Health care bill passed in house

I disagree with your assertion, Alanon. Sexism plays a huge role in how abortion is handled. Debates fairly drip with it. Lawmakers institute waiting periods and demand that women have ultrasounds because they don't think women really, really, really for sure know what's going on inside and should think extra hard about what's "best" for them. There's a palpable need to make women feel guilty for not wanting to fulfill what anti-choice folk think of as biological destiny to be mothers, or at the very least to throw as many roadblocks in front of them as possible.

The Hyde amendment has done a lot to make abortions harder to obtain for low-income women. Stupak-Pitts makes the situation even worse. Thankfully, Obama recognizes this and isn't too keen on adding even more restrictions to a woman's right to choose.
 
Hell it makes perfect sense people don't want to pay for others to have abortions, it's not a form of birth control. That being said, if they make it soo unatainable because of the cost forcing many to go threw with pregnancies they are unable to fully support, well then you can unwillingly support their child/ren for years to come!! Makes perfect sense!!
 
Because the parents couldnt have used birth control BEFORE the women got pregnant amirite? In your scenario the answer is still "You should have used birth control." Alternatively in the cases mentioned where the individuals change their minds about having a child mid pregnancy "they should have thought about whether they wanted to be have a child longer."
You're completely ignoring the fact that even spending a a third of the money that the abortions or deliveries/children would cost on teaching kids about condoms and/or on education in general(as in actual education, studies show that the more well educated a population is the lower the amount of accidental pregnancies.)
What's better spending?
Spending money on actions that large chunks of the population find morally dubious or at least don't think they should be paying for OR preventing the "costly situations" from happening in the first place via sex education and/or a better education for citizens in general which not only would curb the accidental pregnancies but boost other areas of the infrastructure?
You're trying to narrow the entire debate down to 2 options when the real world doesn't work like like a true/false test.

Not only that but the childbirth is a different situation depending on your view on abortion. Several pro abortion posters I've seen in general view the fetus as an object or parasite so from a pro abortion standpoint childbirth is a different issue which is apparently being lumped together in this debate. Paying for childbirth would be a different ethical issue altogether as the child has no ability to make it's feelings known in the first place nor could it be capable of making any decisions concerning it's birth in the first place. Not helping with the birth would be more akin to seeing a person in danger and refusing to do a simple action which would save their life. It would generally be considered morally reprehensible to abandon a child in the garbage so why is the idea of abandoning the mother AND child to possible death from childbirth complications such a casual thing to you(to posters in general going on about how if we don't have the government pay for abortions we shouldnt pay for childbirth)
 
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Fact


My mother got pregnant with both my brother and myself on birth control.


Fact


My aunt got pregnant with her youngest on birth control


Fact (learned through basic education no extra spending required)

Birth control, condoms, any form of contraceptive is NOT 100% effective, but you all knew that amirite.


Fact


Abortions are covered here in Canada, there are still protestors, however, whether they like it or not a VERY insignificant amount of taxes they contribute go towards this coverage.
 
Fact: we already knew that but you seem to think that because a 1% chance of something failing is enough reason to completely discredit valid and easy forms of birth control.

Fact: you're patronizing anyone who doesn't agree with you by treating them like they're stupid with no real reason to assume so other than they don't think like you do then fail to realize doing so does not help your case if infact you are attempting to change the minds of those whom disagree with you.
In other words the majority of the people already know birth control isn't 100% so stop acting like 2+2=4 is a hard concept for us already.

Fact: seat-belts don't always save you.
Does that mean that car companies shouldn't install those devices or be required to do so? Does that mean the people that didn't wear their seat belts and died as a result are any less a victim of their own lack of concern for their body?
If a cure for cancer( or a permanent easy way to prevent it) only worked on 80% of the people with no ill side effects who took it would that be reason enough to not recommend using it?
Just because you or your family happened to be in the extreme minority on the bad luck scale concerning pregnancy does not mean that using condoms as birth control is a bad idea.
The use of condoms and birth control pills are still valid alternatives that should have been used before the situation could even get close to consideration of the abortion clinic and should taxpayers or the government be responsible for a person's neglect of their own body when engaging in an "at risk" behavior in what a majority of abortion cases are.
93% of all abortions occur due to "social" reasons aka they thought it would be inconvenient or they didnt want to get pregnant.
1% from incest or rape
6% from health problems.
So yes logically one should pay for approximately 7% of abortions. The other 93% still sounds to me like they should have prevented things with probably a 1~2% of those being the horribly common defective condoms you seem to think encompass all abortions.
 
