Fffffuuucccccc****** Mmmmmeeeee BANNED -.-

[Pompidou]

It doesn't matter what you or I, or anyone but SE thinks in terms of Windower vs Flee Tool in severity. Shoplifting isn't as serious as murder in the real world, but SE's terms of service aren't based in the same logic. SE could make Flee Tool legal and Windower illegal if it wanted to, or legalize them both, or whatever. Player oppinions aren't what Firestreak is arguing.

SE says 3rd party tools are illegal.
SE doesn't say Windower is less illegal than Flee Tool.

Firestreak is just pointing out the (what should be) obvious.

It doesn't matter if Windower is harmless. Firestreak's argument would be just as correct if not only was Windower harmless, but made you breakfast in the mornings and cured the common cold. SE says it's wrong, so it doesn't matter if it's "really" wrong. There's only one oppinion that matters, and it's certainly not ours.

 

[neophytal]

What the hell are ya talkin about?

im talking about how once the conversation exposes you and your precious "OH" that you try to shift conversations away from it...

like just now i brought that up and you go off on a tangent calling me a cheater because i use windower.

lol

 

[Firestreak]

I follow the natural course of the conversation but I answer the questions asked me, unlike you who apparently can't refute my argument.

 

[neophytal]

I follow the natural course of the conversation but I answer the questions asked me, unlike you who apparently can't refute my argument.

all you are doing is diverting the conversation away from what we were talking about. but thats cool..

ill answer any question you want, but its all in an attempt to get away from what was being talked about.

 

[Eulore]

Yes, but that is like saying a shoplifter is as bad as a murderer.. I mean shit, they both broke the law!?!

Just have to call you out on your hypocrisy. Aren't you the one who said someone who lied about their gender online to get into your e-panties was the same as a child molestor? I mean shit, they both lied and convinced someone else to do something!?!

 

[Firestreak]

By the way, I'd like to propose a simple logical argument.and without arguing sideways attempt to actually dispute this.

Here goes...

Windower, according to numerous, repeated statements of Squaresoft, is a 3rd party program and against their rules.

Flee tools, is a third party program and is actually traceable and people are commonly banned for its use.

Neither are legal, only one is enforcable because only one is detectable.

Neophytal, uses windower, just click on his link in his sig to windower screenshots of himself.

Neophytal violated the rules of FFXI everytime he uses windower.

No where in the ToS is it against the rules to party or be in the same linkshell as people who use third party programs.(In real life there are laws in terms of aiding criminals, this is not the case in FFXI.

Flee hacking is defined as more severe than windower by the QCDN community, never said so by Squaresoft.

Neophytal is a cheater.

Firestreak follows all the rules of FFXI.

Fleehack is other programs considered by QCDN to be more severe than windower are commonly used on other servers, including the most successful and respected(arguably) LS on FFXI period.

By all technical purposes, FFXI would have no ability to give me a warning or temp ban over being affiliated with flee hackers. While they have expressed numerous times windower is against the ToS.

>> Therefore, on a technical level, Neophytal is more guilty in squaresoft's eyes than I am, being that I never have since installing FFXI the day of NA release, broken the terms of service, and Neophytal does every time he logs on.

>>Then on a level of community standards, what community are you talking about? Can you really speak for the community, define what they find acceptable or not acceptable? Have you done any basic research on the matter of what online gamers find acceptable? Is that research verifiable? What was your sample size? Did you include a cross section of all FFXI players? Is your research sample merely your close group of friends you gab with about the issue? Do you consider QCDN representative of the community in general? Do you consider QCDN representative of all FFXI servers on a broader scale? Do you know how those people view friends and shellmates of those who fleehack or merely the ones who do it themself?

Etc, etc, etc. It's always funny when one person comes to the conclusion they speak for everyone. Or if you're going to say you don't have to speak for everyone and have the right to your own views, then what merit does your personal bias have towards me as an invidual as I'm suppose to evaluate myself? If it's only your own personal views, how can you say your views > squaresoft's ToS? But then my views < your views?

Then answer this, we're talking about the morality of being in the same linkshell as others who break the ToS.

And really, I'm not diverting shit. I answered everything you guys threw at me, from potential victims of fleetooling to personal gain by me. The fact that other people are interested in some of my peripheral arguments about the justification behind other people who do cheat is merely a sidebar, I've long since given my argument that as yet to be directly refuted, simply ignored.

