Dynamis Antics

[Divinius]

Again with the naive assumption that every person in a shell that habitually zone-jacks is utterly ignorant of this board and its Dynamis scheduling system.

OK, fine. I concede defeat. If you want to associate with potential douchebags rather than take the simple step of making them aware of their douchebaggery, so be it. Who am I to stop you. I'll just be over here on Sylph where we don't have a scheduling system.

I never said everyone in the shell was blameless, I just said that not everyone in the shell should be blamed. Huge difference.

Also, making the other people in the shell aware that their leaders are ignoring a scheduling system is fine. But explain to me how blacklisting them informs them of that? Chances are that if they don't know about the system, they aren't going to know why they are blacklisted, assuming they even realize they are blacklisted, which (due to the way it works) they won't.

 

[Reauland]

So once we've actually seen members of a shell being informed in /say about the scheduling forum only for them to say that said informant is QQ'ing and should "get over it" while members of the shell stand there mute, are we cool at that point to assume it's a shell full of asshats that is deserving of a little social ostracism? After all, silence assumes consent, does it not?

 

[jyakotsu]

I never said everyone in the shell was blameless, I just said that not everyone in the shell should be blamed. Huge difference.

Also, making the other people in the shell aware that their leaders are ignoring a scheduling system is fine. But explain to me how blacklisting them informs them of that? Chances are that if they don't know about the system, they aren't going to know why they are blacklisted, assuming they even realize they are blacklisted, which (due to the way it works) they won't.

Div it isn't so much as blacklisting them as Blackballing them. Alot of people on this server take the dynamis scheduling seriously, those that don't adhere to the scheduling and instead go along with those Q.Qing usually get blackballed in alot of things later on down the road, unless the solely stick to just that shell.

 

[Divinius]

So once we've actually seen members of a shell being informed in /say about the scheduling forum only for them to say that said informant is QQ'ing and should "get over it" while members of the shell stand there mute, are we cool at that point to assume it's a shell full of asshats that is deserving of a little social ostracism? After all, silence assumes consent, does it not?

OK fine. You have a shell that openly flies in the face of the scheduling system. You know they are aware of it, there was a conversation in say around the trail marking for example, and one or more of the members/leaders openly mocked or refused to use the system. Those people get listed on here, "blackballed", whatever. That's fine, those people are jerks and deserve it. But also, any other member of that shell that was unfortunate enough to be present for the conversation, that didn't say anything for fear of getting kicked from their shell, or who didn't immediately up and drop their pearl, also gets their name posted on here and labeled a "douchebag" and gets blackballed.

You actually expect all of those people to say, "Oh gosh, this shell I've been in for the past 3 years, and has gotten me a lot of relic, doesn't play by the arbitrary 'rules' of this new server (that our old server never had). A lot of people on this server are mad at us. I should totally leave this shell, even though I'm next in line for my Duelist's Chapeau and try to find another shell where I can start all my points from scratch."

See, that's the thing. I try to put myself into the shoes of others. I try to find reasons to not immediately hate on people unless they give me a good reason to. Yes, silence assumes consent, but I'm a lot more forgiving of someone reluctantly consenting to something they aren't comfortable with given their circumstances than I'd be of the person or people actually causing the problem. Most people in this thread have thus far made no distinction between those two, and that's the part I personally feel is unfair.

If you want to warn people of the rogue shells, that's fine. If I knew which shell jacked our Bastok a few weekes ago, I'd have posted which one it was on here too (when questioned, they admitted to knowing of the QCDN scheduling and mocked it). If you want to list names of the people who act like jerks in game, that's fine. That's the whole point of this board, and I think it's great. And hell, if you want to personally inform every member of a shell lead by jerks that their shell is lead by jerks, that's fine too.

But as soon as you start telling people, "Hey, the shell you are in is lead by jerks, and even though you never did anything personally jerkish, if you don't quit the shell, then you are going to automatically be considered a jerk too, and I'm going to post your name on the QCDN boards, and everyone that reads them is going to ostracize you," that's the point where I think you've become the jerk.

When people on here start doing stuff like that (and in general start acting like the schedule police), I really think it makes the QCDN sheduling system appear to be "run by jerks" to people in the game (it's not, but it gives that impression). And (as I've said before) all you end up doing at that point is risking giving justification to the rogue shells to continue to ignore the system.

 

[Raesvelg]

Yes, people who will buck the system, so to speak, for their own personal gain, can get classified as douchebags.

You can justify it any number of ways. But ultimately, that's what it is.

 

[jyakotsu]

This is where I disagree. 100% Sorry Div.

If a person is in a dick shell that doesn't try to at least be amicable in a new environment then yea he is as just as much to blame as everyone else. Keeping quiet does not excuse a person from being in the "wrong."

