Health care bill passed in house

[Linhjah]

The general idea is that we have a major area of women's healthcare -- "Twenty-two percent of all pregnancies (excluding miscarriages) end in abortion," according to the study you cited -- that is being marked off-limits for insurance coverage by the amendment. How many of them are paying out of pocket because they don't have a more affordable alternative?

If you act in an irresponsible manner, there are consequences. That includes acting sexually irresponsbile. You should be prepared to deal with the consequences yourself or you should not behave in an irresponsible manner. You should not expect society to foot the bill because you chose to do something with potentially undesirable consequences.

I smoke. I know its bad for me. I understand that lung cancer is a potential consequence. In the event I get lung cancer, I don't expect society to foot my treatment costs, and that shit would be a hell of a lot more expensive than an abortion.

As I pointed out earlier, I don't distinguish between "elective" and "medically necessary" when it comes to abortion. As far as I'm concerned, any abortion a woman wants is medically necessary because she has the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy for any reason.

(And I know religion isn't part of Dejavu's stance. However, religion is a major factor in people's feelings about abortion.)

Your definition of medical necessity differs from most I've seen.

Cigna

"Medically Necessary" or "Medical Necessity" shall mean health care services that a Healthcare Provider, exercising prudent clinical judgment, would provide to a patient for the purpose of evaluating, diagnosing or treating an illness, injury, disease or its symptoms

I don't know that pregnancy would be categorized as an illness, injury, or disease.

Medicare

Services or supplies that are needed for the diagnosis or treatment of your medical condition, meet the standards of good medical practice in the local area, and aren’t mainly for the convenience of you or your doctor.

Abortions are certainly a matter of convenience for some women who seek them. (Not that I think its the best idea for Medicare patients to get pregnant...)

American Medical Association

Health care services or procedures that a prudent physician would provide to a patient for the purpose of preventing, diagnosing, or treating an illness, injury, disease or its symptoms

Same thing as Cigna.

You make the ludicrous assertion that you *won't* be paying for that child's birth and all the medical costs of its ENTIRE LIFE. Not to mention as I stated earlier, the likely broken home from an unwanted child leading to governmental intervening such as court dates, adoption procedures, orphanage subsidiaries, and all the other costs that the taxes you already pay front the bill for.

It is entirely possibly for a pregnancy that was initially unwanted to become wanted before the end of the pregnancy or even after the birth. I personally know a lady who was raped at 15 years old, got pregnant against incredibly high odds, and kept the baby despite her initial inclination to end the pregnancy. She says it was one of the best decisions she ever made, that her daughter was a gift to balance the horrible experience she endured during her conception.

Disclaimer: I'm not bringing this up to say that women who get pregnant due to rape should have and raise the children, but to point out that there is no basis for saying you can predict what will happen in all or most cases for situations that were never allowed to happen.

You say that 600 dollars isn't that difficult for anyone to acquire in the 90 days you have to get the abortion from date of conception. I wonder how many people know they're pregnant on day 1, oh wait, that's next to 0. Especially if they had relied on contraception, via birth control and/or condoms, one wouldn't expect the initial warning signs to be pregnancy. It's not even medically reliable to check for pregnancy for the first two weeks after conception. So that cuts your 90 days down to a *minimum* of 76 days. Add in that it's usually very unexpected and played off as flu symptoms at first, that cuts that down to probably 30 days. And if you wanna say "oh but they missed their period shouldn't that give it away?", a lot of birth control options give months without menstruation either by design or hormone changes in the body.

I'm not really following here. I don't understand where the 76 days thing comes in. There are a lot of women who take a pregnancy test when they're one to two weeks late (which would be 5 to 6 weeks, or 35 to 42 days), even if the chances of being pregnant are slim. My husband had a vasectomy before we got together, but when I was 3 days late, I took a test and it was positive.