 

[Firestreak]

Just to throw in, can't even say you represent QCDN's overall values, because of the non-anonymous nature of this board. We all know tons of people buy gil but nobody on this board comes out and says "I buy gil." For similar reasons I'd argue people don't come out and say "I don't care about flee toolers."

All we really know is that I'd estimate 40 or so people have expressed their distate of flee tools compared to 4000 registered members.

 

[Damita]

There are some flaws in the crafting system, but the brunt of the problems with crafting is due to the players. The markets are over saturated with crafters; with plenty of players who have increased prices to keep others away and those who lowered prices because they didn't care about not pissing away all of their money just grinding. SE didn't help by introducing cheaper alternatives to some of the big money making synths, but the playerbase was a problem long before SE started introducing those items.

Eh I know what you're saying Baja, but Square completely destroyed the bonecrafting world... Weskits are cheap as hell now... S.Harness has a multitude of alternatives that are either as good or better. (I guess I could try to HQ a weskit...)

And... They gave us the Hydra recipe which isn't bad, but it's only usable by SAM/DRGs, and SAM has Hauby... DRGs... Well... Um... That's not a big market. _._

 

[cohibuu]

there was only 5 people in OH who were sent the cheats who were trusted enough to have such, all of which dont even play anymore and only 1 played long enough to get banned for it. Firestreak was not one of them. when i played, we never tried to make it obvious to the LS so no one could ever really tell, sure claim bot worked, but it wasnt 100% with the new claim system but it did have /wait options so you just had to play with it and hope to get lucky.

 

[neophytal]

Then answer this, we're talking about the morality of being in the same linkshell as others who break the ToS.

And really, I'm not diverting shit. I answered everything you guys threw at me, from potential victims of fleetooling to personal gain by me. The fact that other people are interested in some of my peripheral arguments about the justification behind other people who do cheat is merely a sidebar, I've long since given my argument that as yet to be directly refuted, simply ignored.

you're a hypocrit dude. hahaha you call me a cheater because i use windower.. but yet you say:

I couldn't care less if people want to fishbot to be honest.

and you also say it was fine for people to fleehack in your LS because you "didnt see it because you were a back line mage".. and then later said "not many people did it" haha.. man get your stories straight.

so you dont care about that, but you then make a huge argument about someone using windower. you need to re-think your style of thinking.

anyways, on me, ill openly admit i use windower, idc. alot of people wont. you could use windower all you want and "say" you dont, but theres not a way for me to prove that. even if you play on PS2, and use your pc, it might as well be windower, its the same damn thing really.

there was only 5 people in OH who were sent the cheats who were trusted enough to have such, all of which dont even play anymore and only 1 played long enough to get banned for it. Firestreak was not one of them. when i played, we never tried to make it obvious to the LS so no one could ever really tell, sure claim bot worked, but it wasnt 100% with the new claim system but it did have /wait options so you just had to play with it and hope to get lucky.

I was in OH.
Not everyone cheated.
Hell, not even 1/4 of the LS did.
There were really only about 6 or 7 people who did.
Even then, it wasn't, "zomg guys look at me flee across altepa lawl"

so then its 5 people.. and once person says 6 or 7... so really where does it stop? its probably more than that even, who knows. point has already been proven i guess on that--

 

[Firestreak]

you're a hypocrit dude. hahaha you call me a cheater because i use windower.. but yet you say:



and you also say it was fine for people to fleehack in your LS because you "didnt see it because you were a back line mage".. and then later said "not many people did it" haha.. man get your stories straight.

so you dont care about that, but you then make a huge argument about someone using windower. you need to re-think your style of thinking.

anyways, on me, ill openly admit i use windower, idc. alot of people wont. you could use windower all you want and "say" you dont, but theres not a way for me to prove that. even if you play on PS2, and use your pc, it might as well be windower, its the same damn thing really.





so then its 5 people.. and once person says 6 or 7... so really where does it stop? its probably more than that even, who knows. point has already been proven i guess on that--

My points over and over seem to be going over your head.

Obviously, I don't think there's anything wrong with windower. The point I'm trying to make is that you've yet to create an argument as for the immoral nature of flee tools that makes it differ from windower as far as actually harming people. All people have cited is that with flee tools it has the POTENTIAL to harm other players. By that same note, windower has the POTENTIAL to harm other players because without windower you can't use any of the other programs.

