Don't where to put this.

Necrosis said:
Yes, because god forbid we be efficient with our exping.

I gotta tell ya though, Necro. That's the attitude that irks guys like me. By your philosophy, no one should ever be leveling any job that doesn't maximize xp efficiency, or at least if they choose to, it should of necessity be in a static, as it is otherwise some great injustice visited upon all us merit whores, present or future.

It's for that reason I said "good luck having your HNMs tanked by 73 Plds," because, by your philosophy(at least as I'm understanding it), no one ever has any need whatsoever to level a job so woefully inefficient as Pld, especially after :Ni lets all jobs "tank" xp/merit mobs to greater and lesser degrees.

For that matter, let's just do away with all diversity whatsoever and all rush out and level War, Nin, Brd, and Rdm. I'd think that someone such as yourself that's experienced firsthand the woeful invite rate and misconceptions that Thf suffers, you'd be a bit more sympathetic.
 
I gotta tell ya though, Necro. That's the attitude that irks guys like me. By your philosophy, no one should ever be leveling any job that doesn't maximize xp efficiency, or at least if they choose to, it should of necessity be in a static, as it is otherwise some great injustice visited upon all us merit whores, present or future.

It's for that reason I said "good luck having your HNMs tanked by 73 Plds," because, by your philosophy(at least as I'm understanding it), no one ever has any need whatsoever to level a job so woefully inefficient as Pld, especially after :Ni lets all jobs "tank" xp/merit mobs to greater and lesser degrees.

For that matter, let's just do away with all diversity whatsoever and all rush out and level War, Nin, Brd, and Rdm. I'd think that someone such as yourself that's experienced firsthand the woeful invite rate and misconceptions that Thf suffers, you'd be a bit more sympathetic.
Way to read into what he's not saying; at this point you're just copy and pasting your tired and irrelevant mantra, regardless of how it doesn't apply to what's being discussed. Seriously, you're just getting stupid with the wild logical leaps away from what's actually being said.

No one ever said that the only jobs that should be leveled are the cannon jobs; the only thing people have said is that the non-cannon jobs should not try to join the cannons. You can get good exp in a non-cannon party, so stick to those. The problem is that the people playing non-cannon jobs are stupidily thinking they can perform just as well as a cannon job in a merit party and are demanding to be invited to those cannons. It's not going to happen, and rather than make their own parties and get the best exp their job is capable of getting; they bitch and call the cannon-ers elitist for trying to maximize their exp/hour. They don't want to play the game, they wanted it handed to them on a silver platter.

Necro was talking about efficiency, getting the most exp/hour that you can. Even in a non-cannon, that should be the primary concern. If you're a cannon job, your prime efficiency is in a cannon; if you're not a cannon job, join a different party. You apparently don't understand what efficiency is, since you've yet to show you understand that some jobs are just better in exp than others.

Lastly, drop the "all your pld's will be 73" line, it's retarded. I said so before, if the PLD is dying all the time, the linkshell will get them their buffer back, if the PLD is too lazy/stupid to use all of the free and easy means to get their buffer back by themselves. If the PLD in your linkshell is going to delevel, YOU had better be the one out there helping him regain that buffer before you start ranting like an idiot. Hell, unless they or their mages suck, tanks don't die that much anymore, usually the only time they die is when a NM gets a lucky combination in.

Tell the PLD's to get some friends, or to just get off their lazy asses and go solo the few thousand(or more, depending on besieged frequency) exp/week they can get.
 
Baj?

If you can show me where it's clearly stated that Necro is specifically referring to cannon xp vs. a more standard style setup, I'll gladly eat my hat, horns and all. I'm well aware of the distinction between cannon jobs and non-cannon jobs, and trust me - I know all too well that some jobs xp faster than others. That's why I'm not showing up on Bst or Blm and demanding my "rightful place" in some cannon party, nor is the OP. He's talking about parties in general and the fact that there are probably teeming hordes of non-cannon jobs out there who ignore his friend in the hopes of snagging a spot where they can "leech" off a setup that's decidedly more cannon-esque.

I know what I do well. I know what the jobs I enjoy playing do well. What I'm not getting is how my response to someone effectively "loling," (in howevermuch a non-assholish way it may have been intended) at someone who was talking about a non-cannon setup, is buying me grief from you.

