Gods Shell Proposal

[Anaeran]

Not everyone can be jobless, living with parents, and have 8+ hours to play a day. Your golden rule is made up and pushed as fact.... and it's quite an immature silly fact at that. Very elitist if not a hourding type behavior.

There is no where in FF11 that says you are not allowed to have an item because you don't have the time to join a Sky Ls. In fact reread the back of the box. The game boasts friendships and helping out. Go figure.

These rules are made up by the playerbase and pushed onto everyone else. You should be more prudent on what kind of opinion you push onto anyone else.

You're right, FFXI is pretty casual in this regard. I moved on to Vanguard and simply voiced my opinion on this particular issue. I'm sorry that you're not happy with my take on this issue, but it is still my opinion. If you don't care to hear it then don't read it.

If you'd like to delve into my personal life without knowing a single thing about who I am or where I come from, here's a short BIO of what I've got goin on--

- I have a great internship and I attend college full time (Majoring in Criminal Law with a minor in history- sitting on a 3.5 GPA Senior year)
- I have a ton of friends whom I go out with on a regular basis, attend parties etc.
- I have an apartment with 3 other friends of mine and we enjoy having people over-- swing by
- I'm currently single (any classy ladies out there, look me up ) and loving life right now.

I game on the side of all that and play an officer role with an extremely "elitist" (still don't understand how wanting to be the best at something is a negative thing) guild in Pravus Dei. We're not bad people, but we don't like to lose. /shrug

I play when I feel like playing (fairly often), and I play to win. That's how I enjoy MMO. Believe it or not, competition is a founding principle upon which ANY games in this genre are built. Trust me, I know. I've been playing with people who make these games since the genre gained popularity in 1999. I'm currently playing with people who have had a hand in developing Vanguard, EQ1 and EQ2. Content is designed in a manner that promotes competition. It helps these games thrive. I've had countless discussions on this very issue with the very people who are providing you people with enjoyable content in the games you all love and play.

I am an elitist prick though, I'm not arguing with you there. I play MMO's to compete. That's how I roll and you'll get over it I'm sure. If that makes me "immature" you may want to look up the definition of the word before adding it to your regular vocabulary. I'm not an asshole if you took the time to get to know me. If wanting people to earn their status in a game by putting in the time and effort makes me one in your eyes then so be it. I won't lose any sleep over it. I'm sure you won't either.

Its always funny to me that the casual "I want it handed to me on a silver platter" people demand that we cater to their needs yet can't understand that we enjoy playing the game our way too. Wanting to compete and earn items in a game is evil. Its hypocritical even. If you don't like the hardcore atmosphere, fine, we don't like the casual atmosphere. Deal with it? At the end of the day, you play your way and I play mine. That won't change.

Do you really think my dislike for people getting items without putting in the usual time is going to change anything? I understand that I am, in fact, the man but I don't think I've quite reached the level of importance required for all future MMO evolution to revolve around what I think...













...yet! >

 

[Stouter]

There are plenty of people offering gil for black belt items, yet you harrass this guy for an item which is much more common.

This is more comparable to someone getting claim on KB and saying, "Join up with me and kill KB and you can have all the other drops, just let me have the Defending Ring."

 

[Anaeran]

I'd also like to point out that I didn't read any of the Lavi shit so I have no idea whatsoever what the he/she/it is talking about. Please don't lump me into a group with other people that I may or may not appear to be supporting. I am not flaming the OP here. I am my own party with my own opinion on the issue. Thanks

 

[Stouter]

Comparing this to RMT makes no sense. RMT don't get pop items in sky so they can ask other shells to kill the mobs for them, they get the pop items to sell drops. Really, this is kinda anti-RMT because someone's going and getting the pop items themselves rather than just paying cheaters to do it for them and then offering a legit shell a benefit too. Unless you're comparing sky shells to RMT? I'm kinda lost in your argument now. Unless you're just mad that RMT make sky more crowded but morally it's not a problem for someone to use them?

