Failure Rates

[Kirayamato]

in my previous post, a guy had 11 defective. I hope his 12th xbox 360 is alright.

my question is this, does xbox 360 elite have any of this problem?
cause if idolm@ster and trusty bell doesn't port end of the year, i may get one Asian console lol.
Quality and reliability of console really concerns me a lot.

 

[Firestreak]

in my previous post, a guy had 11 defective. I hope his 12th xbox 360 is alright.

my question is this, does xbox 360 elite have any of this problem?
cause if idolm@ster and trusty bell doesn't port end of the year, i may get one Asian console lol.
Quality and reliability of console really concerns me a lot.

Yes the elite has this problem too. By the end of the year though the redesign they're doing now should be out on the market so early Christmas sales will probably clear out the defective ones from retailers.

 

[Kirayamato]

one can only hope hehe

 

[Raesvelg]

Percentage-wise, you're likely correct. However, 10% of 10 million is much larger than 10% of 5 million.

The amount of 360's bricked because of idiot users IS relevant, because the figure being cited is the total number of 360's that were returned claiming to be defective. Any amount of idiot usage or lying is inflating those figures, making it seem worse than it really is. The point of the figure is the 360 is an unstable system that was rushed to production; but any bricked systems that were NOT caused by manufacturing/design error should not be included in those figures, because those aren't indicative of a flawed/rushed design.

I'm trying to figure out exactly what you're saying there...

When determining the inherent reliability of the system, sales numbers and rationale for failure are irrelevant. All that matters is what percentage of consoles are returned for being defective. The percentage determines your chance of being sold a defective product, after all.

The "idiot defense" doesn't work, all console owners are of average levels of stupidity, therefor if it applies to one system then it applies to all systems, and is therefor irrelevant to a reliability comparison. So unless you're willing to assert that 360 owners are inherently more stupid and/or shifty, you'll have to concede this point I'm afraid. The 360 may well be more vulnerable to rough treatment, that in itself can be considered a design flaw and must be taken into account.

 

[Bajaratt]

I'm trying to figure out exactly what you're saying there...

When determining the inherent reliability of the system, sales numbers and rationale for failure are irrelevant. All that matters is what percentage of consoles are returned for being defective. The percentage determines your chance of being sold a defective product, after all.

The "idiot defense" doesn't work, all console owners are of average levels of stupidity, therefor if it applies to one system then it applies to all systems, and is therefor irrelevant to a reliability comparison. So unless you're willing to assert that 360 owners are inherently more stupid and/or shifty, you'll have to concede this point I'm afraid. The 360 may well be more vulnerable to rough treatment, that in itself can be considered a design flaw and must be taken into account.

What idiots do to their consoles have absolutely nothing to do with the failure rate of said console. I could take a bat to my Wii and claim that it was defective and unreliable by your logic. I could let it sit up against the wall covered with dust, and that wouldn't be anything defective with my unit, only that I'd be an idiot for putting it in a position that would almost guarantee to overheat and brick my unit.

Failure rates indicate how many of the product is faulty coming off the line, how likely you are to get a lemon. Any units that fail because of the stupid actions of their owners, and not because of a defect, don't apply to failure rate. If I buy a 360 with a 30% failure rate, I should expect there's a 30% chance for it to fail through no fault of my own; but instead there's a lower chance because that figure has been inflated by idiot users. That discrepancy could make the difference between a sale or not; I might not be willing to risk my money on a 30% failure rate, but maybe I would on a 15-20% failure rate.

The only way user fault would apply is if you only look to the number of returned consoles, period. Warranty's don't cover shit like dropping your camera, or splashing water/coke all over the vents of your TV, because there was nothing wrong with the product until you got stupid with it.

If idiots are the reason Xbox 360s fail, why is PS3's failure rate under 1% by this very same test? Are 360 owners inherently dumber than PS3 owners?

Well, we'd get a more accurate gauge of the PS3's failure rate if it would actually sell. Hard to fail when they're sitting on store shelves, never having been plugged in. Nintendo's stuff is nigh indestructible, though.

Apparently no one bothered to read the line about how assuming a fixed % of users are idiots, there's more idiots with 360's since they've sold more. Also, given that some people bought a PS3 for use only as a blu-ray player, they'd be much more likely to have a proper setup and keep it in a well ventilated area; plus dropping that much on a console, you're going to take care of it. 360 owners are mostly college kids who wanted the next halo, and those dorm rooms aren't exactly the best place to prolong the lifespan of any device.

 

[Raesvelg]

Well, we'd get a more accurate gauge of the PS3's failure rate if it would actually sell. Hard to fail when they're sitting on store shelves, never having been plugged in. Nintendo's stuff is nigh indestructible, though.

