Help me settle a brd disagreement

[Vilurum]

Manteel and Gomlek are macroable for their casting speed, for the record. The choice between the two is a matter of the 2% (3% for HQ Manteel but lol at that) difference. Gomlek's other stats (namely the hMP and set Auto Refresh) can also come into play for a resting set. Manteel's other stats largely don't (since you can and should macro in something else for debuffs).

I do think it's important and useful to get *one* of them, but I totally don't recommend Manteel over free-and-easy Gomlek unless you can get Manteel for free as well. (And even then it's worth getting full Yigit for resting purposes.)

The casting speed on Gomlek/Manteel alone isn't really too much to write home about - like most things in the game, it's when you stack stuff that you start to ooh and ahh. Gomlek/Manteel + active Minstrel's Ring + Loquacious Earring + Rostrum Pumps = yay. If you have the luxury of subbing RDM (you usually don't), more yay. Throw on Nightingale and it's giggle-worthy, particularly in conjunction with RDM sub.

If you're only going to get *one* thing for helping your casting speed, Minstrel's Ring, not Gomlek or Manteel, is what you should look at.

 

[Rhaddy]

Stop giving out bard secrets as pulls will be even more difficult now in post maint meripo madness.

 

[Stouter]

Meh, Debuffs cast fast enough without it, and like I said I don't see the second or two it would save you on Ballad or longer buff songs to merit all the praise it recieves.

A fast casting setup is very handy for a pulling brd, toss on troubadour and nightingale and you're keeping double ballad up on the mage(s) while spending less time casting than you would keeping ballad 2 alone up without. It's not useful in slow parties, but when you're doing those 15k+/hr parties where you never stop moving, it's the difference between losing chains around every 40 mobs and having a party that's one long chain.

 

[Vilurum]

Stop giving out bard secrets as pulls will be even more difficult now in post maint meripo madness.

I fall under the category of "not fired up enough about new merit stuff to bother competing with the 9548937543 other parties who *are* fired up about it right after maint". Indeed, I rarely bother meriting at all unless it's reasonably uncompeted to begin with: it's annoying and tiresome to me, to fight over claiming exp mobs as if they're NMs.

Consequently, it's no skin off my nose if BRDs on the whole become better pullers, and so I'll cheerfully fork out good advice to all, with pleasant disregard to timing.

 

[Fonzy]

As stouter already said, the same could be said of just about any job that could equip it. It's the best all-around body piece, but in most situations there is something a little better. It's a useful body piece for just about every job.

what part of this equation don't you get? BST isn't a merit party job, it has a far more versatile role than just DDing and occasionally tanking. Osode gives great benefits to all those roles, and at the same time doesn't gimp us for putting out damage. This is a job where we sub WHM and NIN to stay alive, not to rule a parse. Level BST and parse it with a Hauberk vs Osode, if your not having accuracy issues, aside from maybe very few added crits from osode your damage plays pretty much the same in both. Noone is debating full timing an Osode in a merit party which you seem to think this is what it is.

The reason this derailed is because the wise and knowing Stouter, being the BST expert he is, saw fit to claim no job reaps significant benefits from an Osode aside from RNG and that no other job should even want one. Being a BST who uses one, and feeling I have far more inside knowledge than him will of course cause me to call BS on that.

 

[Stouter]

I definately agree, there's too many crappy bards out there that think they are donig a good job. If it means I have to get my exp for new merits solo farming on blm at 4k/hr and making nice gil, I can live with that.

Additional note to bards, AF(+1) gloves are your friend, wear them anywhere you get resisted. They look dumb, and JSE look better, but the difference is huge. Same thing with wind torque vs bird whistle/flower necklace/star necklace. It doesn't matter in Mire, but loading up on CHR won't help if you neglect your skill against mamools. Opo crown is also so very, very bad.