If a person stays quiet and doesn't say anything while he/she sees a bunch of people from another shell standing outside of a zone(while trading his/her glass), then yes he/she knows that there is someone waiting there. How would you like it if someone came along and stole a summoner burn in front of a bunch of others that are waiting in line. Then their response was, idk I was just following the leader of my party. You would be pissed, same goes with this scheduling system.... in most situations there have been people waiting outside of the dynamis zone forming parties, while someone comes swooping in and trades the glass while more come running in.

Staying quiet has caused several situations including a jacked Yin yang robe which caused world war 2 in this server. Alot of names were thrown under a bus in that ordeal, and the person who stole the yin yang robe stayed quiet the entire time while his leaders were the ones who were yelling. Similar situation I assure you.

Rogue shells or not, do not dictate a person to openly /trade. There are alot of examples of people saying "this isn't right, even if I am up for gear." You dictate whether or not your name will be tarnished in this game, but if people from midgard feel that gear is greater than making peace on this server then they will continue to make their "midgard" title over their heads bigger and bigger...

 

[Tristam Green]

whoa.

1.) calm down jyak, i get what divinius is getting at.
2.) divinius, I assume what you're saying is that "it's hard to ask a large group of midgardians(sp) to change five years' worth of behaviorisms". i don't think that's what anyone is truly asking (mostly).
3.) dick shells will always be dick shells.
4.) midgardian shells that *don't* necessarily use our scheduling system aren't being blackballed, and neither are the users therein.
5.) midgardian shells that cop an attitude of "fuck your schedule bitches get here sooner" while readying for a zone against a qc-established shell that uses the scheduling system, will not be thought of highly. they will be thought of in the same vein as the shitface shells that have been on qc ever since world transference was opened to all users for the low-low cost of $25.
6.) qc shells that act like dicks towards midgardian shells and effectively do the same thing will also be thought of as such.


WHAT THE FUCK PEOPLE I THOUGHT WE WERE BEYOND THIS BULLSHIT

 

[Raesvelg]

Ultimately, the scheduling system represents a group compromise. People, rather than simply always trying for the zones they really want to do, attempting to reach a fair distribution of those zones, and make sure that conflicts don't happen.

When a shell refuses to go along with that, whatever the justification, they are effectively placing themselves "above" the shells that do consent to compromise. It's small wonder that people will get upset about it.

There are excuses. JP shells are frequently unaware of the existence of the scheduling board, or in rarer cases, have insufficient mastery of English to understand it. However, given the time zone differences, it's uncommon for JP shells to intrude into what is typically considered NA Dynamis primetime.

What is not an excuse is "well, we never used a system before". That's just plain laziness, and an unwillingness to submit to the group compromise. It takes very little effort to sign up, figure out a schedule in advance, post it, and if necessary work out a compromise with other shells if there are conflicts.

I'd wager that there are vanishingly few members of these shells that are totally unaware of the scheduling system. I concede that the majority of them are probably just keeping their heads down and lotting their relics, rather than rocking the boat and losing the time invested in a given shell.

I also don't give a shit. Motive does not obviate responsibility. If the majority of the shell cared, they could effect a change in the behavior of the shell. With habitual offenders, that is obviously not the case.

So.

How do we make them care? We make the consequences of their actions personal, rather than simply harsh words at a collective audience.

 

[Jeska]

Exactly. Jeska Godwin'd the thread on his own. It's not your fault, Nicolette.



I love this board.

Sorry I meant to parrell Stalinism there and got my old dictators mixed up. ^^

And I've disputed with many linkshell leaders over behaviour I consider innaproprate and its cost me a chance at gear a few times but if I feel my shell is becoming wrong theres no point me trying to make do with something I feel isnt right. I've seen shells piss off other ones and havent liked this behaviour one bit.

Apologies also this forum seems to be unavailable to me at certain times of the day so I havent been able to check threads here very often. Sorry if my words or views annoy anyone, I've been told before my sense of humor is rather dry.

 

[cesaria-midg]

I'm with Div on this one.

I'll be honest. I've not settled on this server, I'm not enjoying XI anywhere near as much as I used to and I'm hitting the point where I'm considering cancelling my IDs.

Main reason I haven't settled here (despite making as much effort as time allows, I post on here, I'm in the BST shell 99% of the time - I don't have time to join exp parties at the moment and, being honest, I can't face them) is the constant attempts to bash the Midgard savages into line. We're not savages, we have our asshats and numpties the same as everyone - but we do come from a server with a very long history of doing things a different way to you (yes we've had our more lively incidents in the past). Yet right from the very moment the server close (I refuse to call it a merge because it wasn't) was announced - we had people on the Midgard forums warning us of the dire consequences of what would happen if we didn't adhere to YOUR rules, warns of public shunning or whatever you want to call it - it started the whole thing with a very very sour taste in the mouth, and the way things have panned out - yes, it's gone on feeling that way.

