Honor

[Nicolette]

Long Post - so I bolded the major points so all you TL;DR could skim it and keep your functional attention span intact. ><
Every so often I think about the concept of honor. It gets pretty intense for me... and always, afterwards, something happens to remind me that no matter how vaunted and worthwhile the concept of honor is, that the vast majority of people I meet or know either have no concept of honor at all, or behave dishonorably, intentionally, because they feel thats how the world works. Lewis Carroll once wrote in Peter Pan that the most shocking thing for Peter was unfairness. He (peter) couldnt understand it, it shocked him, and he always forgot about it.. because it was the end of innocence.. of trust.. of childhood. I think its more than that.
When someone behaves dishonorably it is inconceivable that they would intentionally choose such a path in life. Things such as Dua stealing what he "felt was owed him", or people acting like complete assholes (colbwa, seppeku, wsm) because they get off on being little shits and the attention they get from people who are drawn to sickness - who post either because they hope what they say will help them change, or because they want some attention too, and are jumping on the bandwagon. You would think.. at some point they would look at their behavior and go.. WTF.. when did I become an asshole? But NO.. they look and say hmph.. well guess im an asshole.. and they dont change... or they revel in it.. try to become the BIGGEST asshole, or the most blatant scammer, or the most sexist.. and its disgusting, and they just dont care. I remember the first time someone was a prick to me. They didnt have to be, I was trying to be nice to them, and all they wanted to be was an asshole... and they knew it. It was a game to them. Being without honor made them happy. It reminded me of the bad guy in a childs movie.. the one who never gets the point. The hero is grinning and has his friends who are honorable and the villian is being carted off to jail with a WTF look on his face because the point went over his head and off into the horizon.. I look at WSM and colbwa and such and wonder if in that theatre, watching the movie, one of the kids was thinking.. bah I wouldnt have gotten caught.. if maybe thats what made them into the people they are today. Because no matter what they say, if you are honorable in RL, youre going to be honorable online.. you cant divorce honor from your Self simply because your words are typeface instead of sound .
Anyway I guess the point is, i'm wondering if anyone out there values honor anymore.. or if everyone is of the opinion that you can never trust anyone, and that behaving with honor is something you can take or leave as the situation suits you.

 

[Strid]

Behave with honor and trust no one.

 

[Darkdante]

If you are of the opinion that you can trust everyone.

Then you are a fool.

 

[Darkdante]

If you live in a society that kills you if you behave dishonorably, honor works for eveyone.

If you live in a society that gives a chance to everyone, TRUE honor is something very few have.

It is something to look up to and admire. But if you give enough bad people a chance, trust is the only thing that suffers.

And trust is what honor is based on. IMO.

 

[Cix]

Long Post - so I bolded the major points so all you TL;DR could skim it and keep your functional attention span intact. ><
Every so often I think about the concept of honor. It gets pretty intense for me... and always, afterwards, something happens to remind me that no matter how vaunted and worthwhile the concept of honor is, that the vast majority of people I meet or know either have no concept of honor at all, or behave dishonorably, intentionally, because they feel thats how the world works. Lewis Carroll once wrote in Peter Pan that the most shocking thing for Peter was unfairness. He (peter) couldnt understand it, it shocked him, and he always forgot about it.. because it was the end of innocence.. of trust.. of childhood. I think its more than that.
When someone behaves dishonorably it is inconceivable that they would intentionally choose such a path in life. Things such as Dua stealing what he "felt was owed him", or people acting like complete assholes (colbwa, seppeku, wsm) because they get off on being little shits and the attention they get from people who are drawn to sickness - who post either because they hope what they say will help them change, or because they want some attention too, and are jumping on the bandwagon. You would think.. at some point they would look at their behavior and go.. WTF.. when did I become an asshole? But NO.. they look and say hmph.. well guess im an asshole.. and they dont change... or they revel in it.. try to become the BIGGEST asshole, or the most blatant scammer, or the most sexist.. and its disgusting, and they just dont care. I remember the first time someone was a prick to me. They didnt have to be, I was trying to be nice to them, and all they wanted to be was an asshole... and they knew it. It was a game to them. Being without honor made them happy. It reminded me of the bad guy in a childs movie.. the one who never gets the point. The hero is grinning and has his friends who are honorable and the villian is being carted off to jail with a WTF look on his face because the point went over his head and off into the horizon.. I look at WSM and colbwa and such and wonder if in that theatre, watching the movie, one of the kids was thinking.. bah I wouldnt have gotten caught.. if maybe thats what made them into the people they are today. Because no matter what they say, if you are honorable in RL, youre going to be honorable online.. you cant divorce honor from your Self simply because your words are typeface instead of sound .
Anyway I guess the point is, i'm wondering if anyone out there values honor anymore.. or if everyone is of the opinion that you can never trust anyone, and that behaving with honor is something you can take or leave as the situation suits you.