For most women, there are other signs that you're pregnant besides not having your period and eventually looking like you have a beachball under your shirt. Nausea (with or without vomiting), dizziness, fatigue, frequent urination, and abnomally tender breasts are all common symptoms, and they can start within the first month or month and a half of pregnancy. While some of those are flu symptoms, I'm not following the 30 day thing. If you're vomiting for a week straight, maybe you should go to the doctor, because that isn't normal and its obviously not going away by itself.

Given that an overwhelming amount of Americans outside of trust fund land are living paycheck to paycheck, making ends meet with pennies to spare, that 600 dollars becomes mighty hard to come by. Now also remember that a large portion of abortions fall under teen pregnancies, who may not be able to work at all. I guess the argument is "why don't their parents pay?" and it's a sound one. They would be, with taxes or insurance premiums. Most parents I know don't have 600 dollars ready for when Susie spreads her legs one too many times.

Then the question arises, what happens if they can't get that 600 dollars up in time? Do they push Susie down the stairs and hope? Do they pay the thousands of dollars it costs to have a baby, only to give it up for adoption and have it enter the government funded system? Gee, that seems efficient for tax dollars.

But I guess in your world, everyone should be required to have a savings of at least 300 dollars (two people, split evenly) in a special bank account called "Unwanted pregnancy relief fund" before they pass their "you can have sex now" licensing exam.

Maybe we should spend our money on sex education programs other than the abstinence only bullshit and Susie would have known how to prevent the pregnancy instead of asking mommy and daddy for abortion money. Hell, maybe mommy and daddy should have had a more thorough talk with Susie about what can happen when you have sex.

Let me get this straight... Women currently paying insurance premiums are deadbeats because you want them to pay even more out of pocket for a medical procedure covered by their insurance?

You have to remember that Tom is against the whole Health care bill. He's not saying pass the thing with the anti-abortion amendment, he's saying leave the stuff the way it is and let the women paying insurance premiums keep paying them and have their abortions covered if they are a covered benefit under her plan.

 

[Skaw]

No, if their PRIVATE insurance that I also happen to have also covers abortions then of course not.

You know the irony is that your paying private insurance, is still paying for other peoples procedures. Right? If your insurance policy covered abortions, by all definitions, you're supporting abortions.

 

[Tristam Green]

You know the irony is that your paying private insurance, is still paying for other peoples procedures. Right? If your insurance policy covered abortions, by all definitions, you're supporting abortions.

He does know that. It's why he added the caveat of "if I don't like it, I switch providers".

 

[Morcheeba]

Then what the hell is this?




Cradle to grave entitlements...

I believe I am entitled to a certain quality of life based on the country I live in and the taxes I pay.

And I wasn't bitching you stunned arse I was making a very simple true statement.

Judging by the amount of negative outlooks on the amount you MAY end up paying you guys ARE lucky.

Jesus, and people say I read into things too much.

 

[Elemmire]

Because I do not believe AT ALL that me not paying for it would somehow force the person to have a baby. It's the stupidest thing I have ever heard. She's either going to find a way to pay for the abortion or she's going to choose to have the kid. She's not going to have a kid because no one will lend her $300 for an abortion. NO ONE IS THAT POOR. Even people on welfare are not that broke.

And like I said before if you are that allegedly poor.... DONT HAVE VAGINAL INTERCOURSE if you can't figure out how not to get pregnant.

Again, I agree with you about people that poor and such shouldn't be having sex cause they couldn't deal with the consequences well enough but that's logical.. since WHEN has a single human on the planet been logical all the time and especially when in love (or lust, whichever)? And forcing them to have a child is punishing the child more than the adult.. I wonder if there is a better middle ground though hmm

 

[Thelona]

Again, I agree with you about people that poor and such shouldn't be having sex cause they couldn't deal with the consequences well enough but that's logical.. since WHEN has a single human on the planet been logical all the time and especially when in love (or lust, whichever)? And forcing them to have a child is punishing the child more than the adult.. I wonder if there is a better middle ground though hmm

for the last time NOONE is talking about FORCING anyone to have a baby, thats the part we don't agree on, we don't believe the woman is going to be Forced to have that baby cause we don't pay for it for her.

