Gil Sellers

[pakomen]

I wish I could just buy that freakin moldavite earring. 0/21 for that bish. I'd pay a million gil. Hell, I'd give you $20 out of my pocket to get it for me.

 

[pakomen]

I take that back, I won't give a million gil.

I can just see all of you raising your hands to come out as TH2 to get it for me in exchange for 1M gil. lol.

 

[Rorschach]

alot of these posts were about "greedy people are evil!!"

its not so much about greed.. its just.. how much is your time worth to you? you spend X amount of time getting ITEM.. and of course you want to sell ITEM for the most amount of money you can get.. thats not greed..

Not to sound like a dick but isnt that essentially the deffintion of greed?

 

[pakomen]

More like common sense. If you sell your car, you try to get the bluebook value, do you not?

 

[The Druw]

Yes you do. However, when you start pricing over blue book value, it could be considered greedy. LIke say, if your house is worth 5 million, but you decide to sell it for 8 million.

 

[Topler]

Prices will always increase in value, weither we want them to or not its all about supply and demand. You dont go out seeing 'Gilsellers' or hardcore farmers nickle and diming over shit. They go for the hard to get item's stuff low on stock and generally great stats in some cases because people just dont have the mean's to aquire these item's themself's.

It's not about greed so much as demand. If you spend alot of time to get a valueable item and you see value is slowly increasing by like 50-100k are you not likely to follow the trend if supply is low? or are you gonna undercut even tho your the only one selling and take a lose of say 300k when you could be makin that extra 3-400k profit for following the trend that is set on the ah.

As item's become more available prices begin to drop again because the supply is once again to high for the demand.

Basically thats all there really is too it gilsellers and gilbuyer's have very little to do with the economy problem's. As for item's with high base value's take a look at what goes into that item specially if its a crafted item. In alot of cases the crafter is losing out on the deal unless he can hq a few to make it worth his while.

There is really no problem's with the market that i can see it may seem very bad at lower level's but once you get up to the higher level's were you can try to obtain these item's it may just open you up to why the values are set so high.

 

[Thnikkaman]

Though you guys pose a very strong argument (Sculli, etc), I still don't think that buying gil is right. And you said that SE hasn't banned gilbuyers... they're trying to. If they catch you buying gil, you're outta there. But that's not the point, really. The point is, you see SOME low level guys who work for hours on end to get a couple thousand gil and get the piece of armor that they really want. Then you see other low level guys who get really lazy, buy $20 worth of gil, and get unbelievably uber equipment. Then they think themselves better than the guys who actually spend time working for it. Also, I've noticed that guys who just level, level, level (speed-levelers) do a shitty job. And if you never have to farm or do anything that gives you money, you actually suck at the game. Some people can still do a decent job, but mostly that's only because of HQ+X gear. I still stick with the point that if you buy gil using real life currency, you think too much of the game, and shouldn't play it. It's one thing to pay your $12.95 or whatever, but that's to play it. When you start trading your rreal life currency for fictional currency, however, that's just stupid and lazy and stuff.

I dunno. You guys might buy gil out the wazoo, but you'll never see someone like me who actually wants to work for his gear. Heck, I want Noble's Tunic (10mil), but I'm not gonna buy $200 worth of gil. No, sorry. I don't work that way.

 

[Mishaela]

Hate to burst your bubble, but unless you tell the GM that you yourself are a gilbuyer, all they'll say is they'll look into it, and if they do, will say they don't have the evidence to do anything.
...And even if the person ADMITS to buying gil, there's the chance the GMs still won't do anything, because the person's word still "isn't enough evidence".

 

[hellstorm]

hmm just by passed my question so I will ask agian. there use to be a time when gil seller where in there party and a everyone else. It seem though after the update which change mobs to bcnm there seem to be a big shift in the way gil seller get there money but also a big change how people take to gilseller. seem that alot people now in days say if cant beat gilseller join them. It seem that these price rises started because of that update because of the lack of people being able to camp pcc and archer rings and emp pin and damece cloth off that crab in the tree; that people had to find other way to get money. With the gil seller shifting to other mobs and people losing the sweet camping spots that maybe was not as popular before, but now is overcrowed. so because of the over camping the drop rates have droped and prices rise. Also prices rise because it not as easy just to go camp that mob because there are sooo many camper already camping this mob, that what may have been a 1/3 chance of getting claim is now a 1/15 chance. what can you do?

 

[Elysian]

Good god, do you need a 75 blm or 66 bst or 39 whm or 41 drk or 21 thf or.....? lol.

