"Good times?" Depends on your perspective I guess

[Makelith]

While I am glad to hear about RMT's getting screwed, this is not the method I like. All he did was get haidate for a good deal of 500k. He didn't put a dent in RMT by any means. Really, he did absolutely nothing to RMT in terms of profit. So it's okay to buy haidate for 500k, but it's not okay to buy at 7mil. Man I didn't realize RMT association only depended on how much you pay!

I like how this post was generally ignored despite its the main point of this whole deal almost.

QFT still, especially the bolded.

 

[Kotsu]

Kotsu: I don't know what that first paragraph refers to how I'm being a fanboy hypocrite. It was condescending maybe, but not fanboyish. And what does me being a 75 BST have anything to do with it? <--I called Kotsu a fanboy because of his first post and rated him down, it added nothing only to condescend others without any sort of logical argument/warrant and pat Zyn on the back.

A greater question those taking the high ground here ought to be asking themselves is spending days, weeks out of months and money (which yes you have a right to) is being used in the most ethical way by playing this game.

Yeah, I'm not saying you are a fanboy hypocrite. I'm saying you're a fucking hypocrite period. You took one of the longest, hardest jobs to 75. Obviously, you've put more time into this game than most people. Who are you to bring up any question in the statement of ethical use of income? I'm 22 and making, since I won't put down my actual income since I feel that's more bragging than anything else, over 50k per year. That said, I have plenty of disposable income. If I want to take $100 and throw it in the trash right now, I will. So obviously $15 per month (including my mules) is not an issue to me. So since you have that judgemental stick pointing towards the people who have enough ethical values to not intentionally endorse RMT sales with ANY sum of money, riddle me this one batman. What could you have done with the money you invested into this online game? Two wrongs do not make a right, simple as that. Now I could sit here all day and address people with big words to make my e-pen flex and feel fantastic. In stead, I can just speak my mind in a couple of sentences and save people a lot of time. However, since I've been prompted to respond then I will. I barely understand what argument you are trying to sustain anymore after reading through everything. Here's where your argument becomes worthless:

So, if you don't believe in any form of stealing in game and you don't steal, thats cool for you, just don't go forcing that on everyone else saying stealing is always bad no matter the situation just because that is your standard, if you want me to continue and say why that isn't true objectively barring ToS violation, sure I will.

It wasn't stealing, it was PURCHASING! He purchased the pants for 500k. Now, did he screw the RMT? Yes. That is wrong. However, he participated in RMT activities which if you look at the cause of bannings for the last year you'll see that the majority of bannings (and that's lowering with less activity) is for what? RMT Activities. So, riddle me that one. Was it a funny story; Hell yes it was. However, he should still be banned by SE's standards along with the RMT. Why? Great items come with work. If you don't put work into it, you don't deserve it. I live at work and school. If you don't have the time to get the items, then live without them. His purchase of the pants for 500k was a smack in the face of every legitimate player on our server, and the rest of the servers. For that, he should accept his fate. Just because you want to screw someone over doesn't mean you do it. What's better is if everyone does nothing with the RMT. Man, wouldn't that be funny? Y'know, they'd have no way to even make money. By the way:

I hear alot of things that appear dumb, what is even stupider is when people can't say why.

Guess what appears dumb to me? The use of the word "stupider," which is actually not a word. Nothing solidifies calling someone stupid quite like the inability to use correct words. I'm assuming you have Thesaurus.com in your favorites for your posts in this thread. Don't try to hard, kid. It can make your brain cramp up.

 

[Marajade]

This was an ultra epic thing and everyone who thinks it was "bad" needs to fornicate themselves with an iron stick.

RMT are not people within the frame of this game. Yes, the people at the computers are just as human as me and i'm not hatefull to them particularly. But they are not players. They're not even NPCs. They're tools being used by people to make money off a game in ways that are against the game itself. They have no rights, nor protections. Screwing them over whenever you can however you can is akin to pulling weeds from a public garden. No one cares, or more importantly, no one should care.

Getting mad at him for ripping them off for the Hidate is akin to the crazy people who call us murderers for eating meat. Not in the context that the animal was killed in an inhumane way or whatever, Just that we're eating another animal.