Hah, funny. There's enough PS3's sold to have a more than sufficient userbase to draw statistics from. Keep the console fanboyism to a minimum when you're debating with me prz, I don't have any of them, nor do I intend to acquire any of them for some time.

Apparently no one bothered to read the line about how assuming a fixed % of users are idiots, there's more idiots with 360's since they've sold more. Also, given that some people bought a PS3 for use only as a blu-ray player, they'd be much more likely to have a proper setup and keep it in a well ventilated area; plus dropping that much on a console, you're going to take care of it. 360 owners are mostly college kids who wanted the next halo, and those dorm rooms aren't exactly the best place to prolong the lifespan of any device.

/twitch

More people = more idiots = same percentage of idiots. I really don't know how to make that any clearer. Saying "Well, we sold more, so we'll have more returns due to stupid people" is valid, yes. But that's irrelevant. The percentage is what matters, and that's a constant, unless you're willing to assert that 360 users are stupider than, for example, Wii users. Which I find extremely hard to believe.

As for the PS3, it's possible that the somewhat higher price point ($100 or less between comparable units, which less significant than you'd think at the $400+ price range from a consumer standpoint) and Blu-Ray capability has lead to a slightly different class of owner... but I doubt it. People that are truly gung-ho about their Audio/Video experience generally prefer to buy purpose-built machines rather than fiddle with a "kid's toy". So you'd the same sort of casual users, who also happen to play their spiffy new Blu-Ray movies that they probably paid too much for on their PS3.

 

[Firestreak]

Baja like usual you don't grasp even the basic concept of statistics. I've said it before and said it again, read a fucking textbook and learn or stop talking like you know what you're talking about.

These are representative samples we're dealing with. this is how percentages are determined. It doesn't matter how many 360s are out there and how many PS3s are out there, it matters how many PS3s were broken of PS3s sold versus 360s broken versus 360s sold. You're arguing as if I'm directly comparing broken 360s to broken PS3s to see which has more. We're talking percentages here. So if we can expect 10% of 360s to be broken because the owners are inherently stupid, why aren't there's 10% broken PS3s?

I invite you to use the rule of Occam's Razor, and we shall say for this situation, the simplest explanation is probably the right one.

We're got...

1) Massive disinformation campaign by Sony fans to discredit the 360, infiltrating various retail outlets to publish fake information about the 360 failure rate. Microsoft unwilling to respond with the real numbers even though they're not damning for no reason whatsoever.

2) A genetic code on the 16th chromosome, that both makes human beings apt towards purchasing Microsoft brand gaming products and simultaneously disposes them to use their gaming hardware as a football. These allelle has been dormant in the human DNA since before the split between human and apes 6 million years ago, only to surface now that Bill Gates has activated it by putting a specific codine into the vitamin water bottles.

3) A defect in the 360 hardware because they rushed it to market to gain market share over Sony.

 

[Bajaratt]

Hah, funny. There's enough PS3's sold to have a more than sufficient userbase to draw statistics from. Keep the console fanboyism to a minimum when you're debating with me prz, I don't have any of them, nor do I intend to acquire any of them for some time.

Wasn't a response to you, I just forgot to type Firestreak's name.

/twitch

More people = more idiots = same percentage of idiots. I really don't know how to make that any clearer. Saying "Well, we sold more, so we'll have more returns due to stupid people" is valid, yes. But that's irrelevant. The percentage is what matters, and that's a constant, unless you're willing to assert that 360 users are stupider than, for example, Wii users. Which I find extremely hard to believe.

Ok, 360 users are more stupid than Wii users. The people who bought a 360 right at or within a few months of launch were probably 90% or better college guys who wanted the next halo. Those groups are typically horrible on their consoles, they shove it in a corner or do other stupid stuff that can damage a console. When you return it to the store, if they even bother to ask you "was there anything wrong with it," even a moron would say "no, it just died on me" instead of "yeah, I'm a dumbass who didn't let it get any air so it overheated." Usually they don't even ask, they just take it and give you a new one.

As for the PS3, it's possible that the somewhat higher price point ($100 or less between comparable units, which less significant than you'd think at the $400+ price range from a consumer standpoint) and Blu-Ray capability has lead to a slightly different class of owner... but I doubt it. People that are truly gung-ho about their Audio/Video experience generally prefer to buy purpose-built machines rather than fiddle with a "kid's toy". So you'd the same sort of casual users, who also happen to play their spiffy new Blu-Ray movies that they probably paid too much for on their PS3.

I personally have gotten 2 people to buy a PS3 over a stand-alone blue-ray player. You play the same movies, PS3 is cheaper and is being updated over time; buying a stand-alone player is a dumb idea when compared to that. Even still, people are going to want to take care of their $600 unit; especially when they don't have 2 years to replace it whenever they want.