Taxpayer money Isn't supposed to go to elective abortions as is, and i don't see hordes of women protesting that they were "Forced" to have a baby cause noone would pay for her abortion.

 

[Elemmire]

Right.. so if they can't make up the money to have an abortion (pretty sure there's a limit cause after a certain time an abortion isn't allowed anymore) than what are they gonna do?

 

[Linhjah]

There are laws in many states preventing abortions during the third trimester unless the mother's life or health is at risk because the fetus typically achieves viability between 24 and 27 weeks.

The woman seeking an abortion can seek financial assistance from her partner, friends, and family. She can chat with the abortion provider to see if s/he will accept a discounted rate or a payment plan. She can keep the baby. She can have the baby and give it up for adoption or to a willing friend or family member.

Having society pay for an abortion because the mother is poor is not the only solution.

 

[Thelona]

If you can't afford your mortgage, what are you gonna do?
If you can't afford your car payment, what are you gonna do?
If you can't afford to keep the power on, what are you gonna do?
If you THAT dirt poor and don't have a job, you can't afford a thing, theres government assistance for that kind of situation. but you arn't (and shouldn't) gonna be getting enough to have a nice house/trailer/apartment , or a nice car, but you'll deff be getting enough to pay for an abortion, you might have to do something as drastic as *gasp* cancel you internet and cable, to pay for it. or maybe even sell all your most valuable possessions. Sorry but when you fuckup sometimes you gotta make sacrifices to fix your own fuckup, that's not "unfair" its life.


you had a CHOICE as to wether or not to have sex, you have a CHOICE to go out and bust your ass to make a few hundred bucks for an abortion. If you get pregnant and can't afford an abortion, the only person "forcing" you to have a baby is yourself.

If you can't afford your mortgage, and I don't step up and pay the bill for you, that doesn't mean I'm forcing you to lose your house. it was your choice to buy that house, and your choice as to how to go out and get the money to pay for that house.


Unexpected pregnancies happen, unexpected expenses happen, basically Shit happens. but there was a day when, when shit happened people bucked the fuck up and DEALT with it, now i guess we just blame the government and rich people and hold our hand out.

believe it or not, there was a day, when amazingly enough. A) everyone didn't fuck like rabbits outside of marriage. and B) When someone had an unexpected pregnancy they *gasp* had that child and raised it and loved it like any other child. sure, it may not have been easy, it may have been(and often was) hard as fuck. but people dealt with it. granted, that was a long time ago. but still.

Edit:: also sometimes an abortion fails, what then?

Shit happens, people gotta deal with it, and sometimes theres noone to blame but yourself. or maybe even just shitty luck. it happens, its the truth, you can't wish it away cause its so ugly, you just gotta face it and deal with it.

 

[Elemmire]

Yes yes you people I get that.. but if you're bitching so much about money you do realize it costs MORE to have the people have the child and then it gets added to the welfare cost.. RIGHT?! >.> and I'd rather encourage abortions than children being raised poorly and being a further drain from the planet's resources and the economy.

 

[Dejavu]

We could also abort the parents... 2 birds with one stone as it were.

 

[Elemmire]

I wouldn't shed any tears over it

 

[Thelona]

really this whole thread reminds me of a quote from Benjamin Franklin

Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom. as nations become corrupt and vicious, they have more need of masters.

 

[Taurothar]

Yes yes you people I get that.. but if you're bitching so much about money you do realize it costs MORE to have the people have the child and then it gets added to the welfare cost.. RIGHT?! >.> and I'd rather encourage abortions than children being raised poorly and being a further drain from the planet's resources and the economy.

