HNMKISS(LS) System Discussion

You're right, getting rewarded for your time is an awful idea. Luck is a much better facet for item distribution.

Give me a break, this belongs in off-topic, because this is a complete joke. I'm telling two friends to stay the hell away from this, and hopefully each of them will do the same.

Yes, luck is a much better facet for item distribution.. for the casual player who doesnt have any time to play and would much rather try his luck at a chance than have no chance at all.

The other idea is a good idea for item distribution too.. whoever has the biggest rash on their bum from sitting should get all of the items, eh? :)

In all seriousness though, the points system is fine for people who can afford to dedicate half their week into FF, it ensures that they are aptly rewarded (eventually) for their months of dedication.. but for some people who cant, a chance in the dark may suit them just fine.
 
He's actually getting quite a few messages about it from interested unaffiliated players. Most of the responses here are from people who've either benefitted from a hierarchy/points system or are currently members of pretty long existing shells with fairly strict recruitment or at least limited.

It kind of feels like this shell is attempting to marginalize achievements, and that makes many of you uncomfortable. In theory, members don't need to work hard to get in line, do their time, put in their effort. Some of the people who've replied to him I know have been in endgame before, know the fights, but just want something much more relaxed.

The shell wont only be comprised of people who have oddball playtimes either. There are a few who have contacted Dracoden that merely dislike the points hierarchy system, but do have decent playtime hours. That likely will make up the core. And they understand fully that anyone who shows and contributes on any given fight has an equal chance at items.
 
Not at all, as I said, you run your Shell any way you see fit. You came here looking for opinions, which we gave you (and some of the people posting are amongst the most experienced endgame players on the server) and you choose not to believe.

I simply think you don't understand the amount of time involved in getting these items. That time has to be put in. There isn't a way around it, no matter how much you want to dream about getting the gear with little or no effort.
 
Your system isn't going to work anywhere near as well as you're hoping. It's somewhat similar to a system we had in TheNameless(ours wasn't luck though, but consensus among those who were lotting), and that led to apathy, greed and a good chunk of the linkshell leaving because Moraine didn't want to wait for another item after being given a speed belt. We had a small number of really dedicated campers, and a much larger number of "maybe, if I'm not busy" campers.

The system failed because of greed, really; and yours likely will too. If someone have absolutely nothing to gain from camping, and there's no incentive whatsoever to join in besides the drops, you can't expect to build a large number of dedicated players who are going to be willing to risk losing their coveted drops to someone who just joined based solely on luck. It's a system that's ridiculously easy to abuse that offers little in the way of inspiring dedicated players to stick with the linkshell.
 
At the very least you need to have some kind of lotting tier. I dont really understand what you are trying to accomplish with this shell. Free lotting gear instead of giving it to those that put in the time is your goal for this shell?

You want a shell that can do HNMs, but you also want a shell that gives no benefits at all to those that camp. I can't stress how bad of an idea that is.

Do you have any idea what camping HNMs is like?

Its long, its boring, its very hard to get your foot in the door, and just when you may begin to develop any kind of consistency, your members will get burned out from camping. You need a reason to keep your members comming back, and I garuntee you will not claim enough to have that be their only motivation. Points give the campers hope that the light at the end of the tunnel is near, that their time isnt completely wasted when they dont claim.
 
Last edited:
I have to admit, this was mainly just an experiment.. but things are taking off so well, i might have to put some actual thought into this. My advertisement has been up for less than 24 hours and I already have ~15 people in the shell with more on the way. It will be interesting, to say the least.
 
Interesting it will be, I do wish you luck, but like most people here, I don't see it lasting for the long run, at least not without modifications to the system, and lots of them.
 
By posting this and asking for feedback, it indicates to me that you aren't 100% confident in your system. If that is the case, I'm curious as to why you posted a recruitment thread first.
 
Because I was gonna do my thing no matter what people thought.. but I still wanted to know what they thought ;p
 
Because I was gonna do my thing no matter what people thought.. but I still wanted to know what they thought ;p

LOL This confuses me.



I don't understand how rewarding the casual player the same way you reward the uber dedicated player makes sense. The game just isn't set up that way in any other areas. For example, the casual player will take longer to level their job than the uber dedicated player. Should they expect SE to give them double the experience points because they are a casual player? Should they get double the skillups when crafting? Double the drops when farming? If a casual player expects to be on the same playing field as someone who plays 40+ hours a week, they are just silly.