I think you're missing the part that other people find out that shells will do this, and start looking for stones/gems out in batalia, on those RMT mules. RMT selling stuff as fast as they can farm it = more RMT in sky = sky sucks more.

 

[neophytal]

you guys need to be careful about flaming in the endgame forum-- some of you have stepped lines in this thread.. ill leave it alone for now but plz be more careful.

 

[Anaeran]

you guys need to be careful about flaming in the endgame forum-- some of you have stepped lines in this thread.. ill leave it alone for now but plz be more careful.

Not flaming here. This is supposed to be a discussion. Someone took a cheap jab at me, so I attempted to clarify without flaming the individual in return. If its an issue go ahead and delete what I've written. I haven't taken the time to read through QCDN policy on addressing personal attacks by clarifying the viewpoint that drew them.

I'm simply presenting the other side of the argument here. Its an interesting discussion that affects all MMO, not just this one, and believe me I don't have any interest in flaming anyone. I even rated up the OP for bringing this topic to the table (despite clearly disagreeing with his point of view), cause it is interesting to see the different takes on gaming style. Yeah people may sound harsh or critical in defending their view, but in the end they are our views. I respect others' opinions and would hope people would be open to hearing opposing views as well.

It bothers me that so many people sit back on forums like this and wait for 2 or 3 people to weigh in with their opinions and then just jump on the bandwagon so they're on the side that looks like its winning. As soon as someone disagrees with the bandwagon its an all out attack on that individual's character until said person retreats and withdraws his/her opinion. Sometimes the individual is an idiot and deserves it, but a lot of times they aren't. I've seen it here a ton and its pretty lame how fast those people back off of their original opinions.

Many of you played with me in some form or another while I was playing the more casual style game with Ck (i played FFXI for the people and the friendships too believe it or not, though the game was not all that enjoyable for me). I'm not out to get people or put myself above anyone else. I just think that players who put in more time and effort should have some greater sense of accomplishment than someone who pops on here and there and doesn't really grind through that strategy or put in the hours camping x item. Its like saying "i want to be a pro basketball player but I don't have the time to practice...but I should be equal to Lebron James because I'm casual and he's an elitist". It doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe it does to others and that's fine, but I heard their opinions and replied with my own. Does that make me the bad guy here? If it does then so be it. If people aren't allowed to disagree with what "popular posters" present then you may as well close these forums up because a discussion isn't much of a discussion if everyone is forced to agree with each other.

And rating me down because you disagree with me (or in this case just plain don't like me because of past events) isn't going to hurt my feelings people. Grow up.

 

[Mistra]

Simply put, no you don't deserve it.

Who are you to dictate whether or not someone deserves something? Really now, if this guy has his own pop set he can request whatever he wants. I really don't think the guy wanted a huge morality pitch from you on the topic. His post was well put together, he put the options he was willing to go for out there, and is providing his own pop set for the drop. It's a linkshell's discretion now whether or not he'll actually obtain the item. Just let it alone, and stop the argumentative process here. There's a place for that, and it's very reasonably labled the "Flameboard".

 

[Olrox]

The bastard Byakko only Dropped an A head and a D log >.< anyways for those that say he doesn't deserve Haidate.. well he doesn't deserve to be in Iraq either. So how about, when he gets back from a RL hell, you give him your address so he can come take his frustrations out on you all. Seriously its a game, I can't believe 7 pages for this.

 

[neophytal]

i wasn't pointing fingers at any particular person, just saying that the insults/accusations/etc were flying and needed to be more constructive than demeaning.

 

[Morwen]

Ok, fuck it. I'm on page 5 and I'm already frustrated.

Lavi, if you have nothing else to say but 1) Things that make you seem smarter than you really are, while you are only in fact making yourself look like a bitch, 2) Whining about RMT (which is in nearly every post I've read of yours) or 3) Stooping down to seemingly the only insult you know of calling people Hackers; then please shut the hell up and move on.