If that's what he means, however, I apologize.
 
i know how necro is. he's the kind of person that likes his parties at peak performance all the time. his views of non-cannon jobs being beneith him (figurativly speaking) to most people make him come off as an eleitist. well...........ok so he is. he knows how to max out exp so he see's fit to do it always. cant really blame him for using a style that he knows will work.

enjoying your exp parties is a relative term though. personally i like manaburns & traditional parties over cannons. i've healed cannons and although the exp is nice i get bored way to fast. im just glad that they dont last to long. i dont need 20-30k an hour to feel accomplished. in the past the feeling i got when i joined an exp party it was to interact with your fellow gamers while having a fun time taking out the mobs. now its about who can parce the highest and rake in the most exp in the shortest amount of time. it seems everyone with a cannon job feels they have waisted their time if they dont reach a certain exp per an hour quota. said attitude "implies" that everyone should lvl a cannon job and also is slowly making the game more and more stagnant. least thats how i feel about this.

its the main reason i dont like this expantion and im hopping like hell WotG help to breath some life back into this game. ToAU has made the EXP scene far to 1-sided. cannoners can repeat "i never said people should only lvl cannon jobs" as much as they like. the dmg has already been done.
 
Tell the PLD's to get some friends, or to just get off their lazy asses and go solo the few thousand(or more, depending on besieged frequency) exp/week they can get.
prior to ToAU this mindset was non-existant. pld's having to soloing to get exp back? only thing more out of place then that is blm's having to resort to soloing for steady exp gain. i was in Pso 'jxa to day and tyrath spotted me down there. at first he assumed i was doing something with CoP but when i told him i was soloing he pulled a ":shok: WTF" on me.

maybe SE should just shatter the exp party aspect of this game all together. except for cannon jobs of course.
 
prior to ToAU this mindset was non-existant. pld's having to soloing to get exp back? only thing more out of place then that is blm's having to resort to soloing for steady exp gain. i was in Pso 'jxa to day and tyrath spotted me down there. at first he assumed i was doing something with CoP but when i told him i was soloing he pulled a ":shok: WTF" on me.

maybe SE should just shatter the exp party aspect of this game all together. except for cannon jobs of course.
Yes, because there was absolutely nothing that a PLD could do besides party or solo to regain their exp before ToAU. Oh wait, escorts and ENM's were added years before ToAU came out. Before besieged, you could get around 3,000 EXP per week through the solo ENM, an escort and one of the exp quests in riverne: site B; plus there were more ENM's you could do to gain even more exp. Yeah, it's impossible for a PLD to gain exp by themselves before besieged. :wacko:

Even without looking to solo/low man methods to gain exp, they can still get parties. It's called friends, if you hit 75 and you don't have any, you should quit immediately because you wasted your time getting there. You don't want to invite a paladin, that's your business, but get off your high horse first.

enjoying your exp parties is a relative term though. personally i like manaburns & traditional parties over cannons. i've healed cannons and although the exp is nice i get bored way to fast. im just glad that they dont last to long. i dont need 20-30k an hour to feel accomplished. in the past the feeling i got when i joined an exp party it was to interact with your fellow gamers while having a fun time taking out the mobs. now its about who can parce the highest and rake in the most exp in the shortest amount of time. it seems everyone with a cannon job feels they have waisted their time if they dont reach a certain exp per an hour quota. said attitude "implies" that everyone should lvl a cannon job and also is slowly making the game more and more stagnant. least thats how i feel about this.
You join shitty cannons then. I only party with friends, so when I cannon, we have fun. Hell, during the original 2-hander parsing party, we had a ton of fun; telling jokes and making fun of how gimp Jamal was the whole time; all while pulling in over 20k an hour. Hell, unless someone says they're parsing the party, no one else knows or even cares about the results; only having a good time and getting the best exp they can get.

You're making it sound like trying to improve your performance is a bad thing and it's ruining the game; but then you seem to be of the opinion that any exp > no exp(which is lol). Efficiency is a good thing, since you don't seem to understand that; there is nothing wrong with wanting to not waste your time/gil/items getting shitty exp, so trying to improve that performance is in no way bad. Hell, some people flat-out hate exping, so the less they have to exp, the more time they have to spend on the things they do enjoy. If everyone listened to you and didn't care about improving themselves or actually trying, then all of those people would probably quit the game because they'd have to drudge through significantly more of the thing they hate.

