Fffffuuucccccc****** Mmmmmeeeee BANNED -.-

[Eulore]

By the way, windower is NOT needed to play. I played all the way from the day that FF was released for PC to about 2 months after FFXI was released on PS2 and I got by without windower. I did this back when hitting the windows button accidentally made you lose full screen mode and resulted in you being kicked out of FF and having to log on again. But that's just me, someone who prefers inconvieniance to cheating.

So you stuck with an LS that had cheaters in it... And I'm assuming it would be inconvienant to leave said LS (joining new LS making new friends re-earning trust and points, etc. doesn't seem convienant to me)... I think I almost see where you're going with this. Wait, nope.

Oh and your GTA arguement. It's inconvienant to play through it legit. You need hax to have fun right? Wait a minute...

 

[Firestreak]

So you stuck with an LS that had cheaters in it... And I'm assuming it would be inconvienant to leave said LS (joining new LS making new friends re-earning trust and points, etc. doesn't seem convienant to me)... I think I almost see where you're going with this. Wait, nope.

Oh and your GTA arguement. It's inconvienant to play through it legit. You need hax to have fun right? Wait a minute...

Well in terms of joining a new LS it would be rather pointless. All I still wanted was gear from sea and there no one who actively farmed sea. There were LSes that declared intentions to farm sea, but not that were actually active. Although I had considered trying for JDA after fulfilling obligations with OH.(There was a list in my head of members that were active when I got my Osode and Haidates that still needed gear, and I was determined not to leave til they got their gear.)

 

[Stouter]

And when someone uses windower they save time by not having to log out to check the internet. When someone uses windower to repeatedly tab back and forth between the client and a map they save oils and powders by taking less wrong turns. When someone uses windower to tab back and forth between a map to find coffers they have an advantage over a player who isn't using windower and doesn't have the map in front of their face.

It's the same effect as having a laptop, without the inconvenience of having to tab around. Using flee hacks/pos hack/voke bots does not give you the same effect as something you can do outside the game that gives you no unfair advantage vs other players.

 

[Firestreak]

It's the same effect as having a laptop, without the inconvenience of having to tab around. Using flee hacks/pos hack/voke bots does not give you the same effect as something you can do outside the game that gives you no unfair advantage vs other players.

So you are trying to define the line at "when the effect cannot be reproduced by legal actions"?

 

[Stouter]

I define it as an unfair advantage. Knowing your party member's TP, alliance MP, etc from windower is a cheat in my eyes.

 

[Firestreak]

Be a little more specific please, "unfair" is a little too vague. I'd like a technical definition where we can weigh different programs against the definition.

 

[Bajaratt]

Could possibly define it as: something that is not normally allowed while you are playing the game that gives you a clear, direct advantage over another player or group; especially when it breaks or modifies the game mechanics for the benefit of the player using the program. Being privy to information that the game routinely denies free access too(ex: TP), or having abilities that are not inherently included in the framework of the game(ex: fleehacking).

As such, "running faster" or being able to claim something while you are not present at your computer would qualify, but the plain windower doesn't provide a direct advantage like that. You could print out maps to every zone, and print out all of the quest/bcnm/mission info as well and that provides the same features as running the plain windower; just without having to log off all the time or spend a few hundred dollars printing everything.

I'm only going to compare the plain windower with zero plugins, since they give an advantage over another player; and we're talking about the windowing feature vs fleehacking.

 

[Firestreak]

Could possibly define it as: something that is not normally allowed while you are playing the game that gives you a clear, direct advantage over another player or group; especially when it breaks or modifies the game mechanics for the benefit of the player using the program. Being privy to information that the game routinely denies free access too(ex: TP), or having abilities that are not inherently included in the framework of the game(ex: fleehacking).

As such, "running faster" or being able to claim something while you are not present at your computer would qualify, but the plain windower doesn't provide a direct advantage like that. You could print out maps to every zone, and print out all of the quest/bcnm/mission info as well and that provides the same features as running the plain windower; just without having to log off all the time or spend a few hundred dollars printing everything.

I'm only going to compare the plain windower with zero plugins, since they give an advantage over another player; and we're talking about the windowing feature vs fleehacking.

