Guard Skill Up

Skaw said:
I spent about 10 minutes(It was more)
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This is the exact thing I talk about... 10 minutes, no skill... So?

I went up to TBT to get my last 0.3 on Shield on PLD, I mean hey, I couldn't get that doing gods or w/e right?

I solo'd 3 steelshells before it came, how long do you think it takes to kill a steelshell on PLD in full def gear using martial wand for better MP ws's?
Took about 45 min, to get 0.3, which I could have gotten doing whatever else, wouldn't really make a differance.

Dumb?
I'll admit to that, but that's why I'm having such a hard time with this whole discussion I guess.
 
Reko said:
Never said I was, and I dont mean to sound like it.

All I'm saying is that most people just eat whatever's served and dont actually put in an effort, or even try themselves.
And yes, I do beleive some of the posters in this thread actually tried to skill it, seriously.
I'm just "alittle" more retarded when it comes to skilling.
Some people get super excited when their leather/gold/alch/whatev rise 0.1 and I'm the same way, but in a whole other area of "crafts"...

I just choose no to beleive SE designed one skill to be SO much tougher than all the rest because it makes no sense.
But hey, I'll willingly announce I was wrong, AFTER I gave it a serious attempt myself.
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I'm excited when I see my guard skill has gone up, because I know it's such a huge pain in the ass to level. Everyone's excited when rare things happen, for monks that's guard skillups. The probable reason why they limited it's effectiveness is because it's a 75% or greater reduction in damage and it can kick in on weaponskills; which would make monks even stronger in survivability if it proc'd at the rate of parry or shield. Hell, we probably wouldn't have to sub ninja anymore just due to the sheer damage reduction.

Spent another 2 hours letting 4-5 mobs beat on me, got 0.5 skill, still ridiculously slow.
 
Reko said:
I just choose no to beleive SE designed one skill to be SO much tougher than all the rest because it makes no sense.
But hey, I'll willingly announce I was wrong, AFTER I gave it a serious attempt myself.
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if you have to see it to believe it, suit yourself. but you are talking to a thread full of veteran monks that are you telling you how it is, and you are basically refusing to believe it.. which is kinda.... being naive.
 
Reko said:
All I'm saying is that most people just eat whatever's served and dont actually put in an effort, or even try themselves.

I just choose no to beleive SE designed one skill to be SO much tougher than all the rest because it makes no sense.
But hey, I'll willingly announce I was wrong, AFTER I gave it a serious attempt myself.
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Myself, Skaw, and Baja all make a real effort (can't speak for the others because I haven't been there personally) to skill it... and don't do it often because it's such a horrible pain in the ass. We're the ones telling you you're crazy. Just maybe we know what we're talking about, eh?

And guard has been PROVEN to be hardest to skill. Hell, it should be obvious. 15% proc rate, max, and only works with shadows down. Parry procs through shadows, and procs more. Shield procs way more. Evasion is loleasy to cap. Any weapon skill is easier than evasion. If that minor amount of logic is impossible for you to grasp, then I really don't know what's wrong with you.
 
Reko said:
This is the exact thing I talk about... 10 minutes, no skill... So?
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Way to miss the key point. Time doesn't matter, but how many times you see the skill activate compared to how many times you're hit. Over 220 attacks is a pretty decent sampling. I had 230 skill, and only had Guard activate 35 or so times. That's pretty piss fucking poor. This doesn't include the minute or two of being hit by both a Champion and a Dreadnaught.
 
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Mai Ikari said:
Myself, Skaw, and Baja all make a real effort (can't speak for the others because I haven't been there personally) to skill it... and don't do it often because it's such a horrible pain in the ass. We're the ones telling you you're crazy. Just maybe we know what we're talking about, eh?