PS3 is being marketed as more than a gaming console, so people would associate more care with it since it also doubles as a new type of DVD player. I don't see many DVD player returns, because people take care of them; or at least they don't try to break them. The same is happening with the PS3, it's not just a "game console" to some people, so it gets more respect and care. There's also fewer drunken college players around it, so that's an immediate boost to it's life span.

I'd like to get one thing straight, before someone completely misinterprets that as well. I'm sure the 360 has a huge failure rate, it was rushed to launch and nothing was done to fix it for a long time. But the failure rate is an inflated figure due to people being idiots or alarmists like theosyris said.

 

[Bajaratt]

Baja like usual you don't grasp even the basic concept of statistics. I've said it before and said it again, read a fucking textbook and learn or stop talking like you know what you're talking about.

These are representative samples we're dealing with. this is how percentages are determined. It doesn't matter how many 360s are out there and how many PS3s are out there, it matters how many PS3s were broken of PS3s sold versus 360s broken versus 360s sold. You're arguing as if I'm directly comparing broken 360s to broken PS3s to see which has more. We're talking percentages here. So if we can expect 10% of 360s to be broken because the owners are inherently stupid, why aren't there's 10% broken PS3s?

I invite you to use the rule of Occam's Razor, and we shall say for this situation, the simplest explanation is probably the right one.

We're got...

1) Massive disinformation campaign by Sony fans to discredit the 360, infiltrating various retail outlets to publish fake information about the 360 failure rate. Microsoft unwilling to respond with the real numbers even though they're not damning for no reason whatsoever.

2) A genetic code on the 16th chromosome, that both makes human beings apt towards purchasing Microsoft brand gaming products and simultaneously disposes them to use their gaming hardware as a football. These allelle has been dormant in the human DNA since before the split between human and apes 6 million years ago, only to surface now that Bill Gates has activated it by putting a specific codine into the vitamin water bottles.

3) A defect in the 360 hardware because they rushed it to market to gain market share over Sony.

And again you're posting crap that was never disputed nor did anyone disagree with; but you're acting like it's a major revelation that only you were smart enough to grasp. No shit the 360 has a huge failure rate, because it was rushed to production; no shit the PS3's would be less because it wasn't rushed. Do you have anything that isn't blatantly obvious and was never in question to say, or are you just going to continue to repeat facts over and over like it makes you sound smart? Hell, at this rate, you could change your title to captain obvious.

360 has a more accurate sampling because a larger portion of the total units produced has been sold and "tested" than with the PS3. Apparently you skipped the class on why you use samples rather than just poll the entire population. Smaller sample sizes mean more margin for error; that's also assuming the poll is not biased in any way which is difficult to do. 360's sample being what, 80% of the total units, vs PS3's 50%; obviously the 360 would be more accurate. The only reason you use a sample is because it's faster, cheaper and easier; you lose accuracy at the cost of simplicity.

 

[Firestreak]

And again you're posting crap that was never disputed nor did anyone disagree with; but you're acting like it's a major revelation that only you were smart enough to grasp. No shit the 360 has a huge failure rate, because it was rushed to production; no shit the PS3's would be less because it wasn't rushed. Do you have anything that isn't blatantly obvious and was never in question to say, or are you just going to continue to repeat facts over and over like it makes you sound smart? Hell, at this rate, you could change your title to captain obvious.

360 has a more accurate sampling because a larger portion of the total units produced has been sold and "tested" than with the PS3. Apparently you skipped the class on why you use samples rather than just poll the entire population. Smaller sample sizes mean more margin for error; that's also assuming the poll is not biased in any way which is difficult to do. 360's sample being what, 80% of the total units, vs PS3's 50%; obviously the 360 would be more accurate. The only reason you use a sample is because it's faster, cheaper and easier; you lose accuracy at the cost of simplicity.

There are two factors that are important here. There's Margin of Error and Confidence level. Let's say for example I want a 95% confidence level. With 1,000 units sampled I have a 3% margin of error. Which is to say I can make the statement...

"I am 95% percent sure that this number is correct within 3%."

If you have a population of 2,000 units, you get a 2% margin of error with 95% confidence ratio.

We're dealing with 100,000+ units of both PS3 and Xbox 360. Sure maybe the Xbox 360 is .01% more accurate than PS3 is.

Look how it goes...

50 units - 14% margin of error.
100 units - 10% margin of error.
500 units - 4% margin of error.
1000 units - 3% margin of error.
2,000 units - 2% margin of error.

Now we're dealing in the hundreds of thousands. As I've said, you don't know statistics. You've obviously never taken a class in it(at any reputable learning institution), so stop talking like you know what you're talking about. I'm not saying I'm smart for knowing these things. I'm saying you're dumb for pretending like you do.