Reauland, I didn't see anywhere that Necro said that everyone should have to level a cannon job, or that only cannon jobs should get invites; just that they get the most exp, which is a fact. The closest thing he said was that he prefers cannon exp, so those who are fine with the exp gain of normal parties can stick with those if they want. Still no where near to what you were responding to, especially with that paladin crap. He laughed at pup, because that's their role in the game at this point, to laugh at.
 
You're making it sound like trying to improve your performance is a bad thing and it's ruining the game; but then you seem to be of the opinion that any exp > no exp(which is lol). Efficiency is a good thing, since you don't seem to understand that; there is nothing wrong with wanting to not waste your time/gil/items getting shitty exp, so trying to improve that performance is in no way bad. Hell, some people flat-out hate exping, so the less they have to exp, the more time they have to spend on the things they do enjoy. If everyone listened to you and didn't care about improving themselves or actually trying, then all of those people would probably quit the game because they'd have to drudge through significantly more of the thing they hate.

improvement in exp is a good thing but this improvement isnt universal. in the past traditional setups improvement was made without narrowing the jobs of choise down to 5. cannons have improved the standing for you and the other jobs that are cannon friendly. at the same time made things worse for non-cannon jobs. thanx to that 2handed update things have evened out slightly. and yes some people do hate exp so the faster the better. well if said person isnt a war/mnk/nin/rdm/brd where are they gonna get this 20-30k hr exp that cannons are capable of pumping out? cannon exp parties are more or less a members only club cattoring(sp) to only a few select jobs. and any job that cant keep up is just tossed aside as not needed.

and you misunderstand baj. yes pld's could solo to get their exp back in those days any job could. but what pld thought about needing to solo since all he had to do was throw up his/her flag and before they knew it they would have to beat invites off with his/her sword. this more or less doesnt effect players like you directly you have 2 (maybe 3 now since you have a 75 sam) cannon friendly jobs. you and i have played this game through the ages but it bothers me to see a strong job tossed aside cause it cant work in a cannon party.
 
improvement in exp is a good thing but this improvement isnt universal.
Yes, it is. Unless you're sitting there with the absolute best of the best gear(and merits), with 5 other people equally decked out and all with the attitude to get the most exp they can; then there will always be room for improvement. Job is irrelevant.

in the past traditional setups improvement was made without narrowing the jobs of choise down to 5. cannons have improved the standing for you and the other jobs that are cannon friendly. at the same time made things worse for non-cannon jobs. thanx to that 2handed update things have evened out slightly. and yes some people do hate exp so the faster the better. well if said person isnt a war/mnk/nin/rdm/brd where are they gonna get this 20-30k hr exp that cannons are capable of pumping out?
They can't, it's a limitation of the job, get over it. In order for those other jobs to get that kind of exp, they'd have to be made into the cannon jobs. All the jobs have different roles(except pup, unless you count sucking as a role); MNK/WAR/NIN just happens to be massive damage over time, which is what makes them successful in cannons.

cannon exp parties are more or less a members only club cattoring(sp) to only a few select jobs. and any job that cant keep up is just tossed aside as not needed.
Yes, and the very ironic thing is that ALL of those damage dealers in cannons were the ones being shunned originally. It was even more of a pain in the ass to get invites back then than it is for non-cannoners to get invites now. The difference being that while a non-cannon job can't join a cannon, they can still fit in pretty damn well to a non-cannon party; whereas the cannon jobs wouldn't get any invites.

and you misunderstand baj. yes pld's could solo to get their exp back in those days any job could. but what pld thought about needing to solo since all he had to do was throw up his/her flag and before they knew it they would have to beat invites off with his/her sword.
Oh, so now they actually have to put a smidgen of effort into getting exp, and they(and you) are crying foul? If that's the case, today's PLD's are in desperate need of both brains and balls.

[/quote]this more or less doesnt effect players like you directly you have 2 (maybe 3 now since you have a 75 sam) cannon friendly jobs. you and i have played this game through the ages but it bothers me to see a strong job tossed aside cause it cant work in a cannon party.[/QUOTE]
Yes, because obvious I have no idea what it's like to level an undesirable job; except for monk back before everyone started bandwagoning it. And samurai was a pain in the ass before the 2-hander update. I leeched off a few cannons that were put together by my friends so that I could level faster. But apparently I'm in the minority because I have friends that will help me.