About all that should even be in the "not so great" collum of this whole thing is that he still payed 500k for them. But i'll overlook that since that was 7m less than they wanted.
Shoulda scammed them for free!

 

[Ugotjacked]

Dang those were some good comparisons. One thing though wtf is a public garden? Canada onry thing?

 

[Kotsu]

Maybe public garden is a park?

btw Marajde: I beat you to 3 green dots too. half way to four XD

 

[Valandil]

You don't get it.

I am saying if anyone asks someone to question the objective moral worth of what they do in a game they must first ask themselves what the objective moral value there is in playing this game in the first place. If people can't even give the game an ethical compass then how should one decide the moral value of what happens in the game. The only answer with any type of base is the ToS, which I used to consider BS anyway because it is an empty contract as SE was so ineffective at holding up there end, though that has changed imo. This si the standard I am referring to, not whether or not you happen to be stealing from the RMT. The warrants for this were in my last post.

Does this mean people can do whatever they want in ffxi, well there is a limit via ToS, other than that I think it is open game as long as you don't act in "bad faith" (i.e. creating your own standards/value and betraying them).

So, if you don't believe in any form of stealing in game and you don't steal, thats cool for you, just don't go forcing that on everyone else saying stealing is always bad no matter the situation just because that is your standard, if you want me to continue and say why that isn't true objectively barring ToS violation, sure I will.

Kotsu: I don't know what that first paragraph refers to how I'm being a fanboy hypocrite. It was condescending maybe, but not fanboyish. And what does me being a 75 BST have anything to do with it? <--I called Kotsu a fanboy because of his first post and rated him down, it added nothing only to condescend others without any sort of logical argument/warrant and pat Zyn on the back.

I would argue that one does not need to give a moral status to the act of playing the game itself. There are many different leisurely activities that one can participate in that do not require any assigned moral worth. However, where the morality of in-game actions come into play is the fact that in order to play the game, one must interact with other moral agents. It's not some huge leap of ethical theory to consistently apply a moral code to one's actions involving any form of interaction. The same principle of consistency would apply whether you were playing FFXI, baseball, Monopoly, etc.

I think the only counter-argument that poses a serious challenge is the argument that RMT should be viewed as non-entities or sub-human entities and therefore are not deserving of the same ethical consideration as other players. That could be debated until the end of time just as the debate between the moral status of animals has been debated for several centuries now.

I do not think that it is irrational for someone to have the mindset of "It's always wrong to steal regardless of the situation and/or from whom the theft occurred."

 

[Marajade]

Dang those were some good comparisons. One thing though wtf is a public garden? Canada onry thing?

They're sort of a public space where people who live around the area can grow stuff like vegtables or w/e. You see them alot in places where its hard to do it in a backyard or whatever. Tho it could also apply to the flower beads in parks and whatnot.

 

[Zyndara]

RMT are not people within the frame of this game. Yes, the people at the computers are just as human as me and i'm not hatefull to them particularly. But they are not players. They're not even NPCs. They're tools being used by people to make money off a game in ways that are against the game itself. They have no rights, nor protections. Screwing them over whenever you can however you can is akin to pulling weeds from a public garden. No one cares, or more importantly, no one should care.

Getting mad at him for ripping them off for the Hidate is akin to the crazy people who call us murderers for eating meat. Not in the context that the animal was killed in an inhumane way or whatever, Just that we're eating another animal.

About all that should even be in the "not so great" collum of this whole thing is that he still payed 500k for them. But i'll overlook that since that was 7m less than they wanted. Shoulda scammed them for free!

Another who misses the whole point. This isn't a hold hands and kiss an RMT day plea. I'm not debating are gilsellers human, do they constitute actual players, should we pity that they are starving in China. This isn't about the RMT whom we know are scum. It's about "legit" players who pride themselves so much on being on the "good side" and condemn/harrass/hate RMT all the while degrading themselves and doing deplorable and questionable things (ie: stealing, manipulating, lying) themselves. It's about not being a hypocrite.