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I'm patronizing?? And yet no where did I state it would be a better idea to invest said funds into furthering the education surrounding prenancy, the ways to avoid it and so on.

Also, no where did I discredit birth control. That was merely my way of saying SHIT HAPPENS.

So had my mother or aunt decided they were in no position to bring a child into this world and were forced (living in the states of course) to pay out of pocket to terminate the pregnancy but ALSO could not afford it thus forcing them to keep the child they could not provide for... what then.

I thought my points were very clear and kinda figured even the simplist of minds would catch the simple meanings.

Shit happens and not everyone is fortunate enough to have others to fall back on or other options period.

I'm sure your answer to all this would be they shouldn't be having sex, but see, that's why there's birth control!! That's also why I said abortion is not a form of birth control but should be treated as a last option.

Whatever, honest to god the discussions on these boards get fucking twisted and construed constantly, aparently I was doing things I was completely unaware of AND within my extremely and ridiculously simple points.

BTW to those who highly disagree with this method/option and feel they should not pay for it, move, move to another society that does not support mothers. Bubye.

Otherwise suck it up.
 
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I think making ANY insurance forced on a person to pay is bullshit.. to some regards I can accept car since driving isn't a right, it's a privilege.. but still.. it's bullshit -_- it's the same bullshit as making a seatbelt legal.. if I don't care to pay for my own safety WHY SHOULD I?! :|

though maybe I'm confusing something.. gonna go reread this article >.>

Why should I have to pay for your hospital visit if something happens to you?
 
shit post

Fact: 100% of women aren't getting abortions 100% of the time. Infact, I'd be suprised if the amount of currently living women in the United States that went through with an abortion any time in their life was anywhere close to one thousandth of a percent. Thats 0.001% fyi.

Your "MY TAX DOLLARS!" are going to end up paying more for perscriptions of childrens cold medicine more than you are for abortions I'd wager, and really, nobody needs cold medicine unless you've got something else that having a cold could complicate.

Why should I have to pay for your hospital visit if something happens to you?

Why should I have to pay for the VA or Medicare if something happens to Soldiers or the Elderly? Nothings keeping them from spending their own money. If you don't want socialized medicine, you shouldn't compromise for select groups.

Why stop at healthcare? Social Security is a pretty big tax drain. Nothing more Socialist like taking money from our paychecks to give to those that don't work anymore! And hey, I don't have kids, so why do I have to pay for my neighbors little boys education. Firefighters and Police force? Bootstraps yourself up a hose to dowse that blaze and obviously you shouldn't put yourself in a position to have a crime committed against you, that's just common sense!

btw, I'm responding ironically(and like a libertarian.)

For those against UHC, NHS, Socialized Medicine, or whatever the new buzzword is, I hope you realize you're dragging America down to a level that many Second World nations are above, and driving business and economic opportunities away. A healthy citizen is an efficient citizen. The lack of overall care in our current healthcare system is absolutely ruining this country, and because of baby boomers and hypocritical religious types, it isn't going to get any better. Bureaucracy ran medicine already exists in this nation, it's called Privatized Health Insurance. Only unlike the government that profits more off you being alive, they profit off not paying out. And once you idiots get hit with a denial, you'll snap back to reality. Until then, keep believing you're covered. It's funny to the rest of us. It's high time the United States joins the rest of the modern world.

E: You know what? I think they should just remove Ambulances from the 911 service, after all, if we aren't going to get public funded healthcare, why should people be able to use a public funded service to be transported to a hospital? Time to memorize the numbers of all hospitals you'll be closest to!

I am quite sick and tired of our elected officials taking bribes and shitting out scripted lies to be munched up by this countries ghastly large undereducated population, rather than actually working for the people who gave them their jobs.
 
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Fact: seat-belts don't always save you.
Does that mean that car companies shouldn't install those devices or be required to do so? Does that mean the people that didn't wear their seat belts and died as a result are any less a victim of their own lack of concern for their body?