 

[Stouter]

what part of this equation don't you get? BST isn't a merit party job, it has a far more versatile role than just DDing and occasionally tanking. Osode gives great benefits to all those roles, and at the same time doesn't gimp us for putting out damage. This is a job where we sub WHM and NIN to stay alive, not to rule a parse. Level BST and parse it with a Hauberk vs Osode, if your not having accuracy issues, aside from maybe very few added crits from osode your damage plays pretty much the same in both. Noone is debating full timing an Osode in a merit party which you seem to think this is what it is.

So damage is pretty much the same when accuracy isn't an issue and the only piece of gear you consider changing is your body piece?

The reason this derailed is because the wise and knowing Stouter, being the BST expert he is, saw fit to claim no job reaps significant benefits from an Osode aside from RNG and that no other job should even want one. Being a BST who uses one, and feeling I have far more inside knowledge than him will of course cause me to call BS on that.

I said I don't see why jobs other than rng fight for priority, because it's nowhere near the dramatic boost that everyone that advocates it for other jobs says it is. I never said I don't see why you would want one. And yes, people are saying it is omguber full time for other jobs, why else would you see war, nin, and sam full timing one in exp?

The other major anti-bst priority arguement is simple and has been ignored so far. Apart from the sky-only ls's, a shell wants to equip their members to more effectively deal with other fights. A rng in an osode helps the shell kill faster, a sam/thf or war/thf in an osode helps the ls kill better, hell even a brd in an osode helps the shell members they merit with get faster merits. A bst with an osode does much less to help a ls apart from a couple rare occurances, or an all bst shell (in which job priority doesn't matter anyway).

 

[Fonzy]

So damage is pretty much the same when accuracy isn't an issue and the only piece of gear you consider changing is your body piece?

you do realize that my melee damage as a whole needs to be less than my pets and that hitting too hard or criticaling too much can be hurtful to soloing. I don't gear up my BST for soloing to do the greatest overall damage, I do it to make it as smooth and easy as possible. That, and there is the cold hard reality of the stat spread and lack of any attack trait or job ability to augment and make BST damage anything greater than mediocre. Yes there is a fairly defined summit for BST melee damage, and we hit it fairly early. But please, do tell me what slot I should be prioritizing over +10 to all stats when I have no accuracy issues?

I said I don't see why jobs other than rng fight for priority, because it's nowhere near the dramatic boost that everyone that advocates it for other jobs says it is.

yes, I realize you said that and I strongly disagreed and I gave you my argument as one of the jobs that thinks they can benefit greatly from it. I didn't comment on BRD or NIN or any of those other jobs I don't play because frankly, I don't pretend to be an expert.

I never said I don't see why you would want one. And yes, people are saying it is omguber full time for other jobs, why else would you see war, nin, and sam full timing one in exp?

well, first, why would you say you don't see why people fight for getting the piece if that doesn't imply you don't think they should even want it. The second part, i really don't know, I don't really have enough merit party exp to debate what other melee's should be wearing. All i know is what works for me in a solo/exp situation on BST. If you want to go after every melee you see that full times an Osode in merit parties, be my guest.

The other major anti-bst priority arguement is simple and has been ignored so far. Apart from the sky-only ls's, a shell wants to equip their members to more effectively deal with other fights. A rng in an osode helps the shell kill faster, a sam/thf or war/thf in an osode helps the ls kill better, hell even a brd in an osode helps the shell members they merit with get faster merits. A bst with an osode does much less to help a ls apart from a couple rare occurances, or an all bst shell (in which job priority doesn't matter anyway).

I pretty much agree on this. I understand why normal LS' sometimes prioritize jobs and why BST is at the bottom of the totem pole on those occasions. But to be honest, the idea that one piece of gear outside of an upgraded relic, kraken club or ridill can make a noticeable impact on an ls' performance is pretty silly to begin with. Okay, W legs are pretty nice to have on your PLD's. I just know, that of all the jobs that can wear an Osode, BST can get some of the most mileage out of it and that is why they commonly fight for priority. Of course, prioritizing job gear based on anything other than effort put in seems pretty antiquated anyways.

 

[Nyett]

Not to mention that Fonz is much sexier.

