Health care bill passed in house

[Cort]

As I pointed out earlier, I don't distinguish between "elective" and "medically necessary" when it comes to abortion. As far as I'm concerned, any abortion a woman wants is medically necessary because she has the right to choose to terminate a pregnancy for any reason.

(And I know religion isn't part of Dejavu's stance. However, religion is a major factor in people's feelings about abortion.)

Foaming at the mouth atheist here. The heart forms in 18~ days. What do you consider a life? Or do you disregard the right to life?

Biologically speaking, a fetus is alive.

Although, this isn't a decision for the Federal Government.

Spoiler:

FYI: I'm not anti-abortion. The man who made one half of that child should have a say, however.

I'll get back to you.

I figured.

 

[Thelona]

As I pointed out earlier, I don't distinguish between "elective" and "medically necessary" when it comes to abortion.

Well obviously theres plenty of people who do, otherwise it wouldn't be an issue.


btw if stupak gets taken out that'll just kill the bill faster, the blue dogs and red state dems aren't gonna wanna touch it with a tenfoot pole.

 

[Mattaru]

I figured.

You're right Patrick Henry scared me away with his hefty masculine musk. I'll get back to you.

 

[Taurothar]

I already pay now for the woman with no insurance to have babies so what's the difference. When's the last time you heard of a pregnant woman getting turned away from a hospital?

This is all about money. You want to pass a law that make the guy pay for 50% of the abortion. I don't care but don't make me pay for it.

Men don't get pregnant but they also don't get a choice. Single dads are completely capable of taking care of a baby but they have no say in the matter if a woman wants to abort. Why a baby has to be killed, if you have a man willing to love and nurture the child, because the woman doesn't want to be inconvienced with labor is a tragedy in itself.

I'm sorry but with your same logic, men should be able to insist they want the woman to have an abortion, and if she doesn't, they are relieved of responsibility in child support.

Abortion being covered reduces the number of full term unwanted pregnancies which result in unfit households or babies put up for adoption that will further suckle on our tax dollars. Saying you don't want to pay taxes that go toward abortions simply means you want to pay MORE taxes to have that kid live in an orphanage waiting to be adopted.

I don't really mind them forcing me to get health insurance if they're willing to front the bill. I cannot afford it, not one penny. I made rent this month by roughly 5 dollars left in my bank account, and it's not for lack of trying to secure a more lucrative job or one that provides benefits. I'm also not spending my money in frivolous ways, purely what I need to survive. How do they expect me to front health insurance bill?

 

[Tomasello]

Yeah, "god" forbid. One of the reasons people buy insurance is to help cover the costs of medical procedures, and abortion is one service covered by a lot of private insurance. I don't know how much money you make, but $600 is a fair chunk out of my budget and I'd rather insurance handle it. I'm hardly the only one, considering the backlash against Stupak.

You keep making this ridiculous assertion that the “insurance” will pay for it. Who do you think is going to pay the premiums? The 30 million deadbeats that are going to be covered automatically if this passes? They can’t even afford private insurance now.

It’s like when people run around saying “don’t worry, the government will pay for it”. Who the hell do you think the government is? It’s me and the 50% of the country that actually pay the god damn taxes so the other 50% can sit at home watching Judge Joe and eating Doritos.

No people like me who already have private insurance are going to be taxed to pay for an elective procedure. You like abortion on demand so much you pay for it.

All I have to say is you guys are lucky you don't pay half the taxes we pay.

Why do you think that is??????? Take a wild guess **cough**massive government programs **cough**. Liberalism and the redistribution of wealth is killing your country.

Abortion being covered reduces the number of full term unwanted pregnancies which result in unfit households or babies put up for adoption that will further suckle on our tax dollars. Saying you don't want to pay taxes that go toward abortions simply means you want to pay MORE taxes to have that kid live in an orphanage waiting to be adopted.

Again you make the completely ludicrous assertion that if I don’t pay for it all these people won’t be able to afford to have a $600 procedure which is completely FALSE. They can pay for it, it’s not that expense even for people on welfare who in this country live better than the middle class in most other countries.

 

[Halifirien]

You keep making this ridiculous assertion that the “insurance” will pay for it.

There are many private insurance policies that do. That's what I've been talking about.

 

[Morcheeba]

Why do you think that is??????? Take a wild guess **cough**massive government programs **cough**. Liberalism and the redistribution of wealth is killing your country.