And guard has been PROVEN to be hardest to skill. Hell, it should be obvious. 15% proc rate, max, and only works with shadows down. Parry procs through shadows, and procs more. Shield procs way more. Evasion is loleasy to cap. Any weapon skill is easier than evasion. If that minor amount of logic is impossible for you to grasp, then I really don't know what's wrong with you.
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Yes, you just might. But like you said, dont do it often.
So I can understand people might think it would take 5 years...

Ofcourse I realize it will be alot harder than any weapon.
But really, 35 procs out of 230 attacks dont seem that bad to me compared to parry.


Anyhoo, it's a tough skill, never said it would be a walk in the park.
All I'm saying is it wont take as long as people say.
I'm actually more concerned about getting to 75 lol...
 
35/230 is just over 15%, which is the max proc rate for guard; skaw just got slightly lucky. Parrying still kicks in more, skills up faster and is safer to level. the(at least) 50x people with capped parrying compared to guard should be proof enough that guard is harder, but apparently that's just lost on you.

So, we might be right that it's a huge pain in the ass to level, but we don't do it often; did you ever think there might be a link between the two? If it didn't require hours to get a single point, I'd go skill it up more often, as would every other monk. Yes, I'm probably exaggerating by saying it'll take 5 years, but not by much and that's assuming you actually do something other than level guard non-stop. I'm not sure how little of a life you have to waste on such a thing, but it will drive you mad long before you actually complete it.
 
Reko said:
Yes, you just might. But like you said, dont do it often.
So I can understand people might think it would take 5 years...
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Ok, I've come to the conclusion: YOU ARE PURPOSLY REFUSING TO LISTEN TO ANY AND ALL LOGIC.

This is a 1 + X = 2 thing, ok? There arn't many possibilities as to what X can be. You don't need to spend 5 hours trying to fit a 5 inch peg into a 3 inch hole to know it's not gonna work, you only need a few minutes. If though a few 10, 30, 1 hour sessions (actually trying, ok? Just assume that please, not talking about some exp party) you get little or no skillups, you can use basic logic to figure out, hey, it's always gonna be like this, THIS SUCKS, and go off and do more productive things. Like skill club for uber Starlight action.

Doing the exact same thing over and over while expecting different results is a sign of insanity, yet that seems to be exactly what you're expecting us to do.
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Image hotlinked instead of on photobucket because they keep timing out on me, will fix tomorrow -_-
 
Mai Ikari said:
Note to self: Reading comprehension is only active after 3:00 PM.

And as to how I managed to get mandys confused with Saplings... I'm blaming the morning thing too.

You missed my point about NIN sub, though. A pre-60 MNK, unless he's very well geared, is not going to pull enough hate to even think about needing NIN sub. He finds it easy enough to pound away as /WAR, and giving the WHM a bit of a workout every few fights when he pulls hate towards the end (assuming traditional SC party). Giving up his favorite abilities, Double Attack and Berserk, in exchange for more survivability that he doesn't use, seems utterly stupid. But MNK 75+ with end-game gear and merits is a whole different job from MNK before Howling Fist.

Lowest proc rate in the game, lowest skillup rate for its proc rate, and you're fighting an uphill battle due to 250+ evasion and sub-150 guard.
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note on the tanking bit, if i fought anything that wasn't a crab or a beetle, i was tank. I tried using crow stuff but it hampered my performance TOO much(virtually every piece of that set is replacing an important damage boosting piece). 50:1 sounds like a good number, but when you really think about it? it's probably closer to 75 or 100 to one. how many cap guarders do you know? i know more than one parry capped nin, but i know 0 monks personally.

I actually bothered logging on and re-testing this. my proc rate was around 13% and after guarding close to 450 attacks i had .7....

If Mai and Skaw are telling you something about monk, you'd do well to just stop arguing and pay heed. i estimate you will abandon your quest at about 150. if you break 200(and i'll check in with you in the 1.5 years it's gonna take you, assuming you haven't died in front of your computer playing 18 hours a day) i'll give you a cookie, maybe even a wizard cookie. because at tat point the whm alt you will have leveled to keep you alive through this process will need them.
 