Because of that, I still don't feel like "yes this is my server"... it's "this server" to me (I got pulled up on LS for that the other day but it's how it still feels, and bear in mind I'm on a very much Quetz-based shell, not a Midgard-originated one), because I still get the impression that we're viewed with suspicion, like semi-house trained puppies and that Quetz is ready, slipper in hand to wallop us if we step out of line - it's a horrible feeling, to be told that how you've operated for, well I've been playing since EU release, so probably pushing toward the 6 year mark now is some kind of moral abhoration, that you're wrong, savages... the calendar, like it or not, was not a hard-coded part of this game - it wasn't something that SE put in, it was a system that you guys developed to run things for yourselves (Quetz always seems to be some kind of "British" server in your obsession with queuing and organizing everything - it's like the British obsession with queuing gone mad... and I say that as a Brit). Whatever you may think of it, it's not part of XI and posting on a calendar doesn't automatically force the rest of the world into line with you - and because SE decided to mangle two worlds with very different ways of doing things together... you've got about 1/3 of the server who don't think like that.

Add in the fact that, not only is all the compromise and co-operation being demanded to come from one direction (I've seen no concessions at all coming from the Quetz side of things) - the delightful witch hunt and parading anyone and everyone from Midgard as gimps worthy of derision... the whole thing is one disgusting mess. It's like being stuck in the first day at a new school constantly - and it's horrible.

Fact is, whatever you think of us all, unfortunately we got shoved together - you guys tend to openly resent us, believe me, I didn't want to come here either... and it's blooming well horrible.

The guys who jacked your zone - they'd do it whatever... there is that sort of person in the world - you can lay the blame at Midgard... they'd do it if they were on flipping Atomos - it's nothing personal - but this silly anti-Midgard witch-hunting is getting ridiculous. I'm sick of feeling like I've got to apologize for the way that we did things - because it wasn't wrong, it was as equally within the bounds of the game mechanics as you guys (I'm deliberately not opening the botting can of worms here - talking purely about the original point which was dynamis) - so why are we constantly being stamped on for the fact we were randomly put when we made our accounts 5-6-7 years ago, on a place that did things differently (and was easier to spell)?

I barely even do dynamis btw, and when I do it's on EU times so none of the calendar crap directly affects me - I'm just sick of the Midgard-bashing. Mind you, with the rate the people I know are quitting the game over this and the 80 cap - there won't be many of us left soon.

 

[Myrrh]

Okay, now this just may be me but maybe the reason so many people are sick of Miggers is because THEY DO NOTHING BUT FUCKING BITCH ABOUT THEIR DEAD FUCKING SERVER AND CLAIM THEY'RE BETTER.

 

[Tristam Green]

Sorry I meant to parrell Stalinism there and got my old dictators mixed up. ^^

And I've disputed with many linkshell leaders over behaviour I consider innaproprate and its cost me a chance at gear a few times but if I feel my shell is becoming wrong theres no point me trying to make do with something I feel isnt right. I've seen shells piss off other ones and havent liked this behaviour one bit.

Apologies also this forum seems to be unavailable to me at certain times of the day so I havent been able to check threads here very often. Sorry if my words or views annoy anyone, I've been told before my sense of humor is rather dry.

*parallel, *inappropriate.

more wah wah wah i'm from midgard and you quetzies are lumping us together with botters bullshit

get over it. you guys need to discern who's being bitched out here. it's not people from midgard at large. it's those who do the same shit we've seen for two years now, and then gloat about it.

Okay, now this just may be me but maybe the reason so many people are sick of Miggers is because THEY DO NOTHING BUT FUCKING BITCH ABOUT THEIR DEAD FUCKING SERVER AND CLAIM THEY'RE BETTER.

okay, well maybe one of us is griping about the people from midgard at large.

 

[Kaientai]

Okay, now this just may be me but maybe the reason so many people are sick of Miggers is because THEY DO NOTHING BUT FUCKING BITCH ABOUT THEIR DEAD FUCKING SERVER AND CLAIM THEY'RE BETTER.

Gotta love generalizations...

My biggest gripe was that my gf had to change her character's name. Everything else was fine. I was hoping that meeting new people would help me have fun in the game again. So far, it has.

get over it.

This.

I have told people time and time again this on both sides. To the Quetzy and Midgarders who were bitching. We had no say in the matter. What's done is done. It's over and we can't complain about it. Pay your $13 a month or cancel. Our first week here, I've had members of my Dynamis shell repeatedly whine and moan about the merge and even had people say they were thinking about quitting.

My response? "Quit."