Facilitating an environment where the casual player is able to be on the same playing field as the hard core player is likely to teach the casual player that things they want will just fall into their lap, which is dangerous for that individual and for your shell.

Also, it seems that what you're trying to do is to allow the group to lead you. This is a bad idea. It allows for too much potential for conflict, greed, cliques, and backstabbing. To be clear, I am not promoting a system where leaders rule with an iron fist; member input should be valued and always considered. I am promoting a system where leaders lead, whether that means scheduling something as opposed to waiting for the event to schedule itself, removing members from your shell for transgressions, or developing a battle strategy.

The ideals you have seem to me to be utopian in nature. While the ideals are just that - ideal - people in general are not. They have faults and shortcomings and, because of those faults and shortcomings, they cannot live up to those ideals.

I'd love to see you prove me wrong. Best of luck to you. ^^
 
In an effort to redirect controversy (and to further propagate its existence), I am asking for discussion regarding mine and Scwall's new endgame linkshell (found here http://www.qcdn.org/ffxi/showthread.php?t=49259).

Besides "we dont need anymore endgame linkshells!!" and "nOOb!", what do you guys think? What changes or modifications could be made to make a linkshell backed by these ideals more successful? Where could it run into trouble? And if you do think it is doomed to failure, why?

Thanks for the input ;)

Hmm. Here is my opininon.

Dynamis : won't work obviously. It takes time to learn pulling and general strategy. If you don't have "core" players you can't do shit.

Limbus : Might work considering how easy it is. If you want to kill the proto you cannot put the chips in freelot though lol. So for proto i'd recommend only one person keeps the chips then .... and try killing ultima with 18 rdm. Hmm wait haha ..

Sky : try killing byakko with an alliance of monks and ninjas.

Sea : i doubt a linkshell can do sky and sea anyway .. Though you can kill most low jailers with 6-8.

Einherjar : It's like dynamis .. you need a *group*


salvage : Same, you need a group. You cannot pop, pick the NM you want and kill it. It works the same way as dynamis : you want me to help me get this ? ok then first help me get that. If your LS doesn't work like this, change now.

NMs : If you let your BLMs/WHMs lot ridill it might work ...
 
We actually use a somewhat similar setup in Fury and it's worked pretty well for us. In the effort of sharing the little knowledge I have with the world...here goes!

We started off as a sky only shell but the idea was to gear people enough to expand into other endgame activities. There is no point system or attendance tracking. We have two mandatory times which usually end up being either farming or gods/jailors. However we have used this time in the past for Einherjar, KS99s, HNMs etc. The idea was exactly what you said...not everyone can devote 40 hours a week to the game. Since a points system will inevitably favor those people that can play more often, we shy away from that.

I won't lie to you, it's not always easy. We tried to run an completely internal Dynamis shell for a few months but it simply didn't work out. Since it was being run on a non-mandatory day, it was difficult to get the numbers that we needed to really give each zone a legitimate shot. We did, however, manage to get wins in all main cities and Beaucedine with numbers around 20. We also run Salvage, Einherjar and Limbus internally but it's all optional. Some days we don't have enough to run. Some days we have more than enough.

It's not the best system for everything but it does work for us. It sounds like you're wanting to focus more on HNMs than we choose to but that's a byproduct of our system. The more lax you make your rules, the harder it is to be successful initially at some of that stuff. Ultimately it comes down to your members developing a sense of camaraderie and wanting to accomplish things as a group moreso than for themselves. It's a lot of fun seeing friends get an item that they've worked for but getting your membership base to that point may take a little time.

Anyway, hopefully this helps a little bit. We're far from perfect but it does work for us. If you'd like to talk any more about it, you can PM me here or shoot me a /tell in game. In any event, good luck with the ls!
 
I appreciate all the other posts, but this one makes no sense. The OP obviously didn't do his required reading...

Hmm. Here is my opininon.

Dynamis : won't work obviously. It takes time to learn pulling and general strategy. If you don't have "core" players you can't do shit.

Limbus : Might work considering how easy it is. If you want to kill the proto you cannot put the chips in freelot though lol. So for proto i'd recommend only one person keeps the chips then .... and try killing ultima with 18 rdm. Hmm wait haha ..

Sky : try killing byakko with an alliance of monks and ninjas.