Mai Ikari said:
Ok, I've come to the conclusion: YOU ARE PURPOSLY REFUSING TO LISTEN TO ANY AND ALL LOGIC.
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That's what I said after 10+ forced pops on Cancer...
Yes... Reko, my dear brother, was actually popping Cancer for
that r/e-whatever weapon...
(He even dragged me there once or twice, so I guess stubborn-
ness runs in the familly...)
For all you mnk-players, gangstas and thugs, put all your doubt
and reason aside, and just lay back and watch him go.
 
Rorion said:
That's what I said after 10+ forced pops on Cancer...
Yes... Reko, my dear brother, was actually popping Cancer for
that r/e-whatever weapon...
(He even dragged me there once or twice, so I guess stubborn-
ness runs in the familly...)
For all you mnk-players, gangstas and thugs, put all your doubt
and reason aside, and just lay back and watch him go.
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There's nothing to watch, he won't be able to magically do what hundreds of monks before him haven't. I don't see why you're acting like he'll cap guard in a few days just to "prove us all wrong," or why you seem to think we don't believe he can skill it up at all. If he caps guard, it will take longer than it took for him to cap shield, parry if he has it capped, and way way longer than lolevasion. THe only way he'd cap it in under a year is if he does nothing but level guard, not eat/sleep/work/school/bathroom/anything else in the game, just guard skillups.

We're not saying it's impossible, just that the amount of time it takes to level is far above any other skill. He is the one saying it's easier than we think, when he has absolutely no experience in the matter and the people who say it's hard have tons of experience. It's naive to think that he'll magically skill up guard faster than anyone else and have an easy time of it. If he has no life and is willing to put the time in, fine, but you won't see results anytime soon.
 
what's that saying? something like "never argue with an idiot, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience" ? starting to seem applicable. and whilst this thread should reamain unlocked as a valuable source of guard skilling info, it really needs to be locked because it's going to go on like this for pages.
Experienced monks talking knowledgeably vs persons refusing to face actuality.

FYI, many different weapons skills can be capped in a good day. and if you have a partner and healing you can unlock a weapon in much less.
 
I can see why Reko would think it's easy. Until 175 or so, the skill does actually go up pretty reliably, despite the low activation rate. After that it's the second coming of Jesus when you do gain skill.
 
Skaw said:
I can see why Reko would think it's easy. Until 175 or so, the skill does actually go up pretty reliably, despite the low activation rate. After that it's the second coming of Jesus when you do gain skill.
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Not once did I say it was easy.
I merely said that if you put time and effort into it, it's not as bad as people seems to think.
And by time and effort, I'm not talking 5 hours/week.
If you want something done, you do it. It's as simple as that.
And after about 3 years playing this game, I've noticed that the thing that most people have in common is that they want stuff for free.
Or atleast not willing to put in adequate(sp) effort.
Not pointing any fingers at you guys here, Skaw, Mai or Baja.
I respect your inputs and thoughts, but Baja pretty much as it as to how I will go about it.
I dont play 18 hours per day, since I have a "9 to 5" job, I can rarely play more than 10 :P
But, I will put end-game aside. And if I'm not exping, I will be skilling Guard.

I had a goal, to get all 14 quested ws's, so obvioulsy I had to level mnk anyway.
Getting Guard capped is tougher though, and will probably even be a challenge for retarded ol' Reko.

And about that Cancer thing...
15 min repop for the ??? and I traded 11 full stacks of Quus there. Takes 1/time. That's what, 33 hours at Kuftal entrance... for a lousy GS that I wanted for looks.
So spending 33333 hours for something I want to be one of the few ever isn't really that bad :P


And BCH, the beauty with having friends login info is that you dont need to level and alternate character ^^
I will however need another 24 lvl's on RDM.