And this is my argument simply summed up. I'm not gonna argue with you about morals, only logic. Logically if your *only* gripe is where your dollars are being spent, then you simply do not understand math. If your gripe extends into moral grounds of "you made your bed, now lie in it or fix it yourself" then you must remove *all* governmental support of underprivileged society. In addition to that you must remove the tax exemption for non-profit businesses that help out people who are underprivileged, including planned parenthood which provides the largest percent of abortions in the country. Problem solved right?

Oh and remove unemployment, medicare, social security, and welfare while you're at it and watch the country that has become dependent on social services descend into almost third world status as people starve to death in the streets when they can't pay for food, let alone a place to live or proper health care. Hospitals will be forced to turn away sick people when they don't have the cash up front to pay for it, since they obviously don't have insurance. I'm not saying this would all be a bad thing, as we all know survival of the fittest. All them janitors and garbage truck drivers can just die off and leave the good life to those in charge with all the money. Oh wait, who would clean up their filth?

And once again, no, in today's economy, it's not "easy" for *anyone* to come up with 600 dollars, if they didn't already have it. Minimum wage jobs are all you can get in a rush, which at best give 400 dollars a week if you can manage to get full time hours. Most of those jobs are only 15 hours a week, trust me I just spent 6 months fighting off of unemployment after Circuit City went out. I applied at virtually everywhere possible, and with a stellar work history. Hours are cut everywhere, even in the holiday season it's more difficult than it has been in decades to find a job, let alone a well paying job. I guess we're all not "working hard enough".

 

[Thelona]

And this is my argument simply summed up. I'm not gonna argue with you about morals, only logic. Logically if your *only* gripe is where your dollars are being spent, then you simply do not understand math. If your gripe extends into moral grounds of "you made your bed, now lie in it or fix it yourself" then you must remove *all* governmental support of underprivileged society. In addition to that you must remove the tax exemption for non-profit businesses that help out people who are underprivileged, including planned parenthood which provides the largest percent of abortions in the country. Problem solved right?

Oh and remove unemployment, medicare, social security, and welfare while you're at it and watch the country that has become dependent on social services descend into almost third world status as people starve to death in the streets when they can't pay for food, let alone a place to live or proper health care. Hospitals will be forced to turn away sick people when they don't have the cash up front to pay for it, since they obviously don't have insurance. I'm not saying this would all be a bad thing, as we all know survival of the fittest. All them janitors and garbage truck drivers can just die off and leave the good life to those in charge with all the money. Oh wait, who would clean up their filth?

And once again, no, in today's economy, it's not "easy" for *anyone* to come up with 600 dollars, if they didn't already have it. Minimum wage jobs are all you can get in a rush, which at best give 400 dollars a week if you can manage to get full time hours. Most of those jobs are only 15 hours a week, trust me I just spent 6 months fighting off of unemployment after Circuit City went out. I applied at virtually everywhere possible, and with a stellar work history. Hours are cut everywhere, even in the holiday season it's more difficult than it has been in decades to find a job, let alone a well paying job. I guess we're all not "working hard enough".

that makes no sense whatsoever, by your logic, theres gotta be absolutely zero government assistance or programs. or total socialism and no inbetween

and then you paint a big long picture like those who dont want there to be free abortion want poor people starving and dieing in the streets!

Give me a break.

all that was, was a giant bleeding heart whinefest. and besides this bill doesn't ban private insurance coverage of abortions it bans coverage of elective abortions by the government option.

so you'll still have your coverage of abortion on private insurance, hell knowing the market if there that big enough of a demand they'll be "abortion insurance" 25 bucks a month and you get abortion on demand.

oh wait, thats right the dems made the bill designed specifically to KILL all private insurance, whoops looks like its your own guys screwing you on this one.

Edit:: also I'd like to point out that many people's stance on the issue, isnt a from a logical money saving standpoint OR a "you made you bed lie in it yourself".

alot of people issue with it is the fact that they don't want to be FORCED to pay for peoples abortions. Believe it or not some people believe *gasp* abortion is killing an innocent life. and no matter how "naive" or "ignorant" or w/e you may think that is, its their right to oppose it.