How can people claim to be legit, decent players and turn around and say bad behavior is acceptable and even worse, celebrated as long as it's not against another legit player. There's just something really wrong with the situation when you're entitled to throw all kind of fairplay out the window to get whatever you want as long as RMT don't get what they want. By that kind of logic, you may as well say botting/hacks by legit shells should be ok as long as they are counter camping RMT because hey, every RMT bots/hacks, right? And since it'll be sticking it to RMT, it must be ok as long as the "good guys" profit and not the RMT. Riiiiight.

 

[Strid]

This shit is serious business. laff

 

[Mattaru]

Yeah, I'm not saying you are a fanboy hypocrite. I'm saying you're a fucking hypocrite period. You took one of the longest, hardest jobs to 75. Obviously, you've put more time into this game than most people. Who are you to bring up any question in the statement of ethical use of income? I'm 22 and making, since I won't put down my actual income since I feel that's more bragging than anything else, over 50k per year. That said, I have plenty of disposable income. If I want to take $100 and throw it in the trash right now, I will. So obviously $15 per month (including my mules) is not an issue to me. So since you have that judgemental stick pointing towards the people who have enough ethical values to not intentionally endorse RMT sales with ANY sum of money, riddle me this one batman. What could you have done with the money you invested into this online game? Two wrongs do not make a right, simple as that. Now I could sit here all day and address people with big words to make my e-pen flex and feel fantastic. In stead, I can just speak my mind in a couple of sentences and save people a lot of time. However, since I've been prompted to respond then I will. I barely understand what argument you are trying to sustain anymore after reading through everything. Here's where your argument becomes worthless:



It wasn't stealing, it was PURCHASING! He purchased the pants for 500k. Now, did he screw the RMT? Yes. That is wrong. However, he participated in RMT activities which if you look at the cause of bannings for the last year you'll see that the majority of bannings (and that's lowering with less activity) is for what? RMT Activities. So, riddle me that one. Was it a funny story; Hell yes it was. However, he should still be banned by SE's standards along with the RMT. Why? Great items come with work. If you don't put work into it, you don't deserve it. I live at work and school. If you don't have the time to get the items, then live without them. His purchase of the pants for 500k was a smack in the face of every legitimate player on our server, and the rest of the servers. For that, he should accept his fate. Just because you want to screw someone over doesn't mean you do it. What's better is if everyone does nothing with the RMT. Man, wouldn't that be funny? Y'know, they'd have no way to even make money. By the way:



Guess what appears dumb to me? The use of the word "stupider," which is actually not a word. Nothing solidifies calling someone stupid quite like the inability to use correct words. I'm assuming you have Thesaurus.com in your favorites for your posts in this thread. Don't try to hard, kid. It can make your brain cramp up.

Going to split this up into paragraphs:

1) You are assuming I think it is immoral what I am doing with my money. I am not, unless I feel like I'd rather be spending it somewhere else. What seems to be whoosing over people is that I am critquing the way people try to bring in objective moral standards into a morally dubious framework: a game. As well as asking if they are performing any performative contradictions via their ethical framework. These aren't big words, this is how I always talk if I want to have a civil argument.

2) A : Worth of an item is always dependent on the value you assign to it. RMT placed their value, He placed his and got it for his through means that would be best termed scamming. Not stealing, scamming. I am very aware of the difference and if you had read my response to Iso you would have seen that I consider it the same as buying a very nice item off the AH via a swift undercut.
B : Every player who got their B pants through their own LS's just placed more worth in them to obtain them through those means.
C : Stop buying shihei and a lot of other crafted goods, don't buy your Hauby which involves a D Ingot, don't buy Neptunal Gear which is obtained mainly through angel skins from manta fishing, forget about at least 1/4 of behemoth made goods, D cloth nope. It would be really funny if you stopped obtaining stuff from RMT.

3) Sorry I just did debate for 4 years in high school, always went to state and went to nationals twice. I know how to use words and structure an argument god forbid I try to use it. Not trying to brag, Im sure you can accept that since you are not trying to brag about your 50k+ a year salary.

