"Good times?" Depends on your perspective I guess

[Tec]

yes i was a member in OH snice they were the only shell that was good for my timezone and i did make alot of friends with them, they also help me get the sea .. i wont lie abot this

Right.
So I do not understand how you can agree with Zyn on this.

 

[Dayner]

so you saying is all X-OH members chesters and liars ?

 

[Tec]

so you saying is all X-OH members chesters and liars ?

Not at all what I am saying, Dayner.
I played with you for long time, I know you are legit.
I'm just saying you were around all of it, so how can you question someone else's integrity?

 

[Dayner]

as many ppl that know me .. i hate to start drama or flame abot anything

i talk with OH leaders and sometime in open abot this in shell chat

just because i didnt start a thread in qcdn abot this that donst mean i stand by watching

 

[Mattaru]

Matt apparently is a rather disgruntled player with less to add to this post than his claim for you adding to this subject altogether. Why are most Taru always such grumps and babble like old men aged beyond reason. =x

I have to agree Zyn. We shouldn't be making heros out of people who use people no matter how moral/immoral they are or claim to be. It's like saying you're buying morphine from a drug dealer to give to your mother for "medicinal purposes" instead of the proper channels and calling it a good deed (in this scenario). There is nothing stopping you from getting it the drug. And the drug dealer is more expensive just available to get on the spot instead of waiting a few days.

In the end, you're supporting the "bane of society" as the "majority" seam to put it. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and surely more people use the RMT in the RMT's favor or not that don't admit it.

Usually I let syntax go because mine is terrible, but what does your first sentence say again. I'm assuming you are saying I am adding as much to the subject at hand that I critique Zyn for adding. First, if you learned to read you'd see alot of what I was saying was pointed at Bajaratt's comments in the previous thread. Second, if you learned to read you wouldn't even said that. Let me break it down for you since it is not 1 am anymore:

Generally people who bring up value/ethical or character judgements in this game and relate that to a greater since of conduct that transcends just the game they tend to forget what it means to be playing this game on the same level. If you have a very relaxed ethical standard as far as being objective goes you are most likely acting out of "bad faith" unless your great calling and goal is to be playing FFXI, deep down its the only thing that makes you satisfied and there is no way your time could be spent better. If you have a standard like Bajaratt's (which seems Kantian, which I jokingly poked fun at) then you should be susceptible to all those ethical standards yourself, and I do not know how you can will a maxim of playing ffxi etc. Moreover, I'm sure most people upholding this standard just can't, which is a major reason why it is irrational (thats right Kant is irrational), so I can only assume they bring it up to educate the masses who are desperately uninformed about how they ought to be like myself.

These kind of arguments and quabbles about stuff ingame really has no merit other than getting our e-rocks off and stroking ourselves mentally, including myself. I just came. How disgruntled could I be?

If I have to hear anyone else say that getting B. Pants for 500k is not a rip off I'm going to give them 500k to farm me some, not that I couldn't get them myself, but I'd rather have you do it for 500k since its such a great deal.

 

[Bajaratt]

Usually I let syntax go because mine is terrible, but what does your first sentence say again. I'm assuming you are saying I am adding as much to the subject at hand that I critique Zyn for adding. First, if you learned to read you'd see alot of what I was saying was pointed at Bajaratt's comments in the previous thread. Second, if you learned to read you wouldn't even said that. Let me break it down for you since it is not 1 am anymore:

Generally people who bring up value/ethical or character judgements in this game and relate that to a greater since of conduct that transcends just the game they tend to forget what it means to be playing this game on the same level. If you have a very relaxed ethical standard as far as being objective goes you are most likely acting out of "bad faith" unless your great calling and goal is to be playing FFXI, deep down its the only thing that makes you satisfied and there is no way your time could be spent better. If you have a standard like Bajaratt's (which seems Kantian, which I jokingly poked fun at) then you should be susceptible to all those ethical standards yourself, and I do not know how you can will a maxim of playing ffxi etc. Moreover, I'm sure most people upholding this standard just can't, which is a major reason why it is irrational (thats right Kant is irrational), so I can only assume they bring it up to educate the masses who are desperately uninformed about how they ought to be like myself.

These kind of arguments and quabbles about stuff ingame really has no merit other than getting our e-rocks off and stroking ourselves mentally, including myself. I just came. How disgruntled could I be?

If I have to hear anyone else say that getting B. Pants for 500k is not a rip off I'm going to give them 500k to farm me some, not that I couldn't get them myself, but I'd rather have you do it for 500k since its such a great deal.