So to simpifly, to be cheating it has to simultaneously:

Break game mechanics.
Give a player an advantage over another player that they couldn't gain another legal way?

To which I'd argue any form of botting doesn't meet that criteria, in that botting doesn't break the mechanics and the player could replicate the actions legally, by being there.

 

[Skaw]

To which I'd argue any form of botting doesn't meet that criteria, in that botting doesn't break the mechanics and the player could replicate the actions legally, by being there.

And isn't that POLs stance on botting? As long as you're there and not afk, they don't give a shit.

 

[Firestreak]

And isn't that POLs stance on botting? As long as you're there and not afk, they don't give a shit.

Source?

Oh yeah. TP PArty.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a377/neophytal/blogspot/august2006/nm-vrtra3-act3.jpg

No wonder Neophytal can watch the kiters in motion instead of me. Unlike me he doesn't have to watch TP reports. To shame.

 

[Bajaratt]

I don't recall a legal way to automatically have a claiming macro or JA fire without any user input. I'm not quite sure on specifics, but wouldn't botting apply in that you don't have to sit there and mash your buttons during the window to claim, you can just sit back and let the bot do all the work?

 

[Firestreak]

I don't recall a legal way to automatically have a claiming macro or JA fire without any user input. I'm not quite sure on specifics, but wouldn't botting apply in that you don't have to sit there and mash your buttons during the window to claim, you can just sit back and let the bot do all the work?

The point is that the action that the bots do is replicated by legal means, just like accessing the internet is replicatable by legal means. Neither ARE legal, but neither aren't replicatable.

 

[Firestreak]

And we'll emphasize the point both of you agreed that TP Party crosses your line, which as I've shown Neophytal uses. (har har)

 

[neophytal]

Potential is potential, doing is doing. If someone harms someone with flee tools, they harmed them with flee tools and windower combined. You're drawing the line at "when it's flee tools", I'm drawing the line at "when it harms someone". If you're not against windower because people with windower don't have to harm someone, then why does someone with fleetools have to harm someone?

again, you are making it sounds like flee tools cause no harm doing it.. when in fact it does. stop denying the fact that it saves time, and that in fact, is cheating no matter WHAT you are using it for. are you going to make me say this a 3rd time? lol

It's not the program it's what you do with it. If you want to say, it's the potential, then I'll say, what about windower? No windower, no potential. Don't like third party programs just because they're cheating? Don't like flee tools even if they're not used maliciously? Then don't use windower, it's cheating.

as stated above (i guess you are going to make me say it a 3rd time) ANY USE IS MALICIOUS. why? because it saves TIME. you get places FASTER. doesn't take a genius to figure this out, or do you need a 4th time? lol

You're hypocritical in the sense that you're against fleetools based on its POTENTIAL to do damage yet fail to recognize that the potential is from windower. Just as people can use windower and not hurt anyone as a result, when someone uses flee tools to win a mission BC no one is hurt.

lol way to justify fleetooling in your head again...

I'm against cheating to the point that I don't cheat myself. Anything else that anyone else does is between them and Square. I never would suggest to someone that they cheat, it's their own choice not mine. Also I'll throw out not great talking down to me with language, as shown previously on this thread I can pick up on implied statements fairly easily and argue against the implications.

you're against cheating, but you were in a LS that you said admittedly used fleetooling:

our actual events and of that anything illegal was used I'd wager 20-30% of the time.

allright! lol

I'm not trying to find anything to pin on you. I'm trying to explain my position. You aren't the one under attack, I am. I simply said they should lay off GP and found myself in the midst of a personal attack. The fact that this obviously upsets you so much is probably a reflection that you know on some level I'm right that when you accept breaking the rules of the game and cheating to be able to use windower that you're making the case of, "This isn't immoral because I'm not hurting anyone."

it doesnt upset me, i just find it amusing i have to re-state facts and re-state the same things over to someone who tries make themselves appear intellectual and bright.

What's obvious? You'll have to be a little more precise here, you can't define my stance broadly.

if you have to ask what is obvious maybe you should read the points people have made at you and uzor on the last few pages. or you could just ignore them... at least he gave up the fight.