Rhaddy:
1) Was trying to make clearer the idea that the chocie to play the game or not is often overlooked in Baja's ethical calculus and to check it. See Performative Contradiction above. They should have to argue their perogative if they are going to defend a certain framework and say its right to myself and others to take it seriously. Otherwise, I dont fukkin care either because it becomes a completely moot point and we are just masterbating again like I said earlier.

2) Sure thats fine.

Valandil:

1) Neither do I, but someone who believes humans are complete moral agents and every choice has an ethical repurcussion should.

2) Well there are people behind those desks so that is a dangerous claim to make as far as calling them sub-human. Within the context of the game it doesn't hold alot of weight either. I mean, they think, they act not based entirely off of a program (besides botting lol).

3) I wouldn't say it isn't entirely irrational. If you take a Kantian perspective and see that if everyone were allowed to steal, stealing would no longer be effective and is therefore irrational. So that type of paradigm would be very rational. Please no one say "omg he is contradicting himself", knowing more than one side of an issue just means you know it better. I don't agree with that perspective and if you try to use it I'll turn it.


EDIT: And Kotsu BST isn't hard if you have patience, good bst friends and arent an idiot, but I know what you are trying to say. When BST pt alot to me it just means they arent getting the most out of the job is all I dont get pissed, BST is about doing what you want.

 

[Rhaddy]

Rhaddy:
1) Was trying to make clearer the idea that the chocie to play the game or not is often overlooked in Baja's ethical calculus and to check it. See Performative Contradiction above. They should have to argue their perogative if they are going to defend a certain framework and say its right to myself and others to take it seriously. Otherwise, I dont fukkin care either because it becomes a completely moot point and we are just masterbating again like I said earlier.

I thought that's what the flame board was about. Inflating egos and circle jerks. ('~' . No, I'm more about the whole, as long as it makes sense in their own subjective moral framework- i could care less about them having to prove it to me, thing. Maybe it's just selfish or too much influenced by pomo thinking, but I don't really care that much about contradictions when it comes to expressing opinions. Probably has something to do with the fact that I don't really post on fb trying to convince people nor do I usually take other people's opinions as serious attempts to convince me.

As for the non-human/sub-human rmt argument, I'm in agreement that the context isn't correct. If you're putting it in the context of the game, its probably better to differentiate between legit players and ToS breaking players rather than using something so vague and overarching as "human" to catagorize them.

I think the subjective experience that most people have to go through of getting a pair of haidate together with the the act of scamming to get one is enough to justify a criticism of sorts, even if it is only a personal ideological one. It's a game, but it doesn't really lessen the time and effort that most have to put into the item. Though I don't really care that he has it, as it has little influence on me, I would feel that he missed a big part of earning the item, which, builds character / hair on the chest / is personally valuable. Pity instead of disdain.

 

[Mattaru]

No, I'm more about the whole, as long as it makes sense in their own subjective moral framework- i could care less about them having to prove it to me, thing. Maybe it's just selfish or too much influenced by pomo thinking

Agreed, as long as people check their frameworks and make sure it even works for them.

I mainly qouted this for pomo - when RMT sub-human argument came up did you think discursive genocide or was that just me ; .;.

 

[Kerowynn]

Apparently I'm a rarity in that I don't act completely different and forget any morals when I log on.

Lol thanks for the rate down, Baj. Haven't had one of those since Neolink was banned. Okay if you want me to say it, here it is. How does tricking RMT (which goes against the terms of service) compare to ignoring your linkshells' rules and in essence stealing from them when you don't get a drop fast enough for your tastes? It's a good thing you don't forget your morals when you log on.

 

[Kotsu]

Thanks for splitting in paragraphs, only quoting the pieces pertaining to me.

Going to split this up into paragraphs:

1) You are assuming I think it is immoral what I am doing with my money. I am not, unless I feel like I'd rather be spending it somewhere else. What seems to be whoosing over people is that I am critquing the way people try to bring in objective moral standards into a morally dubious framework: a game. As well as asking if they are performing any performative contradictions via their ethical framework. These aren't big words, this is how I always talk if I want to have a civil argument.