I don't forget that I'm playing a game just because I leave my morals at home as soon as I log onto the internet. I don't see how it can be considered a bad thing that I don't screw people over left and right and just say "it's just a game, grow up," like a moron. I'm not saying he's a thief in real life nor am I even mentioning real life at all(except in response to him saying he has a life so he can't earn his haidate legitimately), I'm just saying he did a shady thing in-game and the only reason everyone isn't jumping on him is because he did it to RMT. Considering that I haven't tried to steal a haidate from RMT, obviously I can live up to the same standard; I didn't even think about trying to steal one when I saw them shouting. The first thing that popped into my head when I saw the shouts was "oh look, I was right; RMT would sell the drops if they couldn't sell the stones."

Apparently I'm a rarity in that I don't act completely different and forget any morals when I log on.

 

[Rhaddy]

RMT got owned IMO. And that makes me smile.

Originally posted by Svina

Svina

Svina

lol wat

 

[Artem]

After reading this thread, this what I got:

It's okay to do immoral things as long as the people you are doing it to aren't considered people in your eyes.

It makes perfect sense!.. wait not it doesn't, what the hell are you guys smoking?

While I am glad to hear about RMT's getting screwed, this is not the method I like. All he did was get haidate for a good deal of 500k. He didn't put a dent in RMT by any means. Really, he did absolutely nothing to RMT in terms of profit. So it's okay to buy haidate for 500k, but it's not okay to buy at 7mil. Man I didn't realize RMT association only depended on how much you pay!

 

[jyakotsu]

After reading this thread, this what I got:

It's okay to do immoral things as long as the people you are doing it to aren't considered people in your eyes.

It makes perfect sense!.. wait not it doesn't, what the hell are you guys smoking?

While I am glad to hear about RMT's getting screwed, this is not the method I like. All he did was get haidate for a good deal of 500k. He didn't put a dent in RMT by any means. Really, he did absolutely nothing to RMT in terms of profit. So it's okay to buy haidate for 500k, but it's not okay to buy at 7mil. Man I didn't realize RMT association only depended on how much you pay!

QFT!!

 

[acts]

Okay. So they don't work, and they're in school. Like the difference of one free hour a day between your standard Employee(8,) and your standard Student(6.5+.5~ from homework) is SO GREAT that the ability to spend 100 hours in sky is miraculously concieved like the baby Jesus.

Theres a reason why being a Teacher is a full time job, because being a Student is virtually one as well.

Depends. I think more college aged students play this game than middle school / high school. And, to play along that thought process, college doesn't have you sitting in class 8 hours a day in one big chunk. You'll notice you actually have more free time and can schedule your classes however you want. The flexibility is definitely an advantage over someone like me who gets on late at night PST after 9 hours of work, and whatever IRL life stuff. I get on and end game is non-existent. Nobody is around and no sky shell is out on the NA side doing the stuff I want to do, or Sea and limbus for that matter.

 

[jyakotsu]

Depends. I think more college aged students play this game than middle school / high school. And, to play along that thought process, college doesn't have you sitting in class 8 hours a day in one big chunk. You'll notice you actually have more free time and can schedule your classes however you want. The flexibility is definitely an advantage over someone like me who gets on late at night PST after 9 hours of work, and whatever IRL life stuff. I get on and end game is non-existent. Nobody is around and no sky shell is out on the NA side doing the stuff I want to do, or Sea and limbus for that matter.

Skaw is refering to the HS student i think

 

[Mattaru]

I don't forget that I'm playing a game just because I leave my morals at home as soon as I log onto the internet. I don't see how it can be considered a bad thing that I don't screw people over left and right and just say "it's just a game, grow up," like a moron. I'm not saying he's a thief in real life nor am I even mentioning real life at all(except in response to him saying he has a life so he can't earn his haidate legitimately), I'm just saying he did a shady thing in-game and the only reason everyone isn't jumping on him is because he did it to RMT. Considering that I haven't tried to steal a haidate from RMT, obviously I can live up to the same standard; I didn't even think about trying to steal one when I saw them shouting. The first thing that popped into my head when I saw the shouts was "oh look, I was right; RMT would sell the drops if they couldn't sell the stones."

Apparently I'm a rarity in that I don't act completely different and forget any morals when I log on.

You don't get it.

I am saying if anyone asks someone to question the objective moral worth of what they do in a game they must first ask themselves what the objective moral value there is in playing this game in the first place. If people can't even give the game an ethical compass then how should one decide the moral value of what happens in the game. The only answer with any type of base is the ToS, which I used to consider BS anyway because it is an empty contract as SE was so ineffective at holding up there end, though that has changed imo. This si the standard I am referring to, not whether or not you happen to be stealing from the RMT. The warrants for this were in my last post.

Does this mean people can do whatever they want in ffxi, well there is a limit via ToS, other than that I think it is open game as long as you don't act in "bad faith" (i.e. creating your own standards/value and betraying them).