Have you ever played BLM at an event? More precisely do you know what as a BLM my eyes are going to be focused on?

no. but ive played RDM. and guess what? RDM in BLM party stands WITH THE BLM! wow, what a concept. great way to "fight your battle"

That's my point. You saw something blatant, doesn't mean it was blatant always. He appearead in the video to be moving at flee speed, doesn't mean he would ever run through an LS full of people half of whom at any time are new members with flee speed.

yeah, i saw something blatent that i didn't even have to be in your shell to see. get real, SEA FIGHTS arent kited in that big of a range that you couldnt "notice"... lol

I never ended up benefitting because the LS ended up breaking before I got anything I still wanted that could be gotten by what our activities encompassed. You could call that a technicality, but honestly I'd rather have a 7 m.attack earring than the ability to make this argument. I guess you could argue I got more gil than I would have to which I'd say maybe I got a mill payout in that time and who knows how much I'd have made without it.

blah blah blah, i didnt benefit. as stated before (see, i have to keep repeating, because you ignore the other posts), as courtney said, im sure you NEVER got any gil or got ANY items during the times cheating. riiiight. lol

To which I'd say, big whoop? I have maybe 300 mill in gear what's 1 mill versus having to deal with this bullshit?

What are the raw facts we're dealing with? How many players had the programs? What items I recieved? What solid proof was shoved in my face?

you still trying to stick up for the fleetooling. what are you trying to accomplish? lol. the proof was in several OH members admitting how bad it was, and you and uzor trying to push it aside innocently.

You can't even argue against my link of windower and flee tools, all you can do is declare I'm stretching. Well maybe it is a stretch, but it's nonetheless true. If you want to define me as a cheater you'll have to redefine the meaning of cheating. If you want to define yourself as not a cheater, you'll have to redefine the meaning of cheating. If you want to explain that all use of flee tools ever is wrong and using windower is perfectly acceptable you'll have to make some sort of arguments there other than naming instances in which flee tools CAN be immoral.

your use of saying "flee tools are ok in certain situations' is LOL worthy. hardcore. im glad that you approve. haha... this argument alone makes you look rather... hmm.. guilty

i never defined you directly as a cheater (as you tried to say i was), just a member/leader of a LS full of cheaters. if you feel you are guilty by assocation, then so be it.

however, as you had a pearlsack, i do think that it is/was poor judgement to not take care of situations like that... but i guess as you want to claim, you "had no idea of what was going on".

 

[Stouter]

The point is that the action that the bots do is replicated by legal means, just like accessing the internet is replicatable by legal means. Neither ARE legal, but neither aren't replicatable.

Since when you run around at 3x flee speed through "legal" means? Or fish while afk? Or claim Fafnir while afk? Or warp halfway across the zone?

 

[neophytal]

Source?

Oh yeah. TP PArty.

http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a377/neophytal/blogspot/august2006/nm-vrtra3-act3.jpg

No wonder Neophytal can watch the kiters in motion instead of me. Unlike me he doesn't have to watch TP reports. To shame.

oh yeah.. cause its so hard to multitask. and watch whats going on, while glancing down for tp reports. "hello filters".

Since when you run around at 3x flee speed through "legal" means? Or fish while afk? Or claim Fafnir while afk? Or warp halfway across the zone?

cuz he seems to think that if no one "sees it", that its okay. lol.. just as "flee hacking is ok if its not done maliciously" as he said in his other post.

 

[Firestreak]

again, you are making it sounds like flee tools cause no harm doing it.. when in fact it does. stop denying the fact that it saves time, and that in fact, is cheating no matter WHAT you are using it for. are you going to make me say this a 3rd time? lol

We're going in a circular motion because you don't recognize that I understand your point.

Your case is that it causes harm, "because it's cheating."

My point has been that windower alone "is cheating," so you'll need to be more specific as to how it causes harm.

as stated above (i guess you are going to make me say it a 3rd time) ANY USE IS MALICIOUS. why? because it saves TIME. you get places FASTER. doesn't take a genius to figure this out, or do you need a 4th time? lol

Stating its function not explaining how it automatically is malicious. Hell even windower saves time. Saves you the time of having to log off and on to use your PC.

you're against cheating, but you were in a LS that you said admittedly used fleetooling:

I'm also against abortion, but then if one of my friends got an abortion I wouldn't lecture them about why I think it's horrible.

it doesnt upset me, i just find it amusing i have to re-state facts and re-state the same things over to someone who tries make themselves appear intellectual and bright.