Haha XD No, sorry. T_T Although I have heard of some really good ways to make gil with 2 BLMs at 75, mine is not quite that high yet. T_T_T_T_T (Although I'm hoping it will be soon. XD)

 

[Elysian]

Though you guys pose a very strong argument (Sculli, etc), I still don't think that buying gil is right. And you said that SE hasn't banned gilbuyers... they're trying to. If they catch you buying gil, you're outta there. But that's not the point, really. The point is, you see SOME low level guys who work for hours on end to get a couple thousand gil and get the piece of armor that they really want. Then you see other low level guys who get really lazy, buy $20 worth of gil, and get unbelievably uber equipment. Then they think themselves better than the guys who actually spend time working for it. Also, I've noticed that guys who just level, level, level (speed-levelers) do a shitty job. And if you never have to farm or do anything that gives you money, you actually suck at the game. Some people can still do a decent job, but mostly that's only because of HQ+X gear. I still stick with the point that if you buy gil using real life currency, you think too much of the game, and shouldn't play it. It's one thing to pay your $12.95 or whatever, but that's to play it. When you start trading your rreal life currency for fictional currency, however, that's just stupid and lazy and stuff.

I dunno. You guys might buy gil out the wazoo, but you'll never see someone like me who actually wants to work for his gear. Heck, I want Noble's Tunic (10mil), but I'm not gonna buy $200 worth of gil. No, sorry. I don't work that way.

Random interjection: I don't think anyone was arguing that buying gil was 'right.' (Sculli, forgive me if you were, but that's not how I read your posts.) I think the main point people are trying to make is that 50% of the FFXI base as a whole probably doesn't -care- about whatever moralistic backlash some Average Joe thinks you should feel for purchasing gil, and I'll promise that 95% of the gilbuyers sure as hell don't. Right or wrong becomes irrelavent at that point, because regardless of your viewpoint, it's not going to stop. Do I think it's wrong? Sure. I think that if you want to be someone in a game you should at least have the decency to limit your ascension to power to the means you possess -in that game.- Does the next person who putters over to IGE to buy their monthly million care that I think that? Nope. When they go to bed at night, does it bother them that I'm going to be over here on my PS2 for the next four hours, killing the same mobs over and over and crossing my fingers for a decent night of drops? Nope. When they wake up the next morning with 5,000,000 in their DB, and they go to the AH to buy their long-awaited Pluto's Staff, does it make them think they are any less deserving of that staff than I am? Definitely nope.

While I admire your conviction to prove yourself without doing something that the government has proclaimed illegal and the user base has proclaimed unacceptable, there's not much anyone besides SE can say or do about it that will mean anything to actual people who buy gil. I think that's the point everyone's trying to make.

 

[Sculli]

doing something that the government has proclaimed illegal and the user base has proclaimed unacceptable

I think both of these statements are not quite correct.
First, "the government" is too loose a term. Which government? Regardless of which it is, government decisions only apply to those it governs. In the case of FFXI people for all over the world play the game, and the decision of one government would not be binding to players outside that jurisdiction.

Also, I am not 100% sure that the government (whichever) has actually proclaimed gil sales illegal.

The user base is buying gil.
That's my story and I am sticking to it. A vocal minority of the user base has proclaimed it to be unacceptable.

My point is all this way indeed to demonstrate that those who do buy gil see no problem in doing so, in most cases they feel justified. So yes, no matter what others say, those who buy gil will happily continue to do so. Which means that when comparing a gil buyer to a non-buyer, the non-buyer is the only one who's upset.

 

[Thnikkaman]

I don't think the "government" is involved. However, I'm just saying that buying gil is lazy, illegal, and it ruins the in-game economy. Even if you gilbought, that doesn't mean you should convince younger-level people like Alleria into buying gil. There are reasons people hate gilsellers, but I guess if you don't get those reasons, you're entitled to your own opinion.

 

[Sculli]

However, I'm just saying that buying gil is lazy, illegal, and it ruins the in-game economy.

Lazy
The counterargument is that those who buy gil work hard in the real world. The reason they buy gil is not so muh that they do not want to work for stuff in the game, but that their schedule doesn't allow them to spend extensive amounts of time in the game. Yet, they want to enjoy content, and boring farming doesn't qualify to them as enjoyment.

Regardless, I don't believe it is fair to call those who buy gil lazy, because they are clearly not. I am talking majority here, there is no doubt in my mind that there are spoiled kids who buy millions with their parents cash because they are indeed lazy.

Call them cheaters, which in gaming terms would be much more appropriate, but lazy they are not.