Also, no one is "tossed aside" except for pup, and only because it's not strong so it doesn't meet your criteria. The rest still get invites, just not to cannons. From your post, it sounds more like you're upset that they're no longer the "chosen jobs" rather than upset about any disparity between the jobs.
 
Yes, it is. Unless you're sitting there with the absolute best of the best gear(and merits), with 5 other people equally decked out and all with the attitude to get the most exp they can; then there will always be room for improvement. Job is irrelevant.
im not refering to gear. thats not the issue.

They can't, it's a limitation of the job, get over it. In order for those other jobs to get that kind of exp, they'd have to be made into the cannon jobs. All the jobs have different roles(except pup, unless you count sucking as a role); MNK/WAR/NIN just happens to be massive damage over time, which is what makes them successful in cannons.
i think that is what i was saying. IE: those 3 are cannon jobs now.

Yes, and the very ironic thing is that ALL of those damage dealers in cannons were the ones being shunned originally. It was even more of a pain in the ass to get invites back then than it is for non-cannoners to get invites now. The difference being that while a non-cannon job can't join a cannon, they can still fit in pretty damn well to a non-cannon party; whereas the cannon jobs wouldn't get any invites.
blame that on the bandwagoning fools that only ran to what was popular at the time (like rng or blm). said practice will bever go out of style anyway. i saw it as their fault they were to dumb to realize that a DD is only as good as the player behind it. i make 95% of all the exp parties im in. and anyone that knows me will tell you that i dont discriminate. i dont lump a certain job into a "this job sux" box simply because i've had a bad exprience with it. the individual gets filed in the "do not invite ever again" folder. which further enforces something i keep having to repeat: its not the job its the player controling it.

Oh, so now they actually have to put a smidgen of effort into getting exp, and they(and you) are crying foul? If that's the case, today's PLD's are in desperate need of both brains and balls.
what i see is a perseived lack of need for them. players that didnt play this game before ToAU only see and hear about nin tanks for just about everything. and they see pld's not getting invites but nin's are getting eaten up by parties all the time. they get in their heads that pld's are useless. and that is the problem. you and i know what a pld can do but that knowldege is dying out.

Yes, because obvious I have no idea what it's like to level an undesirable job; except for monk back before everyone started bandwagoning it. And samurai was a pain in the ass before the 2-hander update. I leeched off a few cannons that were put together by my friends so that I could level faster. But apparently I'm in the minority because I have friends that will help me.
did i not say i've played this game almost as long as you have. i know first hand that monks were perceived as undesireable back then. and to this day i have no idea why. almost every monk i invited did very well. and as you have gone through the process and made it to 75 i would think you would know this better then i do. i lvled said style jobs myself. drk thf and smn for example. thf was something of an exception at the time but all around me "oh drks dont get invites dont lvl it" or "smn main heal (Too Weak) you'll have a hard time getting exp" statements. so i did the smart thing. Made My Parties. and anyone that complained about not getting exp back then was just to damn lazy to take the inicitive to do so. and idk where sam ever had a hard time lvling i saw em in parties all the time. only time I ever complained is when there weren't enough people to form a party with. i stopped lvling drk when elph said she wanted to lvl a job with my smn so thats the only reason i dont have a 75 drk as well. you were able to turn to your friends to do the same. well not everyone has a network such as that.

Cannons are a godsend for those who spend the majority of their time in endgame. thats how i see them. i dont have engame requiements eating up my time so i can feel accomplished in any style party setup that works. and i dont brag about the super high chains. just about how well the group worked together. REGUARDLESS of what job they came as.
 
im not refering to gear. thats not the issue.
Considering that's all you can test via parsing and you're under the mistaken belief that every cannon is always parsed; gear is relevant. It's also the mind set, those with the right mindset(they want to improve) are going to have the best gear they can get. They are also the ones who are going to get the best exp.

i think that is what i was saying. IE: those 3 are cannon jobs now.
So, you're saying you want to make every job exactly the same?