You have completely derailed a simple request for assistance to a military personell who is overseas with very little time to play into a 'flame-like' topic to make yourself seem 'better' than said 'hackers and thieves'. Please just move the fuck on, you're just making yourself look even worse than you already did.

Lews, I hope you get the help you need.

 

[Dowzer]

This is more comparable to someone getting claim on KB and saying, "Join up with me and kill KB and you can have all the other drops, just let me have the Defending Ring."

Yeah because Byakko drops haidate at a 5% rate.

 

[Sabene]

If you can't put in the time and/or suck at the game, you shouldn't be able to wear the best gear. If your team isn't as talented as another team, your team doesn't deserve to wear the better stuff. That's the hardcore competitive nature of MMO that I was missing in FFXI. Its just more laid back in this regard than any other MMO I've played.

I respect the sacrifices men and women overseas make for this country but I still don't buy even that as an excuse to get the "hook up" in a fake world.

Excuse me, but are you saying that Lews serving his country in Afghanistan and not having the time/capabilities out there to join a Sky shell is an "excuse" to get "hooked up"? Lews is a good person who spends a lot of his time in-game helping others because he tends to get d/c'ed a lot and has slow connection speed due to the fact that he is in a WAR ZONE. He could have just bought the item he wants from RMT. Instead he brought a proposal to the public - one which anyone is free to turn down. I'm sure he could just wait until he gets home to join a Sky shell and get his gear. But he has the pop items so why not try to get it now if people are willing to help him?

Lavi: Why tear him down and derail his thread with some crap about how people like him are ruining Sky for legitimate Sky shells? Why not just choose not to accept his proposals, talk to your LS about that decision and why you think it's in yours and their best interest, and leave it at that. People either will or will not help him (and it looks like someone chose to help him - thank you for that). Why make a federal case out of it?

 

[Anaeran]

I'm sure he could just wait until he gets home to join a Sky shell and get his gear.

This, in my opinion, is exactly what he should do actually.

Like I said, I have the utmost respect for anyone who serves this country, especially in present day Iraq and Afghanistan. However, as I stated above, I still believe he should earn his item through the process by which it should be earned (ie: joining a shell and contributing to the team that rewards him).

It has nothing to do with who he is as a person. I bet he's a great guy and nothing I've said here is intended to insult Lews as a person (I don't even know him myself). The point of my debate here is the issue of casual players expecting to bypass the steps that more hardcore players had to take to get the same rewards on the basis of "not having enough time to do it that way". That is the direction this discussion veered off in, so I went with the debate.

I think, in most situations, players should have to put in the same time and effort as everyone else does to attain certain milestones in these games.

If some LS out there wants to help Lews, cool for him. It'll take him 45 seconds to get the same item that X number of players spent Y number of months camping pop items in sky for a *chance* to get. Grats I guess?

In this situation, its just a sky item, so its not a huge deal. My discussion here is focussed on this type of behavior on a larger scale --concerning all kinds of items in all kinds of MMO's, not just those from sky.

More specifically, I'm talking about the ongoing debate about whether casual players should receive special treatment in MMO's that gets them the same content/rewards as 'hardcore' players without putting in anywhere near the same amount of time/effort.

 

[Lavi]

Who are you to dictate whether or not someone deserves something? Really now, if this guy has his own pop set he can request whatever he wants. I really don't think the guy wanted a huge morality pitch from you on the topic. His post was well put together, he put the options he was willing to go for out there, and is providing his own pop set for the drop. It's a linkshell's discretion now whether or not he'll actually obtain the item. Just let it alone, and stop the argumentative process here. There's a place for that, and it's very reasonably labled the "Flameboard".

You earn it when it drops. That's not according to me, not according to you. According to SE directly. This game is a time sink, a huge time sink and if you can't handle it, then play WoW. There are a lot of other factors that go along with it as well. This game is an MMO, not just an RPG. Half the game is meant to be played as a team and achievements are meant to be done as groups, not solo. What achievement is there in buying everything? Not much. They're not meant to be soloed, they are meant to be done as groups and even more, they are EX which means you are meant to participate otherwise everything would be AH sellable.