To be fair, I'd say seat belts should be required in cars but not required to wear if you're over 18. Over 18 I can kinda see "you make your own choices". But if someone was in an accident not of their fault they shouldn't be penalized but if it was than they can pay entirely for it and their rates can go up.

I can kinda see when people go "well they chose to have sex" when it comes to pregnancy and abortion.. that's mostly true but not always. Rape or peer pressure or whatnot. I never really agreed with people paying for my hospital visits btw. I avoid them as much as I can. I think, though, the entire health system needs to be ENTIRELY reviewed.. too much profiteering on people's health... THAT'S bullshit. It's as bad as war time profiteering. Seriously.. a lot of these health companies, the lobbyists involved, some congressman/senators (Not all), etc.. so many are just corrupting it more than it should be... a lot of problems are in this country though :\

In theory the Social Security is supposed to pay for the elderly, but the problem there is that the government takes outta it too much for other things. As for the military, I'd say ya, we should pay for that too. That's something our taxes should go to. People might be up in arms of "zomg why not ALL citizens treated equally" cause they aren't? Someone whose risking his life for the safety of the country is worth more than those who sit comfortably risking nothing (so yes me included lol).

I don't think I'm really on one side or the other cause I see benefits of both but I think both have their flaws atm >< I just don't know how to make it better without changing MORE than the health care system.
 
Most of the people in this thread need to stop whining. The "she's going to be FORCED to have a baby if my tax dollars don't pay for it" excuse is total BULLSHIT.

My buddy knocked up his girl friend a few years ago. It cost him $600 for the abortion. If two people can't come up with $600 in 90 days they should both be neutered.

99% of people can pay for abortions so stop crying because you don't want people to take some god damn accountability in their lives and fix their own mistakes.

99% of these people getting knocked up do so because they either don't use birth control at all and just fuck like rabbits, forgot to take there pill half the time, a friend of theirs thought it would be funny to poke a hole in there condom with a needle, etc. etc. etc.
 
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Fact: 100% of women aren't getting abortions 100% of the time. Infact, I'd be suprised if the amount of currently living women in the United States that went through with an abortion any time in their life was anywhere close to one thousandth of a percent. Thats 0.001% fyi.

Your "MY TAX DOLLARS!" are going to end up paying more for perscriptions of childrens cold medicine more than you are for abortions I'd wager, and really, nobody needs cold medicine unless you've got something else that having a cold could complicate.



Why should I have to pay for the VA or Medicare if something happens to Soldiers or the Elderly? Nothings keeping them from spending their own money. If you don't want socialized medicine, you shouldn't compromise for select groups.

Why stop at healthcare? Social Security is a pretty big tax drain. Nothing more Socialist like taking money from our paychecks to give to those that don't work anymore! And hey, I don't have kids, so why do I have to pay for my neighbors little boys education. Firefighters and Police force? Bootstraps yourself up a hose to dowse that blaze and obviously you shouldn't put yourself in a position to have a crime committed against you, that's just common sense!

btw, I'm responding ironically(and like a libertarian.)

For those against UHC, NHS, Socialized Medicine, or whatever the new buzzword is, I hope you realize you're dragging America down to a level that many Second World nations are above, and driving business and economic opportunities away. A healthy citizen is an efficient citizen. The lack of overall care in our current healthcare system is absolutely ruining this country, and because of baby boomers and hypocritical religious types, it isn't going to get any better. Bureaucracy ran medicine already exists in this nation, it's called Privatized Health Insurance. Only unlike the government that profits more off you being alive, they profit off not paying out. And once you idiots get hit with a denial, you'll snap back to reality. Until then, keep believing you're covered. It's funny to the rest of us. It's high time the United States joins the rest of the modern world.

E: You know what? I think they should just remove Ambulances from the 911 service, after all, if we aren't going to get public funded healthcare, why should people be able to use a public funded service to be transported to a hospital? Time to memorize the numbers of all hospitals you'll be closest to!

I am quite sick and tired of our elected officials taking bribes and shitting out scripted lies to be munched up by this countries ghastly large undereducated population, rather than actually working for the people who gave them their jobs.

I love how people get exactly whats wrong with our country figured out, and call everyone who doesnt agree with them stupid and accuse them of being the problem.