Illegal
Well, illegal is a strong word. Buying gil is a breach of contract, that's for sure. Contract between the player and SE. Which I suppose makes it illegal. However, it's a socially acceptable crime, much like going over the speed limit, many do it, and everyone certainly knows that they are doing something that is illegal, but it's ok.

Interestingly enough, the Flameboard is the most popular forum on QCDN. Yet this thread has been suprisingly quiet. Draw your own conclusions.


ruins the in-game economy
I think it will be very hard to quantify the effect gil sellers have on the economy. I believe it is true that some players are wasteful with gil they bought for real world cash. I would assume that most people who buy gil recognize the value of real world money (because they have to work for it), and are thus mindful when spending it.

Game economy = convinience.
There is no requirement reason for any player to participate in the game economy. The AH is for people who want to convinience of being able to purchase something they need. Take some rare item, it drops like one time in 100 kills. You buying that item at the AH is technically cheating, because you didn't obain it yourself. Sure, you worked for the cash you are spending on it, much the way other people for cash in the real world and spend it on gil.

It's an extreme example, no doubt. It's really just to illustrate a point that you can (read: can, don't have to, but you can), obtain any item yourself, you don't have to buy it.

Anyway, so what does ruined economy mean?
Everything is much more expensive than it used to be! So what, that's true in the real world too, except the real world inflation is fairly slow, and often government controlled. The game economy moves much faster, and as a game ages more and more people arrive at the end game, where they have ample access to ways and means to accumulate wealth.

End game players are hardcore, they will keep playing till SE pulls the plug.
Every minute they play, they generate more currency, either directly or by proxy of getting items. This is a neverending supply, not only that, but a players view on the worth of 1 gil changes over time.

As lowbie 2000gil for a port were out of the question. Once you are int he end game you will pay 4k, even 10k (seen in Windy the other day) for a port, just to get it. 4k are meaningless to you at that point in your character development.

I would like to go back to what Pere said about coins. Clearly there are people who only want to pay 5k for a coin, for whatever their reasons. Others have no problem paying 40k, and would probably not think twice about buying a coin if the seller would ask for 60k.

Gil, or game currency as such, becomes meaningless, because there is nothing you could possibly spend the cash on, other than maybe some coins. When players arrive at that point, that is where some (if not many) start selling game currency to other players, or companies that deal in currency.

I believe that non-professional sellers sell game currency because they too feel that they are entitled to receive a benefit from the time they spend in the game. They clearly accumulate game currency, yet the game doesn't provide them with anything to reward them for their time and skill, there is nothing they can buy anymore that would better their character. It's not everyone's idea of fun to level each job to the max.

So instead of quitting the game, they keep accumulating and selling currency.

Why do I believe that I am right with this estimate?
Because there are far more end-gamers around than there are professional farmers, and the demand for game currency is strong, and I honestly doubt that a few dozen farmers could keep up with the demand of thousands.

 

[pakomen]

Haha XD No, sorry. T_T Although I have heard of some really good ways to make gil with 2 BLMs at 75, mine is not quite that high yet. T_T_T_T_T (Although I'm hoping it will be soon. XD)

Shoot me a PM with more info plz. lol.

 

[Thnikkaman]

Lazy
The counterargument is that those who buy gil work hard in the real world... ...Call them cheaters, which in gaming terms would be much more appropriate, but lazy they are not....

Illegal
Well, illegal is a strong word. Buying gil is a breach of contract, that's for sure... ...Contract between the player and SE....

ruins the in-game economy
...Game economy = convinience...

[Edit: Fixed that quote for ya. -Sculli]

Yeah. You could say that people aren't lazy. But really, you can make like $20 in like three hours' work, and that's minimum wage (atleast in Canada). In FFXI, making 1,000,000g takes many hours, nay days sometimes. In turn, you're working harder in-game to produce 1mil than you are in RL to produce 1mil(gil). And you're definately right about them being cheaters.

It is illegal. They (SE) have said it numerous times already since gilselling has started. They call it "against the law" and "illegal". Selling someone else's thing (in this case gil) is basically fraud.

It ruins the game economy by giving people gil, and thus making people pay ridiculously high prices for things (like Leaping Boots, PCC, etc). This makes the price stay higher, and eventually go even higher than that. Which makes people who actually spend time working for their gil unable to buy the item unless they work their asses for it anyway.

 

[Braydon]

Yeah. You could say that people aren't lazy. But really, you can make like $20 in like three hours' work, and that's minimum wage (atleast in Canada). In FFXI, making 1,000,000g takes many hours, nay days sometimes. In turn, you're working harder in-game to produce 1mil than you are in RL to produce 1mil(gil). And you're definately right about them being cheaters.