Killing my country? Right. We're drowning here, we're the one's screaming at the roof tops..

I'm not bitching about the taxes I pay. While you guys are bitching about the taxes you might pay when it still doesn't add up. Shut up already

 

[Taurothar]

Again you make the completely ludicrous assertion that if I don’t pay for it all these people won’t be able to afford to have a $600 procedure which is completely FALSE. They can pay for it, it’s not that expense even for people on welfare who in this country live better than the middle class in most other countries.

You make the ludicrous assertion that you *won't* be paying for that child's birth and all the medical costs of its ENTIRE LIFE. Not to mention as I stated earlier, the likely broken home from an unwanted child leading to governmental intervening such as court dates, adoption procedures, orphanage subsidiaries, and all the other costs that the taxes you already pay front the bill for.

You say that 600 dollars isn't that difficult for anyone to acquire in the 90 days you have to get the abortion from date of conception. I wonder how many people know they're pregnant on day 1, oh wait, that's next to 0. Especially if they had relied on contraception, via birth control and/or condoms, one wouldn't expect the initial warning signs to be pregnancy. It's not even medically reliable to check for pregnancy for the first two weeks after conception. So that cuts your 90 days down to a *minimum* of 76 days. Add in that it's usually very unexpected and played off as flu symptoms at first, that cuts that down to probably 30 days. And if you wanna say "oh but they missed their period shouldn't that give it away?", a lot of birth control options give months without menstruation either by design or hormone changes in the body.

Given that an overwhelming amount of Americans outside of trust fund land are living paycheck to paycheck, making ends meet with pennies to spare, that 600 dollars becomes mighty hard to come by. Now also remember that a large portion of abortions fall under teen pregnancies, who may not be able to work at all. I guess the argument is "why don't their parents pay?" and it's a sound one. They would be, with taxes or insurance premiums. Most parents I know don't have 600 dollars ready for when Susie spreads her legs one too many times.

Then the question arises, what happens if they can't get that 600 dollars up in time? Do they push Susie down the stairs and hope? Do they pay the thousands of dollars it costs to have a baby, only to give it up for adoption and have it enter the government funded system? Gee, that seems efficient for tax dollars.

But I guess in your world, everyone should be required to have a savings of at least 300 dollars (two people, split evenly) in a special bank account called "Unwanted pregnancy relief fund" before they pass their "you can have sex now" licensing exam.

 

[Dejavu]

You make the ludicrous assertion that you *won't* be paying for that child's birth and all the medical costs of its ENTIRE LIFE. Not to mention as I stated earlier, the likely broken home from an unwanted child leading to governmental intervening such as court dates, adoption procedures, orphanage subsidiaries, and all the other costs that the taxes you already pay front the bill for.

You say that 600 dollars isn't that difficult for anyone to acquire in the 90 days you have to get the abortion from date of conception. I wonder how many people know they're pregnant on day 1, oh wait, that's next to 0. Especially if they had relied on contraception, via birth control and/or condoms, one wouldn't expect the initial warning signs to be pregnancy. It's not even medically reliable to check for pregnancy for the first two weeks after conception. So that cuts your 90 days down to a *minimum* of 76 days. Add in that it's usually very unexpected and played off as flu symptoms at first, that cuts that down to probably 30 days. And if you wanna say "oh but they missed their period shouldn't that give it away?", a lot of birth control options give months without menstruation either by design or hormone changes in the body.

Given that an overwhelming amount of Americans outside of trust fund land are living paycheck to paycheck, making ends meet with pennies to spare, that 600 dollars becomes mighty hard to come by. Now also remember that a large portion of abortions fall under teen pregnancies, who may not be able to work at all. I guess the argument is "why don't their parents pay?" and it's a sound one. They would be, with taxes or insurance premiums. Most parents I know don't have 600 dollars ready for when Susie spreads her legs one too many times.

Then the question arises, what happens if they can't get that 600 dollars up in time? Do they push Susie down the stairs and hope? Do they pay the thousands of dollars it costs to have a baby, only to give it up for adoption and have it enter the government funded system? Gee, that seems efficient for tax dollars.

But I guess in your world, everyone should be required to have a savings of at least 300 dollars (two people, split evenly) in a special bank account called "Unwanted pregnancy relief fund" before they pass their "you can have sex now" licensing exam.