Anyhoo, good talk ya'll, I'll post pics of progress as soon as Mee Deggi will share some of his gloves >.<
 
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heres another thread where we discussed guarding, gear, and such...

http://www.qcdn.org/ffxi/showthread.php?t=39809

simply put its a bitch. my guards gone up bout 25 lvls since that thread, that was from january methinks.

i never knew to skill sh!t omw to 75, when i eventually decided to start grinding gaurd, i already had 4 eva merits. which makes it quite difficult to skill on guard lvl appropriate mobs.

the 2 monks i know with guard over 200 are Odhinn 222, and Santoro (stoopid monkey) 205.

g'luck kid.

/bow

edit: if i get 1 skill lvl per 2 hours i'm f'n ecstatic. oh, and i get a chubby from seeing .5 skillzups
 
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Just curious, but could the type of hand-to-hand you use be related to parrying rate? I honestly know very little about Guarding but I was thinking, maybe it could have a similar aspect as Shield? Probably not since it probably would've been discovered long ago, but thought I'd ask.
 
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Bajaratt said:
There's nothing to watch, he won't be able to magically do what hundreds of monks before him haven't. I don't see why you're acting like he'll cap guard in a few days just to "prove us all wrong," or why you seem to think we don't believe he can skill it up at all.
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You are just taking what I'm saying the wrong way...
I never said he would have it done by lunch tomorrow,
stop making stuff up.
Reko kinda explained it good in his post;
Reko said:
Not once did I say it was easy.
I merely said that if you put time and effort into it, it's not as bad as people seems to think.
And by time and effort, I'm not talking 5 hours/week.
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Perhaps you should ask what people mean, not just
asume that you know what they mean.

gg
 
Rorion said:
You are just taking what I'm saying the wrong way...
I never said he would have it done by lunch tomorrow,
stop making stuff up.
Reko kinda explained it good in his post;


Perhaps you should ask what people mean, not just
asume that you know what they mean.

gg
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How about learning to say what you mean clearly instead of making implications just to later say "I didn't mean that, idiot." Don't blame me for your inability to clearly say what you mean, hell you've even changed your position between those posts. "Just Lay back and watch him go," is a heavy implication that he's going to be really good at it, that he'll get it done really quickly and be good at it; it in no way implies that he's just willing to put in the ungodly amount of hours it would take to skill up guard, which is what you're both saying he'll do now.

There's nothing to watch, I said it was going to take a huge amount of time, you're talking like he'll bang it out in a week and we'll all be surprised. It was only in his last posts that he admitted that he's going to put in the inordinate amount of time required. Before that, he was saying it was a lot easier than the people who have made serious attempts to skill it up were saying. Now, he's changed he's just saying he'll put the time in to skill it up.
 
Bajaratt said:
How about learning to say what you mean clearly instead of making implications just to later say "I didn't mean that, idiot." Don't blame me for your inability to clearly say what you mean, hell you've even changed your position between those posts. "Just Lay back and watch him go," is a heavy implication that he's going to be really good at it, that he'll get it done really quickly and be good at it; it in no way implies that he's just willing to put in the ungodly amount of hours it would take to skill up guard, which is what you're both saying he'll do now.

There's nothing to watch, I said it was going to take a huge amount of time, you're talking like he'll bang it out in a week and we'll all be surprised. It was only in his last posts that he admitted that he's going to put in the inordinate amount of time required. Before that, he was saying it was a lot easier than the people who have made serious attempts to skill it up were saying. Now, he's changed he's just saying he'll put the time in to skill it up.
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Omg, your mother brought you up wrong, that's what it is....
Stop taking shit out of context and asume I'm a player acting cool.
What I said was "Just lay back and watch him go", yes, but you clearly
took that sentance like; "U guys are wrong, this is easy", when I ment,
that Reko is crazy, and will spend alot of time with this guarding
stuff... Hence why I took up the Cancer-crab thingie...
Bah eff it, asume all ya want, gotta go.
Have a nice evening good sir.
 
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