 

[Linhjah]

And this is my argument simply summed up. I'm not gonna argue with you about morals, only logic. Logically if your *only* gripe is where your dollars are being spent, then you simply do not understand math. If your gripe extends into moral grounds of "you made your bed, now lie in it or fix it yourself" then you must remove *all* governmental support of underprivileged society. In addition to that you must remove the tax exemption for non-profit businesses that help out people who are underprivileged, including planned parenthood which provides the largest percent of abortions in the country. Problem solved right?

Oh and remove unemployment, medicare, social security, and welfare while you're at it and watch the country that has become dependent on social services descend into almost third world status as people starve to death in the streets when they can't pay for food, let alone a place to live or proper health care. Hospitals will be forced to turn away sick people when they don't have the cash up front to pay for it, since they obviously don't have insurance. I'm not saying this would all be a bad thing, as we all know survival of the fittest. All them janitors and garbage truck drivers can just die off and leave the good life to those in charge with all the money. Oh wait, who would clean up their filth?

Call me callous, but I'm totally fine with doing away with unemployment and welfare. While there are genuinely needy people out there that can use the assistance, these programs are abused as often as not. I don't like helping those who aren't willing to help themselves. There are many people who would much rather hold out their hand and wait for you to provide for them instead of doing something themselves to improve their own situation. I find it difficult to feel sympathy when those type of individuals don't have their needs met.

Medicare and Social Security are totally different than welfare and unemployment. Most of the people who draw those benefits have paid the FICA tax the to support the OASDI and Medicare programs. People have been paying for Social Security benefits since the New Deal, and for Medicare since the 1960s.

And once again, no, in today's economy, it's not "easy" for *anyone* to come up with 600 dollars, if they didn't already have it. Minimum wage jobs are all you can get in a rush, which at best give 400 dollars a week if you can manage to get full time hours. Most of those jobs are only 15 hours a week, trust me I just spent 6 months fighting off of unemployment after Circuit City went out. I applied at virtually everywhere possible, and with a stellar work history. Hours are cut everywhere, even in the holiday season it's more difficult than it has been in decades to find a job, let alone a well paying job. I guess we're all not "working hard enough".

Certain areas have been hit harder than others with the current economic situation, and I'm sorry you're having difficulty.

Either way, you not having the money to pay for your abortion doesn't make it society's problem. Paying $600 for an abortion isn't the only solution to the problem. While it may be the most desirable solution, you don't always get what you want. Sometimes just have to make do with the things you have to work with, just like in every other area of life.

 

[Taurothar]

My post was almost entirely directed at Tomasello's attitude on the situation, and not an overall statement of how things should be run. I'm not saying we SHOULD be giving out free abortions, or that we SHOULD get rid of all socialized systems. I'm stating that with the logic he's using, there's both the very obvious slippery slope argument and the simple argument of raw dollar amounts. I never once made it a moral issue.

My actual view on abortions is in fact one of opposition of their use for birth control. I firmly believe that if you're dumb enough to get pregnant when there's readily available methods for just about everyone to reduce those chances to something like 1/300,000 (read: a lot of sex), then you should grow up and raise that kid to not make the same for themselves or give it to someone who would.

I'm wholeheartedly against the idea of government *required* health insurance. I can barely afford to live off my part time salary as it is, let alone pay a monthly or quarterly premium to an insurance company. And if I don't, I'll get fined more money I don't have? When I can't pay that, I go to jail? Who thought that genius idea was gonna work in this economy? You want me to have health insurance, stop giving bailouts to the jackasses that can afford it, and give that money to me. (as I stated in a previous thread, the total corporate bailout money to each and *every* individual in the US would have been split evenly at just under thirty thousand dollars apiece)