Getting pop items is only half the job. The other half is getting a group to do it with you. While getting a group to help you is all fine and dandy, but is the group really benefitting?

And did you notice where you are? It's called End Game discussion. I discussed, you all flame baited me. I bit back and you called foul.

Ok, fuck it. I'm on page 5 and I'm already frustrated.

Lavi, if you have nothing else to say but 1) Things that make you seem smarter than you really are, while you are only in fact making yourself look like a bitch, 2) Whining about RMT (which is in nearly every post I've read of yours) or 3) Stooping down to seemingly the only insult you know of calling people Hackers; then please shut the hell up and move on.

You have completely derailed a simple request for assistance to a military personell who is overseas with very little time to play into a 'flame-like' topic to make yourself seem 'better' than said 'hackers and thieves'. Please just move the fuck on, you're just making yourself look even worse than you already did.

Lews, I hope you get the help you need.

I was insulted first. If he didn't want to be insulted back, he shouldn't have stooped to acting like a prick. As for my comments, if you don't like them then attack the argument not me. If you think there is a flaw, go for it. I am all welcome to hearing it, that's what discussion is all about. But so far all I've heard is intolerable idiots saying I am an @#$!@%, yourself included, because you don't want to agree. Fine, don't agree, but go be a bitch somewhere else. If you want to actually respond with something halfway intelligentand actually participate in a discussion, I welcome it; otherwise, just move on.

I never once attacked Lews other to say he didn't deserve it and that his stone might have been purchased off RMT, an accusation he has yet to really deny other than with a half-hearted reply. I say he doesn't deserve it because he didn't get it. It'd be like telling a GM to give you a THF's knife because Sozu wouldn't drop it for you (pre-update).

But let me ask this since you all think it's fair: Would you allow a LS member the same option? If a LS member lacks the points and refuses to wait while other members with higher attendance/points get their items, gains a pop item on his/her own time then pays 1mil to pop and get haidate, would that be fair and would you allow it? Would you allow lotting priorities to just become purchaseable? I mean if you allow a stranger to do it, why not a fellow friend and LS member? As far as I can tell, it's no different.

 

[Lavi]

Since this has gotten so far off topic, let me re-assert it so you can challenge the idea and not further the insults.

If a person presents a linkshell with pop items and asks for for a drop in exchange for the remaining items and possibly some gil to be distributed between the shell, it hurts the shell. The logic is fairly simple and straight forward. By popping, you are accepting that action and condoning it for future players. If that's the case, you are increasing the demand for pop items being sold in bazaar whether by RMT or by legit players looking to make gil. If the demand increases, they will farm more pop items. If they farm more, you will end up competing more with those players. If you compete more, you will end up losing more pop items that could potentially be used to get your shell the same items and not just gil.
Note: This does not apply to shells who are completely done with sky.

To me, there is only two ways you can disagree.
1) Either you believe there to be some flaw in the logic.
2) You'd rather give up the chance to gear your shell with desirable items or at the very least, wait on said items, in exchange for gil, roughly 50k if it's 1mil split 20 ways. Obviously the gil will vary depending on drops, but given that most shells pop with more than 20 people because many are waiting on drops, I don't think it's a bad estimate.

If you want to reply, reply to that. I still would like the previous example I gave aboved answered as well.

 

[Itachiii]

It's funny how some people think he did absolutely nothing to get the pop items. He put in the time and effort just like everyone else to get to pop Byakko.

I'm still in Lews' old LS that did Sky with him and no he did not steal the pop set from us.

I remember a LS asking another LS to help them kill a Sky god because they did not have the manpower at the time just like Lews doesn't. How is this any different? Why don't you jump down their throats and derail their thread as well? If you want I'll give you the link.