It is illegal. They (SE) have said it numerous times already since gilselling has started. They call it "against the law" and "illegal". Selling someone else's thing (in this case gil) is basically fraud.

It ruins the game economy by giving people gil, and thus making people pay ridiculously high prices for things (like Leaping Boots, PCC, etc). This makes the price stay higher, and eventually go even higher than that. Which makes people who actually spend time working for their gil unable to buy the item unless they work their asses for it anyway.

First off, your right, it take longer to make a mil in FFXI than the $20 in rl to buy that gil. That being said, there are people in the world that the 10 hours it takes to make 1 mil is worth way less than $20, like in China ect... Now, while you may feel bad becuase your time is more valuable then theirs, it beats the hell outa working in a Nike plant or other sweatshop they have over there.

Secondly, it's not fraud. Think of it in terms of a lease. You can sell a lease to someone, but you don't own the car. And fraud is when you trick someone, and since both parties know the EULA, there is no fraud.

It doesn't ruin the economy by giving people gil anymore than when you farm. Do Gil sellers have a right to farm and sell items? Yes they do. Now, they may screw things up by jacking the prices, but normal players do that too.

 

[Thnikkaman]

Eh- I'm done bitching about gilsellers. Thanks for patching up my post, Sculli.

 

[UnphaZeD]

I have never found any of the gilsellers to be price jackers. They are perhaps one of the most stabalizing forces in some of the markets they enter. If there were any possitive things to be said about them, that is one that shouldn't be skipped over.

Amement skins used to be 250k now 500k
who controls that market?

*not sure if it's been said cause I never read ahead.
*also that's the only thing I've seen them have a solid hold on from my exp. cause I buy so many of them and I know how much of the A.skin market they have control over... all of it.

 

[UnphaZeD]

It doesn't ruin the economy by giving people Gil anymore than when you farm. Do Gil sellers have a right to farm and sell items? Yes they do. Now, they may screw things up by jacking the prices, but normal players do that too.

Yes it does, it's been said time and time again how it affects the economy negatively.

Imagine this:

Joe blow farms all day long getting the gil to buy a scorp harness, he's got the gil in his hot lil hand, he runs to the AH wanting to purchase and what happens, Unable to buy SH for 4mil gil. Oh noez, what does he do? Does he pay more for it? hell no he doesn't because he worked hard for it, he's going to wait till another one comes up, if everyone waits around that item will be sent back to seller, thus making him put it up again for the Price History, which keeps the items at a steady pace...

2nd /dream:

Joe millionaire starts his char and starts playin, goes to IGE or whatever and buys up 10mil gil to play this game because he doesn't have time to farm cause he's a "casual gamer", he level’s up nin/thf/mnk whatever and runs his ass to the AH to buy a scorpion harness so he can be leet, he bids 5mil, Unable to purchase for 5mil, does he stand around and say "screw that price jacker, I ain't giving him my hard earned gil"? no, he spends the extra 500k 600k shit 1mil more for it because he's got money to blow, and doesn’t care if it costs a little bit extra. Thus, raising the "Normal Price" for an item.

If you do that enough times, and enough people have that "who cares if it costs more" attitude then it will increase the "norm" for that item. This is what you see for all the items now-a-days.

*sure, there are very rich people out there (who made the gil ligitly) who won't mind spending an extra 1mil for a SH but it won't happen so often it will become the norm, someone will just get lucky here and there and get paid more for the item, but the majority of people won't want to fork over the extra gil when they know if they wait a little bit longer the price will drop down.

Think of it like "cheats" in a regular game, if you put in the code to give you 999999999 gold or whatever the currency is, you're going to buy the best shit, the best gear, the best items that gold can buy because it doesn't matter to you, you got the gold to spend, now imagine if another real person was at the shop you are buying from, they'll notice that everyone is buying all the high end shit, and will start to up the price *see supply-and-demand* and people will keep paying the outrageous prices for it.

Sure it's the people that are selling said items that are the "greedy, price jacking" people, but if the item wouldn't sell because Gil wasn't thrown around like it wasn't of value then they would be forced to drop the price.

if that is hard for you to understand think of this: The reason they have hurt the economy so much is because they have lowered the value of 1gil and to Joe blow starting out in this game, gil hasn't been made easier to obtain legally, it's the same as it ever was, but now gil is made easily available to gilbuyers and they've let Joe blow out in the dust.

Wow I didn't think that would turn out so long, but you kind of get my point.
*actually used the spelling and grammer check thinggy as you who know me I've spelled many a word right in this post, go me.*

in conclusion: I think gilbuying/selling is shit, ty and have a nice day