blame that on the bandwagoning fools that only ran to what was popular at the time (like rng or blm). said practice will bever go out of style anyway. i saw it as their fault they were to dumb to realize that a DD is only as good as the player behind it. i make 95% of all the exp parties im in. and anyone that knows me will tell you that i dont discriminate. i dont lump a certain job into a "this job sux" box simply because i've had a bad exprience with it. the individual gets filed in the "do not invite ever again" folder. which further enforces something i keep having to repeat: its not the job its the player controling it.
Except that it IS the job. Each job has a different role, and some of those roles are more suited to cannon-style exp than others. You have to be an incredibly well geared thief to compete with a decently geared mnk/war/nin; on top of you have to competely ignore your jobs role to have a chance at matching them. Unless you fight a mob weak to your damage type, you're not going to be as effective as another job; that's why they are called cannon jobs, because they are the only jobs that can get cannon-level exp. PUP has no purpose at this point. They're monk-lite with a pet.

This is turning into a skill > gear argument, which although skill has it's virtues, there are a shitload of things that skill is utterly useless for. No amount of skill will make you hit harder, faster or more often; only gear can do that.

what i see is a perseived lack of need for them. players that didnt play this game before ToAU only see and hear about nin tanks for just about everything. and they see pld's not getting invites but nin's are getting eaten up by parties all the time. they get in their heads that pld's are useless. and that is the problem. you and i know what a pld can do but that knowldege is dying out.
I have yet to see anyone say PLD's are useless anywhere. Anyone who even starts thinking that is a moron that I'd rather not have anything to do with anyways. PLD's don't get as many invites because they require more maintenance than a ninja does in exp; lowering the amount of time you can go between breaks to restore mp; Ninja is just sadly more efficient for exp. There is no "percieved lack of need" for paladins, especially not from anyone not retarded who's actually in endgame.

you were able to turn to your friends to do the same. well not everyone has a network such as that.
So not everyone is able to make friends, find a linkshell? This is an incredibly social game, more so than a lot of other MMO's where you solo all the way to max level. The odds of you getting very far without making at least acquaintances is impossibly small.

Cannons are a godsend for those who spend the majority of their time in endgame. thats how i see them. i dont have engame requiements eating up my time so i can feel accomplished in any style party setup that works. and i dont brag about the super high chains. just about how well the group worked together. REGUARDLESS of what job they came as.
So you think that a group working well together is unique to non-cannons? Without co-ordination and teamwork, they'd never get the kind of exp they do. If anything, they work even better together, because they don't require.

Even before I joined an endgame linkshell, I HATED parties with shitty setups that got slow exp. The was before there even were cannons(except manaburns), back when distortion + freeze was king. If we didn't do 3,000 exp in the first hour, I was gone. The people who say any exp > no exp either have no sense of value for their time/gil or have no life to waste.
 
Yes there is a Life beyond merits!


Other than that, yea don't give a damn to what Necro says on pup/pld etc. Necrosis is the same as always, full of shit, on my blist for a looong time, everyone should do the same!


Hmmm

A piece of incredibly generic information that's somewhat helpful (maybe) in that it might get some tightwads to pull their heads from their asses...Followed up by one of the stupidest things you could possibly say.

In conclusion, thanks, and go scratch.
 
i've never said any exp is better then no exp. traditional setups can be sucky too. but thats only if the players controlling them are sucky. which sadly is the case these days cause i rightfully fear low lvl parties now. then again i may just be lucky cause i can count on 1 hand(figuretivly speaking) the number of parties i personally put together that sucked. and i can trace all of them to the player not the job. a DD is just that. their job is to enflict dmg onto the mob. they do this in diferent maners but they are all at their core DD's. War/mnk/nin are better at DoT style damage then our 2 handers. thf/drk/drg/sam/rng are our spikers. both have their place.

i know skill will not compensate for ability. you cant get your Ichi cast time down to 28 seconds without haste gear. no amount skill will do that. im not trying to turn this into a skill > gear agrument cause im not talking about gear at all. im talking about job perceptions. im refering to the newer players who do nohting but lvl grind that have warped perceptions of what works and what doesnt. you dont see this cause you have a good group of people to lvl with. you're never expossed to them (be greatful for that too). and even with a LS there is no gaurantee(sp) that you will get help all the time for exp parties. sounds easy on paper but not always readly availible.