2) A : Worth of an item is always dependent on the value you assign to it. RMT placed their value, He placed his and got it for his through means that would be best termed scamming. Not stealing, scamming. I am very aware of the difference and if you had read my response to Iso you would have seen that I consider it the same as buying a very nice item off the AH via a swift undercut.
B : Every player who got their B pants through their own LS's just placed more worth in them to obtain them through those means.
C : Stop buying shihei and a lot of other crafted goods, don't buy your Hauby which involves a D Ingot, don't buy Neptunal Gear which is obtained mainly through angel skins from manta fishing, forget about at least 1/4 of behemoth made goods, D cloth nope. It would be really funny if you stopped obtaining stuff from RMT.

3) Sorry I just did debate for 4 years in high school, always went to state and went to nationals twice. I know how to use words and structure an argument god forbid I try to use it. Not trying to brag, Im sure you can accept that since you are not trying to brag about your 50k+ a year salary.


EDIT: And Kotsu BST isn't hard if you have patience, good bst friends and arent an idiot, but I know what you are trying to say. When BST pt alot to me it just means they arent getting the most out of the job is all I dont get pissed, BST is about doing what you want.

1) You make it seem inethical, or at least that we should feel that it is inethical, for us to spend our money in a video game for entertainment purposes. Granted, some people it may be an addiction. I know I'm not the case since I'm a 6-12 hours/week kinda guy (maybe a little more while school's out. Wed,Sun = days off; Wed,Sun = Jet ski'in at the beach house) so it's hard to say why people play. Anyhow, the question does not involve why the play. What you want them to question is how they could better use that 10-20 bucks a month they spend. When you talked about certain things breaking the ToS being ok on page 3 or 4, well... To break the ToS, the rules, the laws of the game. Well, to do so willingly and knowingly to get away with it well... That's chaos, that's anarchy. So what you wanted to question, the perplex morality of an online interactive video game player. The player is human and thus should remain to behave humane in these settings, as he is still dealing with society. To act with complete disregard to others is, in every sense of being, wrong and certainly not morally sound. I find that your argument here is on it's last leg; I just can't understand where you are trying to come from with it.

2) A) Scamming is wrong. RMT actions are wrong. To involve yourself in RMT actions to scam those doing said actions is wrong. How can Wrong + Wrong = Right? That makes no sense to me. Also, the undercutting on the AH is bullshit too. That's a whole new discussion though. As far as value is concerned, there's multiple kinds of value. Monetary value, sentimental value, social value to just name a few. Well, he did no work to get those legs so I'd say he is lacking in sentimental value and socially I doubt anyone can respect someone who did nothing to receive those pants. I'd say what it is really is just someone who put 500k into the RMT's pocket. How much did the pop-item sell for anyway? I doubt it's 500k, so I'd say they still had a minimal profit. He basically just MADE them $35.00 for maybe an hours worth of work. If you can respect that, great. But all these fucks who cheat, bot, aid RMT, steal, buy gil, or join in RMT activities for whatever reasons... Yeah, All are wrong, and equally wrong. They're all idiots and should be banned for their actions, as according to the ToS. The Laws of the game.

B) Well, I kinda addressed this with the different kinds of value argument.

C) I get my Shihei from a friend, and everything else I don't use. I bug people on QCDN for crafted items, and I camp myself. I do everything I can to avoid it. Also, see where I said intentionally aiding RMT. That word makes a difference.

3) Trust me, it's plenty more than 50k/year. And I guaruntee you there are plenty of adults on this server who make more than me (50k/yr @ 22 years old is damn good in this area btw) so as I said the 10-20 bucks per month is minimal and definately disposable income. Also, I'm in the car business. My quick-thinking and speaking/comprehension ability completely dictates my income.

To the Edit: All I know is BST, for most, is difficult because it is very time consuming since it is a lot of soloing. My beastmaster is level 1 for a reason, and I didn't pretend to know too much of what I was talking about in regards to that. All I do know is, I can get to 75 on Whitemage much faster than a beastmaster could. Simply, it's just the nature of the job(s).


