gil is paying a guy to go in the store and steal the candy for you.

Do you even use windower? Do you know what it does? Your acting like you can turn it on, and let it exp for you. All it does is show distance from mob, shows how much exp your earning, recast timers, and larger macro pallets because SE fails. How is that in any way cheating? It's giving the things SE failed to give us, for who knows why.

I don't even use windower, but I don't look down at those that do. And don't understand why anyone would.

Having said that, the one thing I don't like is the plugin that allows you to look through walls, that's where it's going too far imo. But you never used this to your defense, so don't try to make this your reasoning.

 

[Sandria]

I realize everything I just said; and dare I say it everything I said is fact. I, personally, have never paid for game currency in all the years I've been gaming. I will admit, I was some what considering the notion had I not been able to get my character back. Stone me for thinking about it if you wish, but you'd have to stone all the people who lost their accounts and picked up another lvl 75 character to play with. Now, I honestly doubt that I would have gone with it because I am very apprehensive about giving out credit card info. Now lets follow this example.. and say would it be Okay as long as I bought the gil from a real player who never actually cheated? At that point could we compare it to me trading gil from my account to a new account? Naturally in that sittuation I'd only be buying items that I had at a previous time aquired legitimitly?

Do I agree with the people whom I mentioned spent so much money? Heck no, I would have much rather spent the money in a more constructive manor. Do I know their reasons for buying? Yes. That's the difference.

I will debate very strongly that it is just as hard now, if not more so, for someone to start playing the game than when RMT had a large influence in the game. Those who are buying the gil are also spending it.. (or what other reason would they be buying?) They're buying things you are selling and chances are that they're willing to pay more.

Let's subtract those RMT who have hacked accounts, used illegal tactics to claim monsters to aquire gil, would you be then okay with gilbuying/selling? Basically what I was agreeing to was the person who said they were against the hacking, illegal tactics, etc. To say one triggers the other is not nessessarily true. It's basically like the annalogy of hot in hell... I'd list it like so..

Hacking accounts -> Botting NMs -> Flee tools (but some might argue that using the flee tool is like windower and doesnt harm anyone else unless their is a voke attached to it) -> Gilbuying -> Then windower..

If you use windower with absolutely no plug-ins I'd agree you were not getting an advantage and it would be just like using SE's windower. The minute you add in a plug-in or their large gear swamping macro options-- YOU are gaining an ADVANTAGE that is against ToS. You are still -cheating-. Two-boxing is cheating, I'm not going to breath down someone's neck tho and tell them zomg, go to hell, you windower cheating asshat... Majority of us do cheat in some way or another. Most of us break some law in life too, but its hard to compare jay-walking to murder but they're both still a crime.

 

[Nyett]

Two-boxing is cheating, me.

You can 2 box without using windower. I don't think SE can ban you for using 2 computers. Its also not cheating to own more than one account.

 

[Sandria]

You can 2 box without using windower. I don't think SE can ban you for using 2 computers. Its also not cheating to own more than one account.

I'm refering to two-box on the same computer. Which you cannot do without using windower.

 

[Nyett]

I'm refering to two-box on the same computer. Which you cannot do without using windower.

Still doesn't give an unfair advantage since such advantage can be achieved in other ways, like having 2 computers. Just means more people can use this advantage.

 

[Vafruvant]

I lol'd at this flame. The flame itself is /fail but what it has become has made my day.

I have always referred to anything that breaches SE's lateral policy on 3rd party tools as cheating. The rule is in place for a reason. Regardless of whether you utilize the tools out there to circumvent the system mechanics, they are available to you. As such, that would be like knowing the location of a fencing operation in a downtown neighborhood. You know it's there, you go there to look around but buy nothing. When push comes to shove, you get found Guilty by Association. Do I care if people use Windower? No, it's their account to risk losing, but it's still circumventing the rules.

Here's the real issue here: RMT itself, the idea of it all, doesn't bother me. It's the RMT's in this game, how they conduct themselves, and the manner in which they do so...THAT is what bothers me. If it were a normal, everyday player with some extra gear/gil selling it, I don't care (albeit still a breach of the ToS). If said player sells the gear, and another normal, everyday player buys it to enhance his/her character, fine, so be it. They have harmed no one in this process.

The problem is that our RMT's don't do that. They cause ill effects to the game by their actions. By their desperation to attain X amount of gil, they will do whatever it takes to get it, via cheats, hacks, and when all else fails, straight up stealing. That is what seperates our RMT from normal players. Yes, there are normal players that use cheats/hacks too, but that's not the issue here.

Undercutting the AH adversely affects the future of the game; yes it can be done by any player, but the RMT's take it to an extreme. That's yet another reason why RMT's are like an infestation you cannot remove. Back before O.Kote, E.Bow, etc, were RA/EX, who were the ones you always saw camping them? RMT. Again, yes, regular players could do that too, and did, but point here being that the RMT got countless drops only to sell them. If they were not getting an actual RL benefit out of it, you think they'd waste so much time there? Hell no. In fact, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that if they weren't getting RL money out of it, they wouldn't even be playing the game. Repeated camping inherently blocks others' chance to get the dropped item. Fair? No. Cheating? No, but that is what makes gil sellers different than just selling currency.

The point people are trying to get across here is this: online gil is a supply and demand market; if the demand is low, the supply will be flooded and companies will go out of business because of it. If no one bought gil PERIOD, the market would not even exist. RMT's would not be strolling around on our server, making average player life a living hell. People who buy gil only support the beast known as RMT.

To the OP: Your reaction to this was...melodramatic at best. I'm not going to shun you for feeling frustrated by it, but what he said was true. It didn't need to be said in his going away post, but that was his choice to make, not yours.

To iaredrew (aka Alfonze) You once said in ls chat something to the effect of: "...but really, who doesn't buy gil these days?..." Answer is, a lot of people. There are more honest players in the game then there are dishonest (at least I like to believe so). These people work for their gil, level a craft, farm/sell items on AH.

All in all, this thread is typical QCDN Flameboard materia(l) and Rappa is king. /end rant