If you want to go based on a moral argument, you've got that to try and refute.

If you want to go on a "legal" argument, windower is no different than flee tools in Square's eyes.

If you want to go on a community standards, you'll need some actual evidence.

So if you want to try and identify a hypocrite I suggest you look more internally. I'm not the one dispensing judgement. I never said I look down on people for using windower. You're the one so against 3rd party programs that even being in the same LS as people who use them is so bad in your eyes, but you use a program that's no different in the eyes of FFXI.

Now to clarify, before you tell me to "get my story straight" you might want to take a peek on my stance since the very beginning. First off I never denied the use of 3rd party programs. What I've always said is what the truth was, which is that I didn't pay attention to it. I didn't investigate it and it wasn't blatent enough that it could be obvious, but if I'd watched kiters intently there's a good chance I may have uncovered it.

That's not to say I didn't suspect it. I can hypothesize someone is flee tooling based on a sudden change in flow of the battle, watching who has hate and paying attention to HP levels and understanding what's going on. Doesn't mean I went out and followed kiters around to see if they did in fact flee tool. As stated it wasn't blatent and the only evidence I can see where it was blatent(that BC) I wasn't even there.

Now maybe if it was you, you would say "I think someone is flee tooling!" and then you would come out and look. Maybe you'd ask around. Maybe you'd try and find out what's going on. However that's you, a person who has a problem with flee tooling. The fact that I didn't see it blatently is a formality, if I had I wouldn't have cared(in some cases). I'd care if I knew about claim bots,(which I didn't) and I'd care if people were flee tooling on mobs that other LS were rivals to us(I figure if that was the case the other LS would have GM called).

-Something that needs to be mentioned. There are more than 2 speeds. There are speeds less than normal running, to W leg speed, to marzurka speed, to ranges between marzurka to flee, to hyperspeed. I didn't observe as Firestreak in game anyone going flee speed when they should have been going regular speed. It was more like, if I saw someone I thought was going a little fast they were probably going 25% faster instead of the 12% they should have. Not particulary obvious to a resting mage but you might notice the kiter suddenly taking less hits.

Now it's not a conflicting story - it's a two facts that happen to coincide. It wasn't blatent and I wasn't in a position that it would be shoved in my face - and I don't happen to particular care.

And yes, not many people did it. It turns out the magic number was 5. I only suspected 3, 2 of whom got permabanned. Then most of our events involved no kiting, so there's no reason to even look there.

But nice job steering the conversation your way. I've answered your points over and over again, you're not going to address my argument are you?

 

[Stouter]

Next time you start the windower, type, without quotes, the "`" or "~" key, then type in "load distance".

You now have an advantage over people who don't use windower. I think this was on by defualt at one point.

I would get "unable to load plugin" because I deleted my plugins folder a year or so ago and have done so with each windower update.

Obviously, I don't think there's anything wrong with windower. The point I'm trying to make is that you've yet to create an argument as for the immoral nature of flee tools that makes it differ from windower as far as actually harming people. All people have cited is that with flee tools it has the POTENTIAL to harm other players. By that same note, windower has the POTENTIAL to harm other players because without windower you can't use any of the other programs.

I'm pretty sure you can use several of the other programs without windower. But your arguement is like saying driving 50 miles over the speed limit is like owning an gun, because both have the potential to harm someone.

 

[Daveman]

so then its 5 people.. and once person says 6 or 7... so really where does it stop? its probably more than that even, who knows. point has already been proven i guess on that--

No offense to tec, but he was only in OH for like a short while near the end, past the point I think fleetool was passed around like candy on the internet (didn't tymon or tyrath (forgot which one >_>) post a link to a site with downloads on qcdn once?)

In oh it was only a handful of people that used it openly, even in closed battles or in remote areas. I'm sure others used it in complete secrecy, but I'd bet most linkshells have members who use such tools, even in secrecy from the leaders. Cohibu would be one to give a hard number on who got the file directly from OH. Anyways, I think all but like 2 people who openly flee'd around in bcnms, and stuff got banned in the end anyways, the others quit the game eventually too because it "got boring", so justice served I guess.