Here what we should do is have post birth abortion. Let the bitch who cant keep her legs together have the kid then its .. 500 abortions for 120 dollars assuming 1 well placed 9mm shot should do the job to a baby. I wouldn't mind paying my share of 24 cents per abortion.

Also in regards to the earlier statement about child support if the dad signs something saying he wants to cut all ties to the kid and the chick should have an abortion then he shouldnt have to pay child support. Also if the woman wants to have an abortion or lose all rights to the kid and the guy is against it he should be able to take it solo without the girl responsible for support also.

 

[Elemmire]

Here's a small blurp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_economies



I knew we paid substantially more.. but w.e. I'm used to not being believed.

I never said I didn't believe you XD I just told you what I knew. I never doubted I could be wrong.

Why do you think that is??????? Take a wild guess **cough**massive government programs **cough**. Liberalism and the redistribution of wealth is killing your country.

Ya cause the richest 10% have 71% of the nation's wealth (top 1% has 38% where as the lowest 40% don't even control 1%) as well as controlling EVERYTHING for the rest of the 90% is so great right?! The United States could use a little redistribution of wealth and power -_- you need millions just to even get in a position of any power in our government. The United States is fucked in so many ways too. And don't give me that "those top pay for a lot" true, but the proportional amount they pay compared to people lower than them is utter bullshit (say comparing them to the middle class). Furthermore, the bullshit that their stocks don't get taxed? Why? Why is money that's so hard earned like someone barely making by while they work at some restaurant or construction or educator or something and their work gets taxed when they're generally doing good for the community where as the dood who's got assload of money to spare to put into a gamble doesn't get taxed at all? Ya, fantastic.

 

[Tomasello]

There are many private insurance policies that do. That's what I've been talking about.

What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? If I don't like what a private insurance policy covers I simply switch policies. Everyone also pays the say premium to the insurance company (assuming excellent health, same age group etc.)

The Obama "insurance" plan, if you can even call it that, just sounds like another form of welfare to me, puts a gun to my head and says, "your gonna pay for this policy to cover other people screw ups whether you like it our not and youra lso going to pay for people who can't afford it". A trillion dollars for this??? Some plan....

I'm not bitching about the taxes I pay.

Then what the hell is this?

All I have to say is you guys are lucky you don't pay half the taxes we pay.

Cradle to grave entitlements...

You make the ludicrous assertion that you *won't* be paying for that child's birth and all the medical costs of its ENTIRE LIFE.

I already do that now, I don't need socialized medicine for that.

You say that 600 dollars isn't that difficult for anyone to acquire in the 90 days you have to get the abortion from date of conception.

Two people to acquire, 300 each, unless the guy your fucking is a total asshole and won't pay in which case maybe you shouldn't be so stupid to fuck him in the first place.

Given that an overwhelming amount of Americans outside of trust fund land are living paycheck to paycheck, making ends meet with pennies to spare, that 600 dollars becomes mighty hard to come by. Now also remember that a large portion of abortions fall under teen pregnancies, who may not be able to work at all. I guess the argument is "why don't their parents pay?" and it's a sound one. They would be, with taxes or insurance premiums. Most parents I know don't have 600 dollars ready for when Susie spreads her legs one too many times.

The parents can could pay as you said, little Susie could get a fucking job at McDonalds part time and save up for her abortion, they take Visa or Mastercard maybe she could put it on a credit card they gave me 3 with no credit history when I turned 18, she could collect cans from the highway redeem them for 5 cents each, or maybe the loser she'd fucking could throw in a few bucks or his parents. I really don't give a shit, all I know is with proper fucking motivation, 99.99% of people can come up with the money for a fucking abortion.

But I guess in your world, everyone should be required to have a savings of at least 300 dollars (two people, split evenly) in a special bank account called "Unwanted pregnancy relief fund" before they pass their "you can have sex now" licensing exam.

In my world, people would FIX THEIR OWN FUCKING PROBLEMS and not hit up tax payors like me for money who aren't stupid enough to knock somebody on accident then have the nerve to ask for a hand out. There would be one question on the "you can have sex now" licensing exam:

1) Are you a complete fucking deadbeat loser who can't afford to pay for your own abortion? Yes or No

 

[Elemmire]

Tom... you HONESTLY think guys don't lie to girls a lot? That they play the nice guy and once they screw they leave, but the girl gets stuck with being pregnant? Honestly... things aren't always black and white (funny coming from me since I've been told many times I have a black and white mentality XD). Seriously.. the "unless the guy your fucking is a total asshole and won't pay in which case maybe you should be so stupid to fuck him in the first place." doesn't exactly work cause a lot of guys are deceptive for just a fuck so many I know who fell for it.. and they even waited a good several months or more before letting em get that close and once they did, bam, gone. So stupid..