 

[Eormanric]

I didn't bother reading any of the other pages, but i have errant,sha'hir and osode for my brd and you can't beat sha'hir for merits/exp but when it comes to HNM where your not exactly rushed. The 10CHR for elegy and 30mp for mp build (we all know brds get crap mp, especially when u have 8hp merits -.-) but it's not useless for brd by any means, it's not priority lol, MNK should be priority on osode though, 10mnd for chi, and it's best ws piece for us.

 

[Stouter]

you do realize that my melee damage as a whole needs to be less than my pets and that hitting too hard or criticaling too much can be hurtful to soloing. I don't gear up my BST for soloing to do the greatest overall damage, I do it to make it as smooth and easy as possible. That, and there is the cold hard reality of the stat spread and lack of any attack trait or job ability to augment and make BST damage anything greater than mediocre. Yes there is a fairly defined summit for BST melee damage, and we hit it fairly early. But please, do tell me what slot I should be prioritizing over +10 to all stats when I have no accuracy issues?

Do you wear no acc gear at all then? You couldn't swap out two snipers for 2 flame rings for 5 STR and 10 attack instead of 5 DEX? You couldn't swap a life belt for a swift? And most importantly, if you don't want to do more damage, why would you use the arguement that it allows you to do more damage?

well, first, why would you say you don't see why people fight for getting the piece if that doesn't imply you don't think they should even want it.

Because there's a huge difference between wanting and between wanting so bad that you would argue and exaggerate how useful it is to you, when it's a nominal boost - or more likely a downgrade - from using a few other pieces that are cheap and/or easy to get. But like I said, I also don't understand people fighting over completely useless gear like the junk relic they'll never wear.

I understand why normal LS' sometimes prioritize jobs and why BST is at the bottom of the totem pole on those occasions. But to be honest, the idea that one piece of gear outside of an upgraded relic, kraken club or ridill can make a noticeable impact on an ls' performance is pretty silly to begin with. Okay, W legs are pretty nice to have on your PLD's. I just know, that of all the jobs that can wear an Osode, BST can get some of the most mileage out of it and that is why they commonly fight for priority. Of course, prioritizing job gear based on anything other than effort put in seems pretty antiquated anyways.

Rng can get the most mileage out of it by far, and yes 10 STR is a huge boost over the alternatives for rng. Any other job that can wear it can argue how much mileage they get from it, but in the end it's just a swap in piece for a marginal boost, or an always on piece that gimps the user. Which is why you're mostly right, there shouldn't be job priority for it for brd/bst/war/sam/mnk/nin. Even in the sky-only ls, what do all these jobs get up there?

Brd - um, crap zenith they'll never wear, god gear which are mostly useless (hello bottom of the line for haidate)
Bst - junk adaman pieces, a few hecatomb, and useful god gear
Mnk/Nin/Sam - Shura and useful god gear
War - junk adaman, junk koenig, hecatomb, useful god gear
Rng - Kote/CFG, Sune-ate
So looking at what else is there for the job to get, why would bst get priority over brd?

 

[Bajaratt]

yes, I realize you said that and I strongly disagreed and I gave you my argument as one of the jobs that thinks they can benefit greatly from it. I didn't comment on BRD or NIN or any of those other jobs I don't play because frankly, I don't pretend to be an expert.

The only way BST "greatly benefits" or would noticeably benefit at all from osode over a hauby is the 10 CHR for charm, everything else is a downgrade from hauby. So then, you say that you don't want to do the most damage, but then your argument about osode is great for damage becomes hypocritical. BST gets use out of it, definitely, but so does every other job that can equip it, so stop acting like BST is unique in that respect.

 

[Rappa]

The casting speed on Gomlek/Manteel alone isn't really too much to write home about - like most things in the game, it's when you stack stuff that you start to ooh and ahh. Gomlek/Manteel + active Minstrel's Ring + Loquacious Earring + Rostrum Pumps = yay. If you have the luxury of subbing RDM (you usually don't), more yay. Throw on Nightingale and it's giggle-worthy, particularly in conjunction with RDM sub.