So, if you don't believe in any form of stealing in game and you don't steal, thats cool for you, just don't go forcing that on everyone else saying stealing is always bad no matter the situation just because that is your standard, if you want me to continue and say why that isn't true objectively barring ToS violation, sure I will.

Kotsu: I don't know what that first paragraph refers to how I'm being a fanboy hypocrite. It was condescending maybe, but not fanboyish. And what does me being a 75 BST have anything to do with it? <--I called Kotsu a fanboy because of his first post and rated him down, it added nothing only to condescend others without any sort of logical argument/warrant and pat Zyn on the back.

 

[jyakotsu]

You don't get it.

I am saying if anyone asks someone to question the objective moral worth of what they do in a game they must first ask themselves what the objective moral value there is in playing this game in the first place. If people can't even give the game an ethical compass then how should one decide the moral value of what happens in the game. The only answer with any type of base is the ToS, which I used to consider BS anyway because it is an empty contract as SE was so ineffective at holding up there end, though that has changed imo. This si the standard I am referring to, not whether or not you happen to be stealing from the RMT. The warrants for this were in my last post.

Does this mean people can do whatever they want in ffxi, well there is a limit via ToS, other than that I think it is open game as long as you don't act in "bad faith" (i.e. creating your own standards/value and betraying them).

So, if you don't believe in any form of stealing in game and you don't steal, thats cool for you, just don't go forcing that on everyone else saying stealing is always bad no matter the situation just because that is your standard, if you want me to continue and say why that isn't true objectively barring ToS violation, sure I will.

i dunno if that was as much the point as opposed to the OP getting her point across. Granted im all for screwing over RMT like many others. However there has to be a "Point" in which too much is too much.

Even if it is multiple people everyday playing one character, it is one person you are stealing an income from. Even though you hate RMT, would it be right to steal from a local store because they price gouged your friends local von's supermarket?

 

[Mattaru]

i dunno if that was as much the point as opposed to the OP getting her point across. Granted im all for screwing over RMT like many others. However there has to be a "Point" in which too much is too much.

Even if it is multiple people everyday playing one character, it is one person you are stealing an income from. Even though you hate RMT, would it be right to steal from a local store because they price gouged your friends local von's supermarket?

Once again, most of what I am talking about isn't pointed at Zyn.

RMT are breaking ToS by earning their wages pure and simple, that isn't even worth arguing. So your analogy should read would it be wrong to steal from your local shop owner who acquires his goods through illegitimate means. Personally, I would say it is morally neutral, it doesnt matter either way unless the original owner were to contact you for it. So unless Byakko comes to his MH he's in the clear.

If you are so worried about the wages of impoverished Chinese stop playing the game and donate your money to them. Peter Singer would say you were being morally reprehensible for not doing so ;.;. But he's a dolt.

EDIT: Someone please argue the moral staus of Byakko lol.

 

[jyakotsu]

Once again, most of what I am talking about isn't pointed at Zyn.

RMT are breaking ToS by earning their wages pure and simple, that isn't even worth arguing. So your analogy should read would it be wrong to steal from your local shop owner who acquires his goods through illegitimate means. Personally, I would say it is morally neutral, it doesnt matter either way unless the original owner were to contact you for it. So unless Byakko comes to his MH he's in the clear.

If you are so worried about the wages of impoverished Chinese stop playing the game and donate your money to them. Peter Singer would say you were being morally reprehensible for not doing so ;.;. But he's a dolt.

EDIT: Someone please argue the moral staus of Byakko lol.

LOL i totally loved the Peter singer add in.

But thats besides the point, I did not read every post that you posted so i did not see you mention that this had nothing to do w/ zyn's post and i appologize.

However even though they do earn a wage, they honestly dont "hack" anymore than some of the people on our server. It is like saying that just because I use windower its ok to steal from me, because technically Windower is illegal and breaks ToS agreements as well.

 

[Mattaru]

LOL i totally loved the Peter singer add in.

But thats besides the point, I did not read every post that you posted so i did not see you mention that this had nothing to do w/ zyn's post and i appologize.

However even though they do earn a wage, they honestly dont "hack" anymore than some of the people on our server. It is like saying that just because I use windower its ok to steal from me, because technically Windower is illegal and breaks ToS agreements as well.

Then it becomes an issue of what parts of the ToS should be taken into account. I mean a kind of letter vs spirit of the law argument, which does not have an easy answer. I play on PS2 now, but when I used to play on PC I used Windower. I don't want this to derail into a windower thread, but I will say people would find a way to hack and do with or without a windower, RMT behavior generally is more damaging. When I deal with RMT I consider them like any other opposition, but one that most likely is using 3rd party tools and doesn't hesitate to MPK me (and has multiple times), and I respond accordingly. If I were to deal with any other players doing the same I would retaliate the same, in so far that I do not do anything that would compromise my account.