And I honestly would love if people could fix their own problems. I try as hard as I can to fix my own. But sometimes people CAN'T fix their own problems due to the world around them in some way or something. It isn't ALWAYS their entire fault when things go wrong and they can't fix it (granted, with the way our society is going, prolly ya, more and more are getting lazy at trying)

Btw, why should the parents have to pay? What if they had died? Or what if the person is over 25 (kinda stupid parents have to be accountable for their kids up to 25 and yet at 16 kids can legally drop school and leave home) and the parents just refuse cause of the bad relationship or something? Or, what if, most likely, because people don't get outta their family's social status anymore so easily.. the parents are also going pay check to pay check and have no money to afford?

If we want to look at it at pure statistics and numbers and such.. Taur is right. It's cheaper for others to chip in and abort the child rather than make them keep going with it where it comes out, adoptions happen or welfare anyways comes in for the child for the mother and child cause the mother can't clearly even pay for that how can she afford a child? And I bet a lot of abortions are done by people where the man left.. so can't pay. Even not at pure statistics and numbers... having more children like that more often than not leaves them to being raised poorly and contributing to the detrimental effects of our society. It's better for society as a whole to keep that from happening anyways.

 

[Tomasello]

Ya cause the richest 10% have 71% of the nation's wealth (top 1% has 38% where as the lowest 40% don't even control 1%) as well as controlling EVERYTHING for the rest of the 90% is so great right?! The United States could use a little redistribution of wealth and power -_- you need millions just to even get in a position of any power in our government. The United States is fucked in so many ways too. And don't give me that "those top pay for a lot" true, but the proportional amount they pay compared to people lower than them is utter bullshit (say comparing them to the middle class). Furthermore, the bullshit that their stocks don't get taxed? Why? Why is money that's so hard earned like someone barely making by while they work at some restaurant or construction or educator or something and their work gets taxed when they're generally doing good for the community where as the dood who's got assload of money to spare to put into a gamble doesn't get taxed at all? Ya, fantastic.

First off wth are you talking about people's stocks not getting taxed? They get taxed when they cash them in for a profit. It's called Capital Gains try looking on Schedule D on a tax return sometime.

Anybody in America can become rich if they apply themselves. Anybody.... They are thousands of rags to riches storys. Bill Gates, Martha Stewart, Oprah etc. all these people grew up just like you and now their billionaires. Obviously, not everyone can be rich but anyone can be if they play there cards right.

Go to Cuba if you don't like capitialism see how they're doing.....

 

[Elemmire]

Anybody? Anybody? lol, doubtful. It was better earlier in the US history but it's been getting worse.. Warren Buffet (he's part of the top 10%) where he said "There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning." -New York Times, November 26, 2006.

Sure there have been a few "Rags to riches" stories but let's compare that to the vast total of people ever in the US... what do you think the percentage would be? I bet you it's not as high as you would think. This country has.. a lot of problems.. and I blame both sides :\ the liberals and the conservatives.

 

[Tomasello]

Btw, why should the parents have to pay? What if they had died? Or what if the person is over 25 (kinda stupid parents have to be accountable for their kids up to 25 and yet at 16 kids can legally drop school and leave home) and the parents just refuse cause of the bad relationship or something? Or, what if, most likely, because people don't get outta their family's social status anymore so easily.. the parents are also going pay check to pay check and have no money to afford?

So the parent shouldn't??? Why should I have to pay? Abortions aren't $10,000 or something. ITS NOT A LOT OF MONEY. I would bet my house 99.99% of people could pay for it. Even if they have to sell their ps3 or xbox, whatever... It's $300-$600, so why the fuck should I "chip in" to pay 1.5 million of them? Save me the sob story it's a bunch of crap. Short of being homeless and living under a bridge, stop fucking whining, and pony up the money.

 

[Tomasello]

Anybody? Anybody? lol, doubtful.