Really the way SE cracked down, people who fleetooled or pos'd or whatever, either all got banned, or stopped using the tools and got bored of the game and quit anyways. I've heard people complain about how slow chocobos were. Hacks ruin the fun of the game once you get addicted and SE cracks down to the point you can't use it or you get banned.

I could imagine if all of the sudden SE banned anyone using windower, most of us are now dependant on it, we'd either use it till we got banned, or stop using it and get "bored" of the game.

 

[Daveman]

I would get "unable to load plugin" because I deleted my plugins folder a year or so ago and have done so with each windower update.

I was replying to windaria(?) =P I'd bet the plugin folder is left there for her, and most people

 

[neophytal]

My points over and over seem to be going over your head.

Obviously, I don't think there's anything wrong with windower. The point I'm trying to make is that you've yet to create an argument as for the immoral nature of flee tools that makes it differ from windower as far as actually harming people. All people have cited is that with flee tools it has the POTENTIAL to harm other players. By that same note, windower has the POTENTIAL to harm other players because without windower you can't use any of the other programs.

so let me get this straight, you want to make an argument of flee tools (that definitely change the way the game works and is played-- no matter how you look at it, you gain/save time because you get from point A to point B faster, even if you arent using it in a fight) and use that against windower which POTENTIALLY (potentially is very loosely) could harm someone?? you are so stretching here.. how am i going to harm someone by running windower, and running across a zone to a NM, whereas someone flee hacking, can run across the zone in half the time, to maybe a NM spawn, or to do something in half the amount of time.

If you want to go based on a moral argument, you've got that to try and refute.

If you want to go on a "legal" argument, windower is no different than flee tools in Square's eyes.

If you want to go on a community standards, you'll need some actual evidence.

So if you want to try and identify a hypocrite I suggest you look more internally.

how am i being a hypocrite? ive said everything and stood by it, not tried to make philosophical arguments and turn the direction the other way.

I'm not the one dispensing judgement. I never said I look down on people for using windower. You're the one so against 3rd party programs that even being in the same LS as people who use them is so bad in your eyes, but you use a program that's no different in the eyes of FFXI.

i was i was against CHEATING. apparently you are not, as you til this day, are still trying to defend your little flee hacking LS. lol thats fine.

if you dont consider using the windower wrong, then dont try to turn the argument into a "well if you think flee hacking is wrong, you have to think windower is wrong" conversation. you are just trying to find something to pin on me.

its like stouter said:

But your arguement is like saying driving 50 miles over the speed limit is like owning an gun, because both have the potential to harm someone.

Now to clarify, before you tell me to "get my story straight" you might want to take a peek on my stance since the very beginning. First off I never denied the use of 3rd party programs. What I've always said is what the truth was, which is that I didn't pay attention to it. I didn't investigate it and it wasn't blatent enough that it could be obvious, but if I'd watched kiters intently there's a good chance I may have uncovered it.

and as i said, to "not pay attention" to your main paladin flee hacking or other members is such a blanket excuse, but you can run with that if you like...

That's not to say I didn't suspect it. I can hypothesize someone is flee tooling based on a sudden change in flow of the battle, watching who has hate and paying attention to HP levels and understanding what's going on. Doesn't mean I went out and followed kiters around to see if they did in fact flee tool. As stated it wasn't blatent and the only evidence I can see where it was blatent(that BC) I wasn't even there.

so you suspected it.. oooh guess you werent one of the "elite few members" (few being funny because its at least 6 from former members) to know! again, cut the excuses as to why you "Supposedly didnt know".. lol its obvious.

Now maybe if it was you, you would say "I think someone is flee tooling!" and then you would come out and look. Maybe you'd ask around. Maybe you'd try and find out what's going on. However that's you, a person who has a problem with flee tooling. The fact that I didn't see it blatently is a formality, if I had I wouldn't have cared(in some cases). I'd care if I knew about claim bots,(which I didn't) and I'd care if people were flee tooling on mobs that other LS were rivals to us(I figure if that was the case the other LS would have GM called).

uh.. yeah.. i'd notice, because i actually watch my screen when i play.. i guess you play with your eyes shut to not see someone doing it.