Sea : i doubt a linkshell can do sky and sea anyway .. Though you can kill most low jailers with 6-8.

Einherjar : It's like dynamis .. you need a *group*


salvage : Same, you need a group. You cannot pop, pick the NM you want and kill it. It works the same way as dynamis : you want me to help me get this ? ok then first help me get that. If your LS doesn't work like this, change now.

NMs : If you let your BLMs/WHMs lot ridill it might work ...
 
We actually use a somewhat similar setup in Fury and it's worked pretty well for us. In the effort of sharing the little knowledge I have with the world...here goes!

We started off as a sky only shell but the idea was to gear people enough to expand into other endgame activities. There is no point system or attendance tracking. We have two mandatory times which usually end up being either farming or gods/jailors. However we have used this time in the past for Einherjar, KS99s, HNMs etc. The idea was exactly what you said...not everyone can devote 40 hours a week to the game. Since a points system will inevitably favor those people that can play more often, we shy away from that.

I won't lie to you, it's not always easy. We tried to run an completely internal Dynamis shell for a few months but it simply didn't work out. Since it was being run on a non-mandatory day, it was difficult to get the numbers that we needed to really give each zone a legitimate shot. We did, however, manage to get wins in all main cities and Beaucedine with numbers around 20. We also run Salvage, Einherjar and Limbus internally but it's all optional. Some days we don't have enough to run. Some days we have more than enough.

It's not the best system for everything but it does work for us. It sounds like you're wanting to focus more on HNMs than we choose to but that's a byproduct of our system. The more lax you make your rules, the harder it is to be successful initially at some of that stuff. Ultimately it comes down to your members developing a sense of camaraderie and wanting to accomplish things as a group moreso than for themselves. It's a lot of fun seeing friends get an item that they've worked for but getting your membership base to that point may take a little time.

Anyway, hopefully this helps a little bit. We're far from perfect but it does work for us. If you'd like to talk any more about it, you can PM me here or shoot me a /tell in game. In any event, good luck with the ls!
You're not giving any kind of explanation into your system, only that you don't want a point system, because you don't want those who attend the non-mandatory days to have an edge in lotting over those that only show up when they're required to. Are you just letting everyone lot, or is it the leader's finger method of determining drops?

The thing you(dracoden) seem to completely ignore is why a point system is beneficial to your linkshell. Yes, those with more free time to help out will get an edge in gear, but in return those are the people that will be showing up to the events, so you want them to have that gear so they can use it to help you. If there's someone who can only play 1-2 days per week, giving them a super-rare item over someone who's online 7 days a week is practically throwing it away in terms of the use you'll see from it.

Casual players can still get their gear as well, no reason they couldn't only it will take a little longer. Your system really only benefits those who are too impatient and not dedicated enough to join a real linkshell. You'll get a bunch of people who are brand new to endgame or the people who didn't want to wait their turn to actually earn their gear. A point system is so universal because it's considered the best method for both the individual and the linkshell; you're only somewhat looking to the individual(ignoring the dedicated players for the ones looking to win the lottery), not the linkshell as a whole.
 
You're not giving any kind of explanation into your system, only that you don't want a point system, because you don't want those who attend the non-mandatory days to have an edge in lotting over those that only show up when they're required to. Are you just letting everyone lot, or is it the leader's finger method of determining drops?

The thing you(dracoden) seem to completely ignore is why a point system is beneficial to your linkshell. Yes, those with more free time to help out will get an edge in gear, but in return those are the people that will be showing up to the events, so you want them to have that gear so they can use it to help you. If there's someone who can only play 1-2 days per week, giving them a super-rare item over someone who's online 7 days a week is practically throwing it away in terms of the use you'll see from it.

Casual players can still get their gear as well, no reason they couldn't only it will take a little longer. Your system really only benefits those who are too impatient and not dedicated enough to join a real linkshell. You'll get a bunch of people who are brand new to endgame or the people who didn't want to wait their turn to actually earn their gear. A point system is so universal because it's considered the best method for both the individual and the linkshell; you're only somewhat looking to the individual(ignoring the dedicated players for the ones looking to win the lottery), not the linkshell as a whole.

I dont really care about whats best for this linkshell as a whole or if Jack the Wolfman who only shows up on the full moon gets every every single item he lots for, I just want a place to dick around and maybe kill a HNM while im at it. Im looking for laid back, like-minded people.. which is quite a few people Im discovering.