Anybody with half a brain and willing to work like a dog. I personally know high school drop outs who make 6 figures because they're wiling to WORK FOR IT.

The problem is nobody wants to work, they want EVERYTHING handed to them (including abortions now), and rather than looking in the damn mirror for someone to blame for their pathetic lives its so much easier to blame "the man".

 

[Halifirien]

The problem is nobody wants to work, they want EVERYTHING handed to them (including abortions now)...

Let me get this straight... Women currently paying insurance premiums are deadbeats because you want them to pay even more out of pocket for a medical procedure covered by their insurance?

 

[Elemmire]

So the parent shouldn't??? Why should I have to pay? Abortions aren't $10,000 or something. ITS NOT A LOT OF MONEY. I would bet my house 99.99% of people could pay for it. Even if they have to sell their ps3 or xbox, whatever... It's $300-$600, so why the fuck should I "chip in" to pay 1.5 million of them? Save me the sob story it's a bunch of crap. Short of being homeless and living under a bridge, stop fucking whining, and pony up the money.

Do you... seriously think that everyone who gets pregnant seriously has enough money for every frivolous things or expensive frivolous things? I doubt it... and those who do should be forced to pay for it themselves, I'll agree.. but there are many who don't who have. I just don't get you.. why do you want to pay for the welfare of mother and child for probably at best 15-16 years costing FAR MORE rather than be the 1 cent toward the abortion (at most)

And as I said, the parents shouldn't have to ALWAYS account for their child's fuck ups.. specially if their child ran off earlier on them anyways. I still think it's ridiculous that there's that whole "parents cover up to age 25 but they can leave and be on their own at 16.. wut?" Sure good parents should always cover, but I'll bet MANY of the parents can't cause they're probably in the same social class as the child and barely making enough money themselves.

You're just being stupid about this -_- I agree that things should be what you're saying with people working hard and they get ahead and everyone accounting for their own mistakes, but the world isn't like that. There are things beyond people's control (there are surely situations where they try, but the world gives them no chance like oh A DEPRESSION for an example) and if everyone accounted for their own problems/issues/etc there wouldn't be much of a society.. that's one of the benefits of a society, help when you can't help yourself (for whatever reason).

And bullshit, I doubt everyone who works hard or whatnot would get to riches and even now 6 figures isn't really riches depending on where you live (and a lot of jobs to get 6 figures require you to live in cities/areas where you have to pay an assload just to live there). Congrats to that person you know who dropped out and made 6 figures now, but I have a friend whose mother went to Yale, intelligent and works hard, she was one of the top of her class, and she's barely making by for herself and her two children. This world just isn't what you want it to be and to make it what you want it to be will require a firm foundation.. i,e, good parenting (it all starts with how good the parents are imo) and people who are forced to be parents when they could at least have another option are not going to be the best of parents... and even adoptions doesn't necessarily mean they'll find a good home, doesn't mean they'll find a home at all and guess what? That's gonna lead to a person being raised improperly. The world is too complex for a quick fix though ><

 

[Tomasello]

Let me get this straight... Women currently paying insurance premiums are deadbeats because you want them to pay even more out of pocket for a medical procedure covered by their insurance?

No, if their PRIVATE insurance that I also happen to have also covers abortions then of course not. She should pay the same premium as me even though I as a man will never have to have an abortion. If I don't like it I can switch insurance.

I should not have to pay for the abortion of someone on socialized healthcare who pays nothing into the system. I pay enough welfare, I don't need to pay for idiots too stupid to properly use birth control AND afford to pay to fix it.

 

[Tomasello]

Do you... seriously think that everyone who gets pregnant seriously has enough money for every frivolous things or expensive frivolous things? I doubt it... and those who do should be forced to pay for it themselves, I'll agree.. but there are many who don't who have. I just don't get you.. why do you want to pay for the welfare of mother and child for probably at best 15-16 years costing FAR MORE rather than be the 1 cent toward the abortion (at most)

Because I do not believe AT ALL that me not paying for it would somehow force the person to have a baby. It's the stupidest thing I have ever heard. She's either going to find a way to pay for the abortion or she's going to choose to have the kid. She's not going to have a kid because no one will lend her $300 for an abortion. NO ONE IS THAT POOR. Even people on welfare are not that broke.

And like I said before if you are that allegedly poor.... DONT HAVE VAGINAL INTERCOURSE if you can't figure out how not to get pregnant.