I'm of the mind that the whole government needs a kick in the ass. What they are pushing through has absolutely 0 to do with what we the people want. Capital hill is corrupt with too many special interest groups and lobbyists to represent the average American anymore. Just imagine how much different this country would be if intelligent minds ran it. If the government invested a *fraction* of the funds it does on making sure the CEO of Sallie Mae (not to be confused with Fannie Mae, I'm talking the student loan corp) gets his bonus at the end of the year, on things like restructuring an archaic education system or giving some of those dollars spent making sure big pharmaceutical puts out enough "flu vaccine" each year on actually *curing* something this century. Just think of how much your insurance premiums would drop if there was actually a cure for diabetes alone. Think that might be a better use for tax dollars than forced "healthcare"?

 

[Elemmire]

alot of people issue with it is the fact that they don't want to be FORCED to pay for peoples abortions. Believe it or not some people believe *gasp* abortion is killing an innocent life. and no matter how "naive" or "ignorant" or w/e you may think that is, its their right to oppose it.

A lot in this thread (not saying all, I know a few did) didn't say that was their problem. And if so, fine. But even if it was a life, I still would rather it be ended earlier before it's born than being raised poorly and becoming a problem for society :\ as heartless as it is, I kinda look at it "nearly 7 billion humans.. the world can only support 3 billion in terms of jobs available and resources if we wanted everyone to work comfortably. Something needs to happen". I'd more prefer killing off criminals, unwanted preborn fetuses that'd be raised poorly anyways, and then cutting everyone to trying to have only 1 maybe 2 children at most (kinda how India and China are doing iirc). But ah well. If we could colonize other worlds it wouldn't be so bad, but seeing how we treat our own planet I don't think we should go fuck up others until we learn how to take care of one.

Just imagine how much different any country would be if intelligent minds ran it.

fixed <3

 

[Keryan]

For the moron who says the heart is formed at 18 days....get pregnant and watch that heart stop beating on the monitor like I did. I lost TWINS at 14 weeks. Just because you get pregnant, there is not 100% assurance you will have a live baby. People who claim a fetus is alive at that stage should be sterlized so not to breed more people like them. My brother wife carried daughters to 6 months along and was forced to abort them when the ultrasound showed that they were missing vital organs. MIND YOU they had a heart beat. What about baby Terrisa who was born with only a brain stem? Her heart sure was beating, but the body was just a functional mindless thing that died because it could not grow. Maybe you should ponder what makes something alive.

FYI I have had 6 pregnancies and of them only 4 live births. I did not even look pregnant at 9 months. I am not fat, I just carried on my back. I did not have any nausea. With 3 of the pregnancies I slept more. The other 3 I was doing my usual things. You would never have known I was pregnant. I skip cycles, so waiting that 28 days and going hmmmm I am late when you KNOW you skip does not mean so much. My sister, my mother and I all got pregnant while using birth control.

Now lets get to the real issues. This bill does not even have guidlines for what the "base line" insurance will be. Those who have insurance will be double taxed. They are paying for theirs, then added on that taxes to pay for the government one. So they are paying for TWO insurances while having access to just one. Of those 30 million without......Take out the illegals, take out the people who CAN but won't buy and you have about 7 million. So we have a bill that is not easily understood, which will not do what majority of the people want. It will run well over the allowed money, and is not in anyway defiecit neutral.

NEWS FLASH!!!! Our enemies are telling us we are spending way too much.....our friends are saying we are spending way too much....we getting the hint?????

How about we pass a bill where the USA will not give a dime to any country unless we are in the black. How much more could we put to fixing our country if we stopped passing out money to every nation that asks.