However, if things DO begin to take flight and we really actually make a kill or 2, then we will discuss adding some sort of structure to the shell.. In all reality, we dont really expect claim/kill much, but if we do have any type of success, there will be some loose regulations made. So a TRUE free lot system will probably only apply to the first kill (when and if it should occur). Why build a landing strip before I even have a plane?
 
Last edited:
you cant make everyone happy but iam looking how things going to trun out tho

good luck with your shell
 
Dracoden said:
However, if things DO begin to take flight and we really actually make a kill or 2, then we will discuss adding some sort of structure to the shell.. In all reality, we dont really expect claim/kill much, but if we do have any type of success, there will be some loose regulations made. So a TRUE free lot system will probably only apply to the first kill (when and if it should occur). Why build a landing strip before I even have a plane?

Very true. I know what you are trying to do, and hopefully if you get the right people together it will work.


However, if rules start to be arbitrarily changed because things aren't panning out how you intended, that usually causes problems and confusion. It's better to have the structure outlined outright before there is too many interests in how the current system is run. If the system has new rules put in place and people don't like them/they are too different, people will complain and tension within the shell will be created.

Thats just my input though. GL.
 
No matter if you spend half your week in ffxi or a few hrs. If you got time to make it to try your luck you got time to build points for lotting. If you don't have the time to get the required points for a item you don't really benifit anyone by having it in the first place. Joe blow the conquerer may be on top with points for awhile but he must use them to get items. Once he has said item joe jr then has a option at getting that item while mr conqurer is there rebuilding points for another item using the item he put many hours of effort into getting.

Lets also add, if your full of part timers that only play 3hrs a week you aint gonna be getting anywhere soon since 1 window of a true hnm is that long and your members would get bored waisting their weekly play time going for a hnm they have a small rarety at getting. Let alone that 3hr window would have to fall into their puney time frame.


It sounds good but is full of old school sky shell fail. Not even the fact that your cycleing members but that you honestly think a shell mixed of dedicated and easy going players will work with no sence of priority system. Just my 2 cents though
 
I dont really care about whats best for this linkshell as a whole or if Jack the Wolfman who only shows up on the full moon gets every every single item he lots for, I just want a place to dick around and maybe kill a HNM while im at it. Im looking for laid back, like-minded people.. which is quite a few people Im discovering.

However, if things DO begin to take flight and we really actually make a kill or 2, then we will discuss adding some sort of structure to the shell.. In all reality, we dont really expect claim/kill much, but if we do have any type of success, there will be some loose regulations made. So a TRUE free lot system will probably only apply to the first kill (when and if it should occur). Why build a landing strip before I even have a plane?
So you don't even care about make a fair system for your members, that's hardly an attitude that would attract dedicated, skilled players. There's lots of laid back people, but those are the very same people who don't camp HNM's; when you're building your shell on a faulty basis to begin with, it's destined for failure.

Just make/join a social linkshell with some high levels in it and camp shit with them. There's no reason to make an endgame linkshell when by your own admission, you're not going to be focusing on endgame. Hell, just join an endgame linkshell, they function just like social linkshells too, except they're much fairer in their distribution of loot.
 
I dont really care about whats best for this linkshell as a whole or if Jack the Wolfman who only shows up on the full moon gets every every single item he lots for, I just want a place to dick around and maybe kill a HNM while im at it. Im looking for laid back, like-minded people.. which is quite a few people Im discovering.

However, if things DO begin to take flight and we really actually make a kill or 2, then we will discuss adding some sort of structure to the shell.. In all reality, we dont really expect claim/kill much, but if we do have any type of success, there will be some loose regulations made. So a TRUE free lot system will probably only apply to the first kill (when and if it should occur). Why build a landing strip before I even have a plane?

If you don't care about what is best for the linkshell as a whole then you have no business leading the shell. Then again, as I stated previously, it seems as if you want the shell to lead you.

The post I quoted contradicts what you've posted in the recruitment section. I believe you are setting yourself up to have a lot of your members disappointed. You can't advertise that you're going to do something and then, not only not do it, but not even have a serious plan to do it.

I agree with Bajaratt that is seems you are trying to set up a social shell for high level players. It doesn't seem as if you've thought many aspects of leading an endgame shell through completely; I think you recognize this, too, or you wouldn't have made the OP.
 
Back
Top