I understand your stance. Your stance is:

Fleetool is cheating. Any cheating is wrong. Therefore anyone who uses fleetools is bad.

But you've made the case already that windower is not bad, because it doesn't hurt anyone.

if you have to ask what is obvious maybe you should read the points people have made at you and uzor on the last few pages. or you could just ignore them... at least he gave up the fight.

I've read every post since I've entered this thread. In fact Uzor didn't even give up the fight, he said he had to leave town for a few days and if this was still going on would state his case again.

no. but ive played RDM. and guess what? RDM in BLM party stands WITH THE BLM! wow, what a concept. great way to "fight your battle"

It's not where you stand, it's what your attention is focused on. Some of us don't use TPParty. Those people have to watch the chat log intently for TP reports, if the DDs hit or miss(to estimate TP), mob moves that I might want to stop and then the skillchain.

yeah, i saw something blatent that i didn't even have to be in your shell to see. get real, SEA FIGHTS arent kited in that big of a range that you couldnt "notice"... lol

Our jailer fights mostly involved the use of a wall and me not being able to see a thing on the other side of it.

blah blah blah, i didnt benefit. as stated before (see, i have to keep repeating, because you ignore the other posts), as courtney said, im sure you NEVER got any gil or got ANY items during the times cheating. riiiight. lol

You're lecturing me higher up on this post about not reading, but you aren't even reading the whole post you're responding to. I already said I got some gil, about a mill. Buddy, that is NOTHING to me.

you still trying to stick up for the fleetooling. what are you trying to accomplish? lol. the proof was in several OH members admitting how bad it was, and you and uzor trying to push it aside innocently.

All I see is some disagreement onto how many players got the program. The number was 5, I thought 3. I still have no idea who the other 2 are.*

your use of saying "flee tools are ok in certain situations' is LOL worthy. hardcore. im glad that you approve. haha... this argument alone makes you look rather... hmm.. guilty

Guilty of what?

i never defined you directly as a cheater (as you tried to say i was), just a member/leader of a LS full of cheaters. if you feel you are guilty by assocation, then so be it.

Is that a fact?
>>>

* tolerating people cheating and not repremanding them is just as bad as doing it yourself. you say it doesnt benefit you directly, how about saved time? easier fight? that definitely benefits you directly. what if you finish a fight early, go out, and kill a NM or HNM that was up that you wouldnt have gotten to before hand? its the same as "flee hacking doesnt hurt anyone if no one is around".. well what if you beat the next poor joeblow that was going to find the NM, but you flee hacked around the zone and saw it first?

<<<
Hmmm...

however, as you had a pearlsack, i do think that it is/was poor judgement to not take care of situations like that... but i guess as you want to claim, you "had no idea of what was going on".

Never said I "had no idea of what was going on." Said it wasn't blatant. It also wasn't my job to police the members. I had one job and only one job. I ran sky points system. If you want to talk about pearlsacks, about half the members had pearl sacks at one point.

*Ok that's not entirely honest. I am fairly sure of the 4th.

 

[Firestreak]

Since when you run around at 3x flee speed through "legal" means? Or fish while afk? Or claim Fafnir while afk? Or warp halfway across the zone?

If you want to take Bajarett's definitiion then flee tools is across the line and POS hack is across the line. But then bots are not because their ability is replicatable.

I can't claim fafnir or fish while afk, but I can claim fafnir or fish. Bots do nothing that the player can't replicate. Sure you can't fish while you're afk, but you can't surf the internet without buying another computer without windower.

 

[Eulore]

afaik bots don't misclaim like players can otherwise you'd just see everyone who bots voking/flashing/stunning/chi blasting Darters if they were up.

 

[Stouter]

Except windower doesn't give you an advantage over someone with a 2nd PC or someone on PS2/XBOX with a PC next to them.