I am PRO choice by gods grace. Most women find abortion a tough choice. MOST do not use it as an easy out. We have to live with it for the rest of our lives. Not you, not the sperm providers, the women. If a man wants to keep a pregnancy, then let him carry it. Being pregnant is infact a life threatening situation. The mothers body actually attacks the fetuses. It is why they watch the Rh factor. High blood pressure, stroke, increase bacterial infection, bleeding out, siezures, blood clots on legs/arms/lungs just to name a few dangers assocated with pregnancy. Some women have been hospitalized just from severe morning sickness. Throwing up to the point they are mal nurished and deydrated. The stresses on the body stay forever. The hips actually fan open. it does not go back. You can lotion up everyday and still wind up with zebra stripes from pregnacy. So when the man will go through being pregnant, then he can have a say if a woman keeps a baby. It is not his life he is risking. Forcing her to keep the baby to term is like holding a loaded gun to her head. For you bleeding hearts out there, stress and emotions effect the fetus YEARS after it is born. Personally if the government pays for it or not, it will not increase the amount of abortions.

The bill does not fix anything. Chuck it out and get real people to work on it. Who knows maybe it will have real fixes. Also people vote out all your current seanators and congressmen who vote for this bill. IF they gave a flying F#@k about you, they would have demanded it be understandable by everyone. They would have listened to all of you and worked together. They did not sdo kick them out and put people in office who will actually do the job.

 

[Linhjah]

For the moron who says the heart is formed at 18 days....get pregnant and watch that heart stop beating on the monitor like I did. I lost TWINS at 14 weeks. Just because you get pregnant, there is not 100% assurance you will have a live baby. People who claim a fetus is alive at that stage should be sterlized so not to breed more people like them. My brother wife carried daughters to 6 months along and was forced to abort them when the ultrasound showed that they were missing vital organs. MIND YOU they had a heart beat. What about baby Terrisa who was born with only a brain stem? Her heart sure was beating, but the body was just a functional mindless thing that died because it could not grow. Maybe you should ponder what makes something alive.

FYI I have had 6 pregnancies and of them only 4 live births. I did not even look pregnant at 9 months. I am not fat, I just carried on my back. I did not have any nausea. With 3 of the pregnancies I slept more. The other 3 I was doing my usual things. You would never have known I was pregnant. I skip cycles, so waiting that 28 days and going hmmmm I am late when you KNOW you skip does not mean so much. My sister, my mother and I all got pregnant while using birth control.

Now lets get to the real issues. This bill does not even have guidlines for what the "base line" insurance will be. Those who have insurance will be double taxed. They are paying for theirs, then added on that taxes to pay for the government one. So they are paying for TWO insurances while having access to just one. Of those 30 million without......Take out the illegals, take out the people who CAN but won't buy and you have about 7 million. So we have a bill that is not easily understood, which will not do what majority of the people want. It will run well over the allowed money, and is not in anyway defiecit neutral.

NEWS FLASH!!!! Our enemies are telling us we are spending way too much.....our friends are saying we are spending way too much....we getting the hint?????

How about we pass a bill where the USA will not give a dime to any country unless we are in the black. How much more could we put to fixing our country if we stopped passing out money to every nation that asks.

I am PRO choice by gods grace. Most women find abortion a tough choice. MOST do not use it as an easy out. We have to live with it for the rest of our lives. Not you, not the sperm providers, the women. If a man wants to keep a pregnancy, then let him carry it. Being pregnant is infact a life threatening situation. The mothers body actually attacks the fetuses. It is why they watch the Rh factor. High blood pressure, stroke, increase bacterial infection, bleeding out, siezures, blood clots on legs/arms/lungs just to name a few dangers assocated with pregnancy. Some women have been hospitalized just from severe morning sickness. Throwing up to the point they are mal nurished and deydrated. The stresses on the body stay forever. The hips actually fan open. it does not go back. You can lotion up everyday and still wind up with zebra stripes from pregnacy. So when the man will go through being pregnant, then he can have a say if a woman keeps a baby. It is not his life he is risking. Forcing her to keep the baby to term is like holding a loaded gun to her head. For you bleeding hearts out there, stress and emotions effect the fetus YEARS after it is born. Personally if the government pays for it or not, it will not increase the amount of abortions.