 

[TheOsyris]

What are you even arguing about here;; None of you work for any of these companies. None have exact facts. Online polls and anything else you can pull out means nothing. When the companies start to give percentages then we can argue eh? There are just too many random factors included in these online serveys and whatnot, its like basing all you know on wikipedia man. Dont do it lol.

 

[Elemmire]

Something I find even more entertaining than the topic of this post is that people would still rather chance a 360 than buy a PS3.

(I have a bunch of these laying around so let's keep it up)

And most have the IQ around the same amount or lower as an 8th grader. People aren't smart and I'd say many are swayed by the Sony hating fad that's come around (and others are just die hard fanboys, hell, every company has retarded fanboys).

I want a 360 if things are fixed (Chasym says they have newer harder.. so it's tempting ). I'm gonna wait a bit (unless I can get a deal like I did for my PS3 :3)

 

[Taurothar]

And most have the IQ around the same amount or lower as an 8th grader. People aren't smart and I'd say many are swayed by the Sony hating fad that's come around (and others are just die hard fanboys, hell, every company has retarded fanboys).

I want a 360 if things are fixed (Chasym says they have newer harder.. so it's tempting ). I'm gonna wait a bit (unless I can get a deal like I did for my PS3 :3)

IQ is a static number, so grade level shouldn't change it much if ever. If your IQ is low, there's very little you can do to change it other than training your brain to solve puzzles faster. The average American is at about a 90 to 100, Einstein was about a 155 for example (though they recently changed the scale so I'm not sure on Ein's number anymore). Oh and I believe you need above a 140 to get into the genius societies.

I'd like to do a large sample testing of 360 owners vs ps3 owners vs wii owners and see who has the actual larger IQ. I'm thinking the higher of the three would be the wii because of its inherent problem solving nature, which teaches the mind a lot more than the games available for the other two. For example, games like Tetris were proven by some to increase your brain's spacial relationship ability, which is a large part of IQ testing.

Just pointing out the irony of using a term of intelligence wrongly.

 

[Elemmire]

hehe, true. But I still think saying what strid said isn't really great to say.. that doesn't mean the system's better at all (hardware wise.. game-wise is a different story and far more opinion).

It really hasn't hurt (microsoft that is). that there's been a huge fad of sony bashing for the last year or two.

 

[Anglis]

I dont hate either. Sony has been good for along time. Im just gonna wait for a price drop,then i'll get one. Till then ill just enjoy my 360.

 

[Skaw]

Why isn't there more PS3s "failing?"

Give it time, it hasn't been out nearly as long, nor does your average PS3 get as much use as your average 360.

 

[Kirayamato]

that won't happen skaw i feel
this is what i have learn from Managing Organisational Innovation
Japanese and U.S. culture are different in terms of developing new products.
Japanese then to spend more time and money on research and development. Their initial cost of developing is high but their cost at the end is low
U.S. companies then to spend less in the early stages (R & D) and therefore will have incur a lot of cost at the end in terms of defects and lawsuits.
I got the graph from a research article representing this. If only I have a scanner -_-

 

[Raesvelg]

Alternately, it's possible that Sony decided to make sure the console could stand up to reasonable treatment before releasing it.

It IS possible, you realize, that the 360 is not the direct manifestation of god upon this earth. In fact, rushing a powerful but poorly designed/assembled piece of hardware to market would be almost exactly what MS did before, would it not? As opposed to Sony, who prefers to take a more measured pace with difficult-to-program-for and usually overhyped machines.

 

[Elemmire]

that won't happen skaw i feel
this is what i have learn from Managing Organisational Innovation
Japanese and U.S. culture are different in terms of developing new products.
Japanese then to spend more time and money on research and development. Their initial cost of developing is high but their cost at the end is low
U.S. companies then to spend less in the early stages (R & D) and therefore will have incur a lot of cost at the end in terms of defects and lawsuits.
I got the graph from a research article representing this. If only I have a scanner -_-

also, if a company has a failing in Japan, the standard is generally that no one (or few people) person is to be blamed, everyone takes part in the blame. Where as America it's "FIND THE SCAPEGOAT!" hehe... at least, that's what sociology claimed when I took it But Skaw is right in that the PS3 hasn't been out as long. I do agree we should give it more time.. but I think there were more 360 failures in the same time than PS3 failures... though I don't have any official stats. Wonder if some non-bias site has the stats.. hmm doubtful.

 

[Skaw]

I have no doubt the PS3 has faired better in defects than the 360. For $600, it better.

I'm just saying that 1 in 3 failing due to factory defects is bullshit. The problem was polling retailers who offer their own warranty. Those things cover just about everything, except breaking it at the store infront of the employees.