-Something that needs to be mentioned. There are more than 2 speeds. There are speeds less than normal running, to W leg speed, to marzurka speed, to ranges between marzurka to flee, to hyperspeed. I didn't observe as Firestreak in game anyone going flee speed when they should have been going regular speed. It was more like, if I saw someone I thought was going a little fast they were probably going 25% faster instead of the 12% they should have. Not particulary obvious to a resting mage but you might notice the kiter suddenly taking less hits.

really? i didnt know there were several speeds... im sorry, i forgot that i had herald gaiters.. 12%.. or ninja boots.. 25% at night.. there are actually slower speeds from dusk wear, if you want to get technical. anyways, we all saw how prophecy flew around, it wasnt just a small increase.. lol

Now it's not a conflicting story - it's a two facts that happen to coincide. It wasn't blatent and I wasn't in a position that it would be shoved in my face - and I don't happen to particular care.

of course you didnt care, you were beating things in less time with less people.. thus the cheating part of the conversation, where your LS, and you, who participated in the LS, benefitted, as stated 41281482 times in this thread.

And yes, not many people did it. It turns out the magic number was 5. I only suspected 3, 2 of whom got permabanned. Then most of our events involved no kiting, so there's no reason to even look there.

of course not everyone did it-- but it doesnt mean it didnt help everyone.

But nice job steering the conversation your way. I've answered your points over and over again, you're not going to address my argument are you?

so i think ive addressed them-- but im sure you will come up with some more philosophical arguments instead of just talking about the raw facts of the situation.

 

[Firestreak]

I would get "unable to load plugin" because I deleted my plugins folder a year or so ago and have done so with each windower update. I'm pretty sure you can use several of the other programs without windower. But your arguement is like saying driving 50 miles over the speed limit is like owning an gun, because both have the potential to harm someone.

When you drive 50 MPH over the speed limit you can potentially hurt someone by accident and irreversably. When you flee hack you are in control of what you're doing. You can potentially hurt someone by for example fleeing to a mob and claim or fleeing to control a mob that you are otherwise going to wipe to and another LS would be able to claim. You have control over these, meaning you don't have to do them if you don't want to. If you do by accident somehow, you can decide to give up claim to another person. So in that sense I fail to link the two together. It's more like saying that windower is like owning and gun and flee tools is like owning bullets. Alone either are useless but in a country where it's illegal to own a gun at all the argument of "I didn't own any bullets" wouldn't really fly.

Basically saying... if I don't trust you not to use flee tools in a negative matter towards harming players, why do I trust you to use windower at all? Squaresoft doesn't, as players we try and set internal lines for judgement. My line would be, when you fire the bullet at someone then you're being immoral, not owning the bullets. If you want to take an absolute stance, don't even own a gun.

 

[Stouter]

Any time you are using a fleetool you are having an adverse effect on other people, even if you don't use it to outclaim someone. That's less time you spend running, meaning more time you can spend farming/whatever. You've just bought yourself more time by going faster. It's also less of a need for silent oils/prism powders/reraise crap because nothing is going to catch you so why bother with them?

 

[Firestreak]

so let me get this straight, you want to make an argument of flee tools (that definitely change the way the game works and is played-- no matter how you look at it, you gain/save time because you get from point A to point B faster, even if you arent using it in a fight) and use that against windower which POTENTIALLY (potentially is very loosely) could harm someone?? you are so stretching here.. how am i going to harm someone by running windower, and running across a zone to a NM, whereas someone flee hacking, can run across the zone in half the time, to maybe a NM spawn, or to do something in half the amount of time.

Potential is potential, doing is doing. If someone harms someone with flee tools, they harmed them with flee tools and windower combined. You're drawing the line at "when it's flee tools", I'm drawing the line at "when it harms someone". If you're not against windower because people with windower don't have to harm someone, then why does someone with fleetools have to harm someone?

It's not the program it's what you do with it. If you want to say, it's the potential, then I'll say, what about windower? No windower, no potential. Don't like third party programs just because they're cheating? Don't like flee tools even if they're not used maliciously? Then don't use windower, it's cheating.

how am i being a hypocrite? ive said everything and stood by it, not tried to make philosophical arguments and turn the direction the other way.

You're hypocritical in the sense that you're against fleetools based on its POTENTIAL to do damage yet fail to recognize that the potential is from windower. Just as people can use windower and not hurt anyone as a result, when someone uses flee tools to win a mission BC no one is hurt.

i was i was against CHEATING. apparently you are not, as you til this day, are still trying to defend your little flee hacking LS. lol thats fine.