 

[Myrrh]

Yeah, I worded that poorly. Meant to say that a large number bitch. Not all bitch.

 

[Tristam Green]

Yeah, I worded that poorly. Meant to say that a large number bitch. Not all bitch.

me being who i am knew what you meant. sadly, your brand of humor might not have been picked up on by the new residents of quetz.

 

[Kaientai]

Yeah, I worded that poorly. Meant to say that a large number bitch. Not all bitch.

It happens. I knew there was going to be massive amounts of complaints from BOTH sides of the fence.

After the update, I purposely sat in Whitegate to see how long it would take for the moaning to start. Didn't take long at all. I just sat there and read some of the comments spewing. Most were the typical "Whaaa! How dare SE do this to us Midgarers!" and "Whaaa! How dare SE do this to us Quetzys!"

It got old very quickly.

 

[Tristam Green]

I remember Myrrh telling me about how he got GM jailed for saying "lol, Miggers" in Whitegate. He said it was met with many laughs and thunderous applause.

Aht Urhgan Whitegate - You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious.

 

[Samaire]

You'll sure drop the word douchebag a lot. Is that one of the few words that you'll know? Just wondering.

I also don't understand why Tristam cares so much about what goes on in a game he no longer plays. Could some one please explain this to me? I mean, I can understand that you may still have buddies from your playing days. But if you no longer play, how can your opinion be worth anything?

p.s. Going out on a limb here and guess Tristam is a dude. If you have a va-jay-jay, no hard feelings.

 

[jyakotsu]

You'll sure drop the word douchebag a lot. Is that one of the few words that you'll know? Just wondering.

I also don't understand why Tristam cares so much about what goes on in a game he no longer plays. Could some one please explain this to me? I mean, I can understand that you may still have buddies from your playing days. But if you no longer play, how can your opinion be worth anything?

p.s. Going out on a limb here and guess Tristam is a dude. If you have a va-jay-jay, no hard feelings.

Just because a person's toon is suspended or deleted doesn't mean they can't go on from time to time. I quit, yet I log in on my toon from time to time because my good friend keeps it up. I care about this merge because I see it as both sides gripe about their "set" of problems.

Honestly, those from midgard if the merge was different and we had to lose our set of unwritten "rules" we'd be equally as mad. Probably just as many of us would have threatened to "quit." Especially if we had to change our names, etc etc. But the thing is it didn't happen that way, and it won't change. You all merged onto Quetz, and we were willing to compromise... not so much as Slipper in hand but more so like rulebook written in pencil with a willingness to change.

All of you bitch and moan when we get mad about a sudden rug pulled out from under us, because you all don't adhere to our rules... HOWEVER, not one of you "midgard" server mergers has given us a recommendation to change our guidelines or rules, so why would we change a thing from our rules then?

 

[Divinius]

HOWEVER, not one of you "midgard" server mergers has given us a recommendation to change our guidelines or rules, so why would we change a thing from our rules then?

You want recommendations? I've given you plenty in this thread already. Keep the schedule, try to politely inform people of it, and politely try to get people to adhere to it. Feel free to inform others of the shells that refuse to use it, but don't be an enormous asshat to everyone that doesn't immediately want to bail on their longstanding linkshell because their leaders aren't willing to conform to your very convenient, but still very arbitrary, standards.

As much as many of you here don't want to hear this, this is no longer "your server". I think that's the attitude on here that bugs me the most. Like it or not, it is now "our server", and regardless of the way the merge happened, the Midgard people on this server have exactly as much right to do things the way they want to as the Quetz natives do.

Yes, with regards to the Dynamis schedule specifically, I personally happen to like the Quetz system MUCH better than the Midgard system. From the response you've gotten since the merge, I'd say that most Midgard Dynamis leaders agree with you, and that's great. But they won't all, and you are going to need to accept that, and allow the ones that don't a little bit of understanding while you gently try to convince them of why your system is better.

"Blackballing" all the members of a rogue shell (in an attempt to get them to bail on their shell, or risk getting kicked by trying to convince their leaders to use the system) is playing dirty. You are using threat tactics, and that's NOT the way to approach your cause. As I've said countless times now, shit like that makes you no better than the shells you are trying to get to conform, and just gives those shells another excuse to not play fair with you.

Continue to post which shells refuse to use the system. Post the leaders names if you have them (the ones making the decisions). If a rogue shell tries to take a zone you had scheduled, perhaps offer to "random" them for the zone (one of the diplomatic ways it was handled on Midgard). Suggest, politely, that the schedule system really does work, and to consider giving it a shot. I can't promise it will work, and I know there are shells that are of the mindset that they are the only ones that matter. But going into a situation with guns blazing cursing people out is certainly not going to make them want to listen to you.