People pull on brd without subbing rdm? Guess that would explain why so many random people I don't know (mostly melee) freak out whenever they pt with me and get chains higher than 20, lol.

 

[Khajit]

People pull on brd without subbing rdm? Guess that would explain why so many random people I don't know (mostly melee) freak out whenever they pt with me and get chains higher than 20, lol.

Most bards dont know how to pull period so /rdm isnt going to make them any better.

Bst's ... Stop trying to inflate the value of osode for yourself. Seriously. even with the +chr chr being your only argument literally every other job there except rng and mnk doesnt need osode for more than a fashion peice. You won the argument vs loads of others who might want it over you in a silly priority system.
Trying to inflate the importance of osode for yourself is just as silly as the brds trying to say osode and it's 30 mp is the best shit ever.

 

[Stouter]

People pull on brd without subbing rdm? Guess that would explain why so many random people I don't know (mostly melee) freak out whenever they pt with me and get chains higher than 20, lol.

Brd/nin only for me in merits, people normally don't freak out until we hit at least chain 100 in my parties. Their reactions always make me realize how many terrible, terrible bards there are at 75.

 

[Bajaratt]

People pull on brd without subbing rdm? Guess that would explain why so many random people I don't know (mostly melee) freak out whenever they pt with me and get chains higher than 20, lol.

When I merit on bard, I use /nin, but only because I don't have RDM leveled as a subjob.

 

[Mai Ikari]

Quick question on BRD/RDM... does Dispel work at all, or is it just WHM sub with fastcast?

 

[Vilurum]

I levelled /RDM for that purpose, tried it, and was fairly underwhelmed. It *was* nice to whip out my songs a bit faster and be out pulling that much sooner, but ultimately that only ever mattered if there was competition (and as I think I've already mentioned in this topic, I'm not in a rush for merits so I'd just as soon merit at some time when I don't have to deal with much/any competition in the first place, problem solved).

For things that actually managed to hurt people, my healing abilities were limited and my status curing abilities were nonexistent. For avoiding delays related to *me*, blinking away mob attacks worked better.

If a BRD can avoid causing a strain on the healer's MP (be it because they're self-healing or because they're blinking or what have you), and if they can have a new mob at camp ready to kill whenever the current mob dies, and if they can consistently maintain at least 2 melee buffs and Ballad 2 (preferably Ballad 1 as well, but that's not always an option, or even needed), then they're a good puller. If they can't, then they're not.

Different subs help the above in different ways. So long as your play style accounts for what your sub can and can't do and your sub isn't painfully mismatched to the mob type, it works. Sub something for what you need the most help with. If your healer's MP is getting strained by the melees, help out with /WHM. If you're personally being an MP sink by taking too many hits, help out with /NIN. If you just need that extra little time to snag a mob before that other party does, /RDM may give you that edge.

There's no blanket answer - depends on mobs, depends on camp, depends on competition, depends on how well the melees share hate, depends on how well the melees maintain blinks, depends on how well the healer manages MP, and depends on the BRD's own play style.

EDIT: And Dispel works reasonably often. It's not quite the near-zero resists that a job with mainjob enfeebling skill gets, but it's still very very low despite being half-level skill. However, BRD/RDM's Dispel only really ever came into play in the days of exping and meriting on RDM weapon mobs, nothing else comes *that* pre-buffed that it matters.

 

[Rappa]

Quick question on BRD/RDM... does Dispel work at all, or is it just WHM sub with fastcast?

Works fine on non-dark resistant mobs, especially if you macro on a dark staff when you cast it. Handy when you're pulling a mage mamool that's buffed up several times before you pulled it since Finale's recast blows.

 

[Mai Ikari]

I was more asking the question in reference to Date Erucas with only a BRD64 as dispel... Gonna see if I can get Ary to sub RDM next time, because 20 second recast on finale just doesn't cut it against spamming cocoon every 5-10 seconds. >_>