Yeah right, its Health care that destroying this country, lmfao this reminds me of that senator calling our health care "the American holocaust" Sorry, maybe im just sheltered, but i havn't seen anyone dying in the streets because a hospital wouldn't treat them.

Oh and "government profiting off you being alive" lmfao, right thats why in mass, with thier "free" health care doctors are payed to NOT run extra test, (wich is also in the bill btw, theres a tax on docters for every "extra" test they run on you.)

A friend of my moms lived in mass for years and kept getting urinary infections a couple times a year, it wasnt till she moved to North Carolina that a doctor actually ran ALL the test on her that he thought she needed and found out she had gall stones. Government run health care doesn't profit off keeping you alive, it profits off of sending you home with nothing but a prescription and a doctors advice.

the problem is noone even KNOWS whats in these fucking bills. theres like 6 different ones and the democrats can't even keep em straight, they use the fact that theres more then one as an excuse to say ANYTHING about them. (barrack obama said his healthcare bill would NOT include abortions, when asked why the current bill has exactly that in it last month he says "oh, i ment abortions arn't coverd in MY health care bill, the one that has not yet been commited to paper" They are saying all over the news that they're gonnna CUT cost and INCREASE competition, even tho the one just passed outright BANS the sale of private insurance in 2013. but if cornered about it they can say "oh i was talking about the pelosi bill" or "oh i was talking about the Ried bill" see how that works? wow politicians are fucking experts at that "lying without REALLY lying" shit arn't they?

The real problem is we want some sort of health care reform, but we don't trust the lying crooks in Washington one fucking bit. they can't even keep the bills straight, or their lies straight. they shove together a giant piece of shit put together by bureaucrats, and politicians, and then vote on it, with out even reading the fucking bill. they have this mentality that well ANYTHING is better then nothing, just like Bill Clinton said the other day, the WORST thing we can do is nothing. no... i think completely fucking everything up is the worst we could do. and if anyone can do it, its the governemnt.

i think what people want is REAL health care reform, without all the cloudiness, confusion and name calling thats been going on. people don't wanna be accused of being stupid, or "astro-turf" or nazi's. just for questioning what the hell is going on. the democrats are going by the idea that what most important is NOW, NOW, NOW, it doesnt matter what it looks like we just gotta pass this shit, NOW. we can fix it later, just pass it NOW. no thanks, if they think the best way of reforming our healthcare system is to tear it down and rebuild it, maybe we should take our time and do it RIGHT, the FIRST time.



Edit:: oh, and im deff not for banning abortions, but i don't think a woman should be able to just walk into a hospital and get a free abortion lickity split, with no questions asked whenever she "needs" one. if you think this makes me sexist or chauvinistic or w/e, then you can kiss my ass. I'm fucking sick and tired of being looked down upon just because i consider an unborn baby, a life.
 
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Oh and "government profiting off you being alive" lmfao, right thats why in mass, with thier "free" health care doctors are payed to NOT run extra test, (wich is also in the bill btw, theres a tax on docters for every "extra" test they run on you.)

This bill is the exact opposite of what someone who wants a public option wants. It's a government backing of the privatized industry.

A friend of my moms lived in mass for years and kept getting urinary infections a couple times a year, it wasnt till she moved to North Carolina that a doctor actually ran ALL the test on her that he thought she needed and found out she had gall stones. Government run health care doesn't profit off keeping you alive, it profits off of sending you home with nothing but a prescription and a doctors advice.

Anecdotal evidence isn't real evidence. I've never heard of anyone from a nation with public funded healthcare having this issue, and I've read just about every healthcare thread over at Something Awful.

the problem is noone even KNOWS whats in these fucking bills.

The problem is that those that really don't care aren't going to bother reading the bill, or one of many synopsis articles posted by just about every major news outlet. And, sadly, since they're undereducated and easily manipulated, it's pretty difficult to make any beneficial progress in this country.

The real problem is we want some sort of health care reform, but we don't trust the lying crooks in Washington one fucking bit. they can't even keep the bills straight, or their lies straight. they shove together a giant piece of shit put together by bureaucrats, and politicians, and then vote on it, with out even reading the fucking bill. they have this mentality that well ANYTHING is better then nothing, just like Bill Clinton said the other day, the WORST thing we can do is nothing. no... i think completely fucking everything up is the worst we could do. and if anyone can do it, its the governemnt.