I'm against cheating to the point that I don't cheat myself. Anything else that anyone else does is between them and Square. I never would suggest to someone that they cheat, it's their own choice not mine. Also I'll throw out not great talking down to me with language, as shown previously on this thread I can pick up on implied statements fairly easily and argue against the implications.

if you dont consider using the windower wrong, then dont try to turn the argument into a "well if you think flee hacking is wrong, you have to think windower is wrong" conversation. you are just trying to find something to pin on me.

I'm not trying to find anything to pin on you. I'm trying to explain my position. You aren't the one under attack, I am. I simply said they should lay off GP and found myself in the midst of a personal attack. The fact that this obviously upsets you so much is probably a reflection that you know on some level I'm right that when you accept breaking the rules of the game and cheating to be able to use windower that you're making the case of, "This isn't immoral because I'm not hurting anyone."

so you suspected it.. oooh guess you werent one of the "elite few members" (few being funny because its at least 6 from former members) to know! again, cut the excuses as to why you "Supposedly didnt know".. lol its obvious.

What's obvious? You'll have to be a little more precise here, you can't define my stance broadly.

uh.. yeah.. i'd notice, because i actually watch my screen when i play.. i guess you play with your eyes shut to not see someone doing it.

Have you ever played BLM at an event? More precisely do you know what as a BLM my eyes are going to be focused on?

really? i didnt know there were several speeds... im sorry, i forgot that i had herald gaiters.. 12%.. or ninja boots.. 25% at night.. there are actually slower speeds from dusk wear, if you want to get technical. anyways, we all saw how prophecy flew around, it wasnt just a small increase.. lol

That's my point. You saw something blatant, doesn't mean it was blatant always. He appearead in the video to be moving at flee speed, doesn't mean he would ever run through an LS full of people half of whom at any time are new members with flee speed.

of course you didnt care, you were beating things in less time with less people.. thus the cheating part of the conversation, where your LS, and you, who participated in the LS, benefitted, as stated 41281482 times in this thread.

I never ended up benefitting because the LS ended up breaking before I got anything I still wanted that could be gotten by what our activities encompassed. You could call that a technicality, but honestly I'd rather have a 7 m.attack earring than the ability to make this argument. I guess you could argue I got more gil than I would have to which I'd say maybe I got a mill payout in that time and who knows how much I'd have made without it.

To which I'd say, big whoop? I have maybe 300 mill in gear what's 1 mill versus having to deal with this bullshit?

so i think ive addressed them-- but im sure you will come up with some more philosophical arguments instead of just talking about the raw facts of the situation.

What are the raw facts we're dealing with? How many players had the programs? What items I recieved? What solid proof was shoved in my face?

You can't even argue against my link of windower and flee tools, all you can do is declare I'm stretching. Well maybe it is a stretch, but it's nonetheless true. If you want to define me as a cheater you'll have to redefine the meaning of cheating. If you want to define yourself as not a cheater, you'll have to redefine the meaning of cheating. If you want to explain that all use of flee tools ever is wrong and using windower is perfectly acceptable you'll have to make some sort of arguments there other than naming instances in which flee tools CAN be immoral.

 

[Firestreak]

Any time you are using a fleetool you are having an adverse effect on other people, even if you don't use it to outclaim someone. That's less time you spend running, meaning more time you can spend farming/whatever. You've just bought yourself more time by going faster. It's also less of a need for silent oils/prism powders/reraise crap because nothing is going to catch you so why bother with them?

And when someone uses windower they save time by not having to log out to check the internet. When someone uses windower to repeatedly tab back and forth between the client and a map they save oils and powders by taking less wrong turns. When someone uses windower to tab back and forth between a map to find coffers they have an advantage over a player who isn't using windower and doesn't have the map in front of their face.

-You can say, someone can print out maps, or research where they're going beforehand, or buy a laptop, or use a 2nd computer, or use ps2. That's true. But none of those are against the rules of FFXI, windower is.

 

[Firestreak]

By the way, windower is NOT needed to play. I played all the way from the day that FF was released for PC to about 2 months after FFXI was released on PS2 and I got by without windower. I did this back when hitting the windows button accidentally made you lose full screen mode and resulted in you being kicked out of FF and having to log on again. But that's just me, someone who prefers inconvieniance to cheating.