The bill does not fix anything. Chuck it out and get real people to work on it. Who knows maybe it will have real fixes. Also people vote out all your current seanators and congressmen who vote for this bill. IF they gave a flying F#@k about you, they would have demanded it be understandable by everyone. They would have listened to all of you and worked together. They did not sdo kick them out and put people in office who will actually do the job.

I don't see a stream of men in here saying women shouldn't be allowed abortions. Repeatedly those against the amendment (both men and women) state that whether or not the woman has the abortion is not the issue, its that they don't want to pay for it. I've not seen one person say that abortion is an easy decision. People have to make tough decisions every day about a number of things, both men and women. Those same men and women have to live with their tough choices.

Your symptoms (or lack thereof) are the exception and not the rule. The fact that you, your sister, and your mother got pregnant while on birth control doesn't diminish its statistical, scientifically proven effectiveness. The only birth control that is 100% effective is abstinence. You run the risk of getting pregnant if you have sex. Period. You should take steps to reduce that risk with some sort of birth control if you are intent on screwing but don't want to get pregnant. But if you do get pregnant - even if you used the pill, a condom, and the guy had a vasectomy 5 months ago - you must recognize that is a consequence of your choice to have sex.

If you don't understand that sex has potential negative consequences and prepare yourself (whether that means using a condom, going to get tested for STDs with your partner, keeping up with your depo shot, being financially stable enough to support a child or an abortion, or all of the above), its best for you to not have sex because its likely you will just wind up in an undesirable situation.

Don't cry to me about not wanting spread hips or stretch marks. Vanity of that level is ridiculous. Its part of being pregnant and always has been. If that is the woman's sole motivation for an abortion, I pity her because its tragic if those superficial are the most important part of someone's life.

As far as the more significant health concerns about being pregnant, studies have shown that in developed regions (such as the USA, UK, and Australia) that there are an average of 9 maternal deaths (defined as "the death of a woman while pregnant or within 42 days of termination of pregnancy, irrespective of the duration and site of the pregnancy, from any cause related to or aggravated by the pregnancy or its management but not from accidental or incidental causes) per 100,000 live births. That's 0.009%. Yes, the risk is significantly higher in under-developed countries, but we're talking about a bill in America, so I'm not going down that road.

Most of the things you listed are risks that have little to nothing to do with pregnancy. While pregnancy can complicate pre-existing conditions and lead to those things, so can any number of other things, from falling down your front steps to being at a party with strobe lights.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say that a woman's body attacks the fetus. That is the opposite of the truth aside from very small number of cases.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070421212932.htm
http://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=281
http://www.womenshealthresearch.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5334&news_iv_ctrl=0&abbr=press_

It sounds like you've been personally exposed to a lot of the potentially negative aspects of pregnancy, and that must have been horrible for you and your family. Please understand those things are not common or even likely in most cases, though.

I completely agree that this bill is not a smart financial move. Its been quite awhile since I've seen a smart financial move out of the Federal Government, though, so I can't say I'm surprised there.

There are so many people who have passionate opinions on this bill, both for and against, who really don't know the first thing about it, and I find that hilarious.

Like the lady who wrote a letter to my company saying that she was going to send our bill and her other bills directly to President Obama so he could do something about it because its outrageous that she's billed that much. She said she can't wait for the bill to pass because it means that she won't be charged that much anymore. (By the way, I do medical billing for ER docs, and ER treatment is expensive as shit for those that don't know.)

This same lady has been treated in the ER 5 times within the past 3 months for issues ranging from a suspected migraine to an acute respiratory infection - nothing life threatening. She has managed to have more than 95% of her bills for those visits written off as charity. Not only does she not see that she (and people like her) are the reason the ER is so damned expensive, she doesn't see that the bill would make healthcare more expensive for her because she'd have to pay the fine or carry insurance, and paying just the deductible and co-pay, let alone any premiums, is more costly than what she actually had to pay for those visits.

So many people take hearsay and speculation as fact its just sad.