you see cannons as the best way to exp. i only think cannons are the fastest way to exp. i love to be in parties that just exp for the fun of it. manaburns appeal more to me then TP burns cause i feel more usefel in them. sure i have to keep refresh on everyone but i directly hurt the mob as well. im not a heal/haste drone like in TP burn parties. rdm was my first job. i didnt lvl it so i could be an exp junkie which is why i see people lvling it nowadays (and poorly at that). and traditional setups let me just chill and see how strong a skillchain i can make with my SC partner. i'd join a cannon if one aproached me but i dont limit myself to them only.

im just stating my oppinoin really. i have no desire for this to get heated cause i respect your ability as a player.
 
i've never said any exp is better then no exp. traditional setups can be sucky too. but thats only if the players controlling them are sucky. which sadly is the case these days cause i rightfully fear low lvl parties now. then again i may just be lucky cause i can count on 1 hand(figuretivly speaking) the number of parties i personally put together that sucked. and i can trace all of them to the player not the job. a DD is just that. their job is to enflict dmg onto the mob. they do this in diferent maners but they are all at their core DD's. War/mnk/nin are better at DoT style damage then our 2 handers. thf/drk/drg/sam/rng are our spikers. both have their place.

i know skill will not compensate for ability. you cant get your Ichi cast time down to 28 seconds without haste gear. no amount skill will do that. im not trying to turn this into a skill > gear agrument cause im not talking about gear at all. im talking about job perceptions. im refering to the newer players who do nohting but lvl grind that have warped perceptions of what works and what doesnt. you dont see this cause you have a good group of people to lvl with. you're never expossed to them (be greatful for that too). and even with a LS there is no gaurantee(sp) that you will get help all the time for exp parties. sounds easy on paper but not always readly availible.

you see cannons as the best way to exp. i only think cannons are the fastest way to exp. i love to be in parties that just exp for the fun of it. manaburns appeal more to me then TP burns cause i feel more usefel in them. sure i have to keep refresh on everyone but i directly hurt the mob as well. im not a heal/haste drone like in TP burn parties. rdm was my first job. i didnt lvl it so i could be an exp junkie which is why i see people lvling it nowadays (and poorly at that). and traditional setups let me just chill and see how strong a skillchain i can make with my SC partner. i'd join a cannon if one aproached me but i dont limit myself to them only.

im just stating my oppinoin really. i have no desire for this to get heated cause i respect your ability as a player.

The Most skilled and Best Geared players in this game I have met for the past 3 years have ALL without exception had at least one of the cannon jobs available to them. The Best geared PLD's on this server ALSO have other jobs available to them to cannon, the best-geared WARs in all likelihood have other jobs that they can use WAR to merit for. The Best BLM in the game is ALSO the best meriting BRD in the game.

We become elitest for a reason, and we strive for the best in every facet of the game. When going for experience points, we find the jobs that are best suited to make those points count.

And a HUGE lol to your PLD73 comment. Now more than ever there is an availability for PLD to keep a buffer. I have a 30k buffer, and haven't exp'd on my PLD in over a year and a half. If you want merits, get a merit job. If you want end-game, get an end-game job. If you want to tank, get a tank job. If you want to Cure people, get a curing Job. If you want to Suck, Get PUP.
 
I know how they feel about not getting invites because of the job they lvled, when I first tried to lvl drg I eventually gave up after 2 weeks without a single invite. after a time I returned and lvled drg sparing no expense and finding lots of people who would repeatedly invite me when they made PTs. I'm all for lvling the jobs you enjoy the most.

That said, my first experience with a pup in merit, not only did I outparse the pup and his puppet, but my wyvern also outparsed the two of them combined... never had I imagined that someone could be that useless, he's not doing noticeable damage, not tanking, not healing or buffing, why is he in my PT. I'm sure pup is capable of a lot more than that and maybe even fully pimped out they can beat some AH DDs but I donno, guess I need to see it happen to regain faith in SE that the job can do something.
 
I still beleive that the cannon jobs are more wantd because it's harder for a person to be stupid enough to screw up auto attacking till 100tp then ws than to play another jo which might require them to pay attention. At the very least that's my reason for avioding non cannon jobs in exp.
I actually see cannon jobs outperformed by the non cannon job i snuck into a party very often.
Basically a cannon DD is a safe bet vs something unsure and untested(and probably made of fail from previous experience).
If you dont know for sure that said non cannon player has the brain capacity to do/gear thier job right why should you go for the unsafe bet?
 
Back
Top