 

[Anaeran]

I remember a LS asking another LS to help them kill a Sky god because they did not have the manpower at the time just like Lews doesn't. How is this any different? Why don't you jump down their throats and derail their thread as well? If you want I'll give you the link.

Link me.

 

[jyakotsu]

You earn it when it drops. That's not according to me, not according to you. According to SE directly. This game is a time sink, a huge time sink and if you can't handle it, then play WoW. There are a lot of other factors that go along with it as well. This game is an MMO, not just an RPG. Half the game is meant to be played as a team and achievements are meant to be done as groups, not solo. What achievement is there in buying everything? Not much. They're not meant to be soloed, they are meant to be done as groups and even more, they are EX which means you are meant to participate otherwise everything would be AH sellable.

Getting pop items is only half the job. The other half is getting a group to do it with you. While getting a group to help you is all fine and dandy, but is the group really benefitting?

And did you notice where you are? It's called End Game discussion. I discussed, you all flame baited me. I bit back and you called foul.



I was insulted first. If he didn't want to be insulted back, he shouldn't have stooped to acting like a prick. As for my comments, if you don't like them then attack the argument not me. If you think there is a flaw, go for it. I am all welcome to hearing it, that's what discussion is all about. But so far all I've heard is intolerable idiots saying I am an @#$!@%, yourself included, because you don't want to agree. Fine, don't agree, but go be a bitch somewhere else. If you want to actually respond with something halfway intelligentand actually participate in a discussion, I welcome it; otherwise, just move on.

I never once attacked Lews other to say he didn't deserve it and that his stone might have been purchased off RMT, an accusation he has yet to really deny other than with a half-hearted reply. I say he doesn't deserve it because he didn't get it. It'd be like telling a GM to give you a THF's knife because Sozu wouldn't drop it for you (pre-update).

But let me ask this since you all think it's fair: Would you allow a LS member the same option? If a LS member lacks the points and refuses to wait while other members with higher attendance/points get their items, gains a pop item on his/her own time then pays 1mil to pop and get haidate, would that be fair and would you allow it? Would you allow lotting priorities to just become purchaseable? I mean if you allow a stranger to do it, why not a fellow friend and LS member? As far as I can tell, it's no different.

First off im very offended by these broad accusations. I never once called you any of that shit. I never once said that you were an asshole etc etc. All i did was oppose your opinion and now you are over generalizing and that isn't right.

Lews did not say shit to you at first. You were the one that said the first blow to him, i am rereading it so i dont get bit in the ass for saying something and the main gist of his post after yours was "i'm sorry you feel that way but this is what i want to do." Your response was "You don't deserve this." Now imho that was a considerable more negative than his first 2 posts. You threw the first blow in this fight, not anyone else.

Your correlation between begging a GMfor sozu's TH knife has no relevance to this argument. He bought his stone from BD, last i checked im sure you bought Ninja tools from the AH.... Or you have bought a mushroom stew from the AH. Does that mean you assist RMT as well? I mean 3/4 of the shit that comes from the AH is RMT based... I bet you other than the couple Pallas bracelets i've put up on the AH, i bet you a good % of them are RMT based.

And for the record, i know several people that pay gil for a BB item(which was said), or donate pop items to a kirin pop and request one item. W/O paying gil for it. I know several people that have done this. There is way more to gain here than to lose. Here is an example, Olrox's shell for 15 minutes of their time, because they were already doing gods. Earned 500k + an A abjuration, for popping Lews pop set. They could have been doing 4 Byakkos already. Lews did a majority of the work in getting the pop sets on his own, purchased or not. It's still 2mil in gil he had to somehow farm.

 

[Kunel]

Im just going to make a quick comparison and stay out of this....

KS99..1 person farms seals gets an orb

Shouts for 17 ppl to go...

He/she gets the item he/she wants...

the rest of the ppl free lot the rest.


Now, how is this any different?

 

[Itachiii]

http://www.qcdn.org/ffxi/showthread.php?t=48256

In the end the shell got screwed over but that isn't the point. The point is they requested help from the outside and they got it.