You're right, which is why I'm a supporter of term limits in all government positions. If it's good enough for the President, why isn't it good enough for the Senate or the House? New blood is what D.C. needs, and not just in the White House. It's literally a stagnated pool of old people who are set for life, so they don't care what happens as long as they do enough to get re-elected.
 
We have a 12 trillion dollar deficit, what part of "Keynesian Economics fails" is our government not understanding? Throwing another 2 trillion+ at a problem that was created by the government messing about with our affairs is going to do anything but help.

1900 damn pages, I'd bet 1900 dollars only one person has read it.


Tax money pays for stuff we don't like all the time. I don't remember anyone giving me the option of not having my tax money going to supplement faith-based organizations or to fund idiotic wars that didn't serve our national interest, but there you are. Why should this be any different?

Crap argument is crap.

Tax money should not pay for any of that, save for the military. See the constitution.

I think the problem is that I come across as condescending to some Libertarians like yourself, because I generally tell them they don't have a clue about the ramifications of their own line of thinking, and if anything sets a Libertarian off, it is telling they don't understand what they are regurgitating.

I'd be interested in you elaborating this.
What ramifications, what lack of understanding?
 
Tax money should not pay for any of that, save for the military. See the constitution.

See the constitution, a document set up to change as it's needed to be. Remember when Blacks and Women couldn't vote, much less talk out of turn if a white man wasn't present to give them permission? See the constitution.

That's the lamest cop out anyone can ever throw out in a political debate, ever.
 
Anecdotal evidence isn't real evidence. I've never heard of anyone from a nation with public funded healthcare having this issue, and I've read just about every healthcare thread over at Something Awful.
its not real to you, but I'll take the real stories of real people i KNOW, over politicians/ media/ random people on internet, everyday, thank you.



The problem is that those that really don't care aren't going to bother reading the bill, or one of many synopsis articles posted by just about every major news outlet. And, sadly, since they're undereducated and easily manipulated, it's pretty difficult to make any beneficial progress in this country.
Thats because the bill is 2000 pages of legal jargon, doubletalk, and bullshit.
try reading the actual bill, it'll make your head explode. even the politicians have to have fucking legal translators telling them what the bullshit in the bill means.



You're right, which is why I'm a supporter of term limits in all government positions. If it's good enough for the President, why isn't it good enough for the Senate or the House? New blood is what D.C. needs, and not just in the White House. It's literally a stagnated pool of old people who are set for life, so they don't care what happens as long as they do enough to get re-elected.

this i agree with %100
 
See the constitution, a document set up to change as it's needed to be. Remember when Blacks and Women couldn't vote, much less talk out of turn if a white man wasn't present to give them permission? See the constitution.

That's the lamest cop out anyone can ever throw out in a political debate, ever.

Cool story, albeit unrelated. Doesn't change the fact that excessive taxation allows the government to expand beyond the scope it was intended, and forcibly takes away our property.

But hey, whatever.
 
It's not whining to point out it's a lot cheaper than $600 when your insurance is paying for it.

god forbid you have an inconvenience like that to get that baby scooped out. poor thing, next thing you know you might have some Sexist make you look at the thing on an ultrasound before exterminating the parasite.
 
god forbid you have an inconvenience like that to get that baby scooped out. poor thing, next thing you know you might have some Sexist make you look at the thing on an ultrasound before exterminating the parasite.

I don't know about the laws down there, but in order to have an abortion here, well there wouldn't be a damn thing really to look at on an ultra sound. That would be a waste of money/professional time.

Plus, if someone has decided that they want to abort, trying to change their mind by way of ultra sound is ridiculous. They came to that decision for a reason.
 
I don't know about the laws down there, but in order to have an abortion here, well there wouldn't be a damn thing really to look at on an ultra sound. That would be a waste of money/professional time.

Plus, if someone has decided that they want to abort, trying to change their mind by way of ultra sound is ridiculous. They came to that decision for a reason.


It changes more peoples minds then you think, suddenly its alot harder to deny that its a life when you see toes and fingers in an ultrasound
 
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