My Edit: Just so you know, I won't be answering to this until maybe tomorrow morning. I'm leaving work now and plan on relaxing tonight. This way you don't think I'm bitching out.

 

[jyakotsu]

Lol thanks for the rate down, Baj. Haven't had one of those since Neolink was banned. Okay if you want me to say it, here it is. How does tricking RMT (which goes against the terms of service) compare to ignoring your linkshells' rules and in essence stealing from them when you don't get a drop fast enough for your tastes? It's a good thing you don't forget your morals when you log on.

wtf someone rated you down? wow thats seriously like a first

Only 2 people have ever rated me down, one for ignorance on someone's gender outside of game, and the other from a racist prick named Chaosassasin.
*EDIT* and stupid dumbarsh galkor....

im sorry you got rated down for such a small thing

 

[Master Honcho]

lu lu lu

i got some apples.... lu lu lu you got some too- South Park's Butters

nah this dude was cool to piss off rmt but not cool to pay em 500k;

discussion done!!!

 

[Mishaela]

Isn't "Stealing from RMT because they're not legit" more or less a prettied-up way of saying "it's OK to benefit from their cheating by using equally shady methods of playing the game to boot"?

Curious as to what you guys think of it as, because that's all it really is...benefiting off of their screwing legit shells out of crap.

Stealing from* thieves can make you skillful, witty, or "cool" in the eyes of friends, but it certainly doesn't make you a hero. =P

I don't care one way or the other if some people think it's or not, to be honest. I, for one however, just don't see it as the right thing to do.

 

[Ryuhei]

Originally posted by Svina

Svina

Svina

lol wat

 

[Marajade]

Another who misses the whole point. This isn't a hold hands and kiss an RMT day plea. I'm not debating are gilsellers human, do they constitute actual players, should we pity that they are starving in China. This isn't about the RMT whom we know are scum. It's about "legit" players who pride themselves so much on being on the "good side" and condemn/harrass/hate RMT all the while degrading themselves and doing deplorable and questionable things (ie: stealing, manipulating, lying) themselves. It's about not being a hypocrite.

How can people claim to be legit, decent players and turn around and say bad behavior is acceptable and even worse, celebrated as long as it's not against another legit player. There's just something really wrong with the situation when you're entitled to throw all kind of fairplay out the window to get whatever you want as long as RMT don't get what they want. By that kind of logic, you may as well say botting/hacks by legit shells should be ok as long as they are counter camping RMT because hey, every RMT bots/hacks, right? And since it'll be sticking it to RMT, it must be ok as long as the "good guys" profit and not the RMT. Riiiiight.

The issue becomes that its not lying, manipulating, or stealing. In the same way that a single action can have multiple differnt views depending on where its employed, on what, and when.

And to answer your point in the second paragraph, yes. If this botter in question, in a perfect world, used these bots and hacks only against RMT and only when no legitimate player was affected in any way and only to hurt an RMT, i would'nt view it as bad as i do botting and hacking in general. An example would be, if this person had a progam/hack that could make any monster he targeted become "call for help" status. If he only used it on monsters that RMT were fighting, i'd have no problem with it. But because no one ever uses hacks just to scew over RMT, your point is irrelevant.

 

[Mattaru]

1) You make it seem inethical, or at least that we should feel that it is inethical, for us to spend our money in a video game for entertainment purposes. Granted, some people it may be an addiction. I know I'm not the case since I'm a 6-12 hours/week kinda guy (maybe a little more while school's out. Wed,Sun = days off; Wed,Sun = Jet ski'in at the beach house) so it's hard to say why people play. Anyhow, the question does not involve why the play. What you want them to question is how they could better use that 10-20 bucks a month they spend. When you talked about certain things breaking the ToS being ok on page 3 or 4, well... To break the ToS, the rules, the laws of the game. Well, to do so willingly and knowingly to get away with it well... That's chaos, that's anarchy. So what you wanted to question, the perplex morality of an online interactive video game player. The player is human and thus should remain to behave humane in these settings, as he is still dealing with society. To act with complete disregard to others is, in every sense of being, wrong and certainly not morally sound. I find that your argument here is on it's last leg; I just can't understand where you are trying to come from with it.