I pity RMT, jk, but I do pity Taru RMT that have to follow Galkas and Elvaans around.

 

[jyakotsu]

Then it becomes an issue of what parts of the ToS should be taken into account. I mean a kind of letter vs spirit of the law argument, which does not have an easy answer. I play on PS2 now, but when I used to play on PC I used Windower. I don't want this to derail into a windower thread, but I will say people would find a way to hack and do with or without a windower, RMT behavior generally is more damaging. When I deal with RMT I consider them like any other opposition, but one that most likely is using 3rd party tools and doesn't hesitate to MPK me (and has multiple times), and I respond accordingly. If I were to deal with any other players doing the same I would retaliate the same, in so far that I do not do anything that would compromise my account.

I pity RMT, jk, but I do pity Taru RMT that have to follow Galkas and Elvaans around.

I will say this,

I have dealt with several people that have MPKed Non RMT. RMt have never once MPKed me so i guess i am fortunate.

However i treat RMT with the same respect i treat People who think racism and MPK is ok.

I dont think what they do is right by any means, however i dont categorize them in a totally different category than those who think its ok to use racism as a slander, or those who think its OK to MPK at pallas

 

[Bajaratt]

You don't get it.

I am saying if anyone asks someone to question the objective moral worth of what they do in a game they must first ask themselves what the objective moral value there is in playing this game in the first place. If people can't even give the game an ethical compass then how should one decide the moral value of what happens in the game. The only answer with any type of base is the ToS, which I used to consider BS anyway because it is an empty contract as SE was so ineffective at holding up there end, though that has changed imo. This si the standard I am referring to, not whether or not you happen to be stealing from the RMT. The warrants for this were in my last post.

Does this mean people can do whatever they want in ffxi, well there is a limit via ToS, other than that I think it is open game as long as you don't act in "bad faith" (i.e. creating your own standards/value and betraying them).

So, if you don't believe in any form of stealing in game and you don't steal, thats cool for you, just don't go forcing that on everyone else saying stealing is always bad no matter the situation just because that is your standard, if you want me to continue and say why that isn't true objectively barring ToS violation, sure I will.

Kotsu: I don't know what that first paragraph refers to how I'm being a fanboy hypocrite. It was condescending maybe, but not fanboyish. And what does me being a 75 BST have anything to do with it? <--I called Kotsu a fanboy because of his first post and rated him down, it added nothing only to condescend others without any sort of logical argument/warrant and pat Zyn on the back.

So in order to apply any kind of morality to someone's actions in-game, I have to show how just playing the game is a moral decision? If that's really what you're saying, that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Stealing items is against the ToS, GM's started enforcing against scammers months ago. So there is already a hard standard against stealing in the game; the gil sellers don't use any of the mechanisms for it, but it still exists.

 

[Mattaru]

I hear alot of things that appear dumb, what is even stupider is when people can't say why. It makes it very difficult to be responsive to ad hom unresponsive arguments. Van a'diel is round!

For someone who has the type of moral/ethical viewpoint I would assume nearly every decision has some moral weight because it is a conciouss choice no? You may like Kant, but if you say no I don't think he'd like you ; ~;.

Besides one's choice to play the game I'm saying the game has to have some sort of moral weight to really even think about the ethics within it. If the game is completely morally neutral then the only remaining moral compass we have is the assumptions about the players around us and how one ought to treat them. Which is an interesting question itself due to the role of distance, power and intimate contact that often come into play concerning other's moral worht and one's ability to effect it.

As far as ToS goes, I still think it is for the most part legitimate, but you really have to question it when SE punishes people that steal from RMT and yet the RMT remain. Its easy for you to devalue it and warranted to some degree in such cases.

 

[Rhaddy]

Besides one's choice to play the game I'm saying the game has to have some sort of moral weight to really even think about the ethics within it. If the game is completely morally neutral then the only remaining moral compass we have is the assumptions about the players around us and how one ought to treat them. Which is an interesting question itself due to the role of distance, power and intimate contact that often come into play concerning other's moral worht and one's ability to effect it.

hasn't this the point all along? not really interested in aruging what context it is okay to criticize based on moral grounds (don't fukkin care) but one really shouldn't have to argue their perrogative to make a judgement, whether it may be justifiable to you or not.

As far as ToS goes, I still think it is for the most part legitimate, but you really have to question it when SE punishes people that steal from RMT and yet the RMT remain. Its easy for you to devalue it and warranted to some degree in such cases.

At the same time, it's not within the individual's control to really enforce ToS. If someone breaks the law and it appears to be an act that's also personally morally reprehensible, your moral criticism of said act shouldn't depreciate if you use the law as a guideline (as with ToS) and not as a basis for morality.