2) A) Scamming is wrong. RMT actions are wrong. To involve yourself in RMT actions to scam those doing said actions is wrong. How can Wrong + Wrong = Right? That makes no sense to me. Also, the undercutting on the AH is bullshit too. That's a whole new discussion though. As far as value is concerned, there's multiple kinds of value. Monetary value, sentimental value, social value to just name a few. Well, he did no work to get those legs so I'd say he is lacking in sentimental value and socially I doubt anyone can respect someone who did nothing to receive those pants. I'd say what it is really is just someone who put 500k into the RMT's pocket. How much did the pop-item sell for anyway? I doubt it's 500k, so I'd say they still had a minimal profit. He basically just MADE them $35.00 for maybe an hours worth of work. If you can respect that, great. But all these fucks who cheat, bot, aid RMT, steal, buy gil, or join in RMT activities for whatever reasons... Yeah, All are wrong, and equally wrong. They're all idiots and should be banned for their actions, as according to the ToS. The Laws of the game.

B) Well, I kinda addressed this with the different kinds of value argument.

C) I get my Shihei from a friend, and everything else I don't use. I bug people on QCDN for crafted items, and I camp myself. I do everything I can to avoid it. Also, see where I said intentionally aiding RMT. That word makes a difference.

3) Trust me, it's plenty more than 50k/year. And I guaruntee you there are plenty of adults on this server who make more than me (50k/yr @ 22 years old is damn good in this area btw) so as I said the 10-20 bucks per month is minimal and definately disposable income. Also, I'm in the car business. My quick-thinking and speaking/comprehension ability completely dictates my income.

To the Edit: All I know is BST, for most, is difficult because it is very time consuming since it is a lot of soloing. My beastmaster is level 1 for a reason, and I didn't pretend to know too much of what I was talking about in regards to that. All I do know is, I can get to 75 on Whitemage much faster than a beastmaster could. Simply, it's just the nature of the job(s).


My Edit: Just so you know, I won't be answering to this until maybe tomorrow morning. I'm leaving work now and plan on relaxing tonight. This way you don't think I'm bitching out.

I may stop posting after this because debating online is the most unresponsive affair.

1)
A : I'm saying, if you have objective moral standards that are not broken by being in the game or not you have to be accountable to that. I offered one example (which was kind of a joke, jya caught it) about spending your money for famine or whatever; the example that was not a joke was about questioning if your (not you specifically) objective ethical framework would look kindly on spending a certain amount of time and money in the pseudo-reality of FFXI.

B : I said I used to believe it was fine to break the ToS because it was a pointless contract between SE and players. Pointless because any contract or law has corresponding obligations by both parties, and for awhile SE neglected its side of the bargain by allowing RMT and 3rd parties to run rampant. The only good argument against this was probably from Rhaddy talking about enforcing it yourself. If that is your perogative in the situation that is fine, but I do not think you can push that on other people in the name of an empty contract. My opinions on this has changed since I believe SE has cleaned up its act. Still, like any law, its your choice whether or not to abide by it, just one choice has repurcussions and one can argue the morality of any law.

C : I say acting without regard to others is for the most part against our nature as social animals, but if you don't have any obligation to another person that is clear and definable then technically anything goes; just don't act in "bad faith" and you are in the clear ethically.

D : My last leg, I dun know bout dat. Lastly, how about I just let the cat out of the bag and say all morality is a construction to mitigate the others' will to power and transcending ethics is your best bet. Anything else is life-negating. May sound crazy but its the most influential idea of the late 19th century so just don't take my word for it.

2)
A: The word wrong, see my last point D. Wrong and right are subjective and inversed dependent on your place in a master/slave moral hierarchy. I won't explain this to you.

B: Your argument on value is so muttled and lacks any definable points for me to poke holes in its almost ironically impenetrable. That wasn;t a compliment ; .;.

Your B : Ok, just apply what I just said here then.

C : God forbid I'm going to give your SAM a reason to not by a Hauby. Intentional and tacit is a hazy hazy line.

3) That is neat.

Inethical is so stupider.