Lemme start off by saying that this is probably the only post on the flameboard that is ever going to make me think.
ok!

Well, reading over the entire post it doesn't seem to be about honor, rather than common decency, or lack of being a prick (You dont even have to be decent not to be a prick. Even the Mafia offered you a friendly ride in the car to the river before they murdered you)
So if we think of it that way, it might be better to ask what people think of becoming total asshats.

I once saw a pennyarcade comic, (dont remember URL to the specific comic or its name) but it read something along the lines of:

Normal person + Anonymity + Audience = Total asshole.

The reason they revel in being the biggest ass, is because the biggest ass gets the biggest audience, and nobody can really do anything about it; and it would be impossible to remove any piece of the equation to change it.

However in the case of Dua and the stolen SH, is in my opinion a question of Honor, but since we are able to think of one specific example, and not very many. (The only other I can think of off of the top of my head is Syliph and the Barone Corazza) And because a great deal of QCDNers spoke out against Dua in that thread it seems to me the Server has a good grasp on how to treat others.

Personally, I have made several minor transgressions. But I've never had a GM called on me, or make any long-lasting enemies with a few obvious exceptions (I'll leave you to decide who it could POSSIBLY be).
I give freely, I trust openly, do I trust everyone? Hell no! But the risks are low, at most I'm out some time, or possibly some gil.

 

[Nicolette]

Isnt the point of this community to let each other know who is a decent person, and who a complete waste of space? Isnt the point of this board to let everyone know when someone acts selfishly or dishonorably? I trust until ppl betray that trust, or prove themselves to be unworthy of being given trust. I know for certain that ppl on this game have trusted me.. and I have never betrayed that trust. I have honor. Thats more important to me than having some high pricetag virtual piece of data on ffxi will ever be.. but some people have lower standards.

 

[Miruyasha]

i'm one of the most honorable ppl i know IRL, and it shows in this game. part of the reason i chose samurai as my job of coice is because i have a deep respect for the real samurai of feudal japan and their emphasis on honor. part of the reason we have assholes is because they believe that their actions don't matter because this is a game. this is complete and utter bullshit. everyone on my FL is there b/c of how they acted: NOT like a dickhead. in order to get newhere in this game, u need to trust ppl. ptying, doing missions, quests, camping nm's, all this requires you to completely trust the person/people your doing them with, a successful outcome lies in their hands. this is all i have to say atm on this matter, and i'm sure ppl want to post their thoughts. good day to all you honorable ppl that are left.

 

[Darkdante]

Do people of HONOR flame each other?

 

[Cix]

Do people of HONOR flame each other?

Yes, :lol: a flame is sortof like a battle of wits, or in the case of WSM, a battle of spam; but not usually is a lasting hatred made by a flame alone, or a dishonorable person made by flaming.

 

[Mishaela]

Most people have an obsession with being the best...that being said, they might MPK, cheat, steal, and scam, if it gets them closer to being the best in the fastest way possible. They also may not help, even if in a simple way, if it'll profit themself in any way (see MPK/cheat/etc)

There's quite a few honorable people, just, finding em is a task in itself. I could name a few but it's sortof one of those "eye of the beholder" thingies..

 

[Princemercury]

i'm one of the most honorable ppl i know IRL.....

Anyone can say that about themselves, but one always supresses the unhonorable things they do.

 

[Reishu]

I agree with Ishaela, it's all the way you see it. Friends trust and stick up for each other, as a matter of unspoken honor.

I think that what's happened to Quetz is that honor kind of disappeared from the public, kind of like the Dodo... nobody thinks about it any more, and it's kind of just an entertaining thought to think "Once upon a time in the mythical land of Quetzalcoatl people honored each other without thinking of more than being nice..."

So many people quote the same things (mostly based on greed or interpersonal problems) about why morals are tossed out of the window. We've kind of become used to it i guess, but when someone is a complete ass just to be an ass, that's where the bad names on the server come from.

I personally don't care what people do until they are rude.

As for QCDN being used to help people know who's good and who's bad, just take one look at most of the flameboard topics to see people who get carried away with being full of themselves. At least i know who will/won't give me headaches

The OP was referring to the fact that people who don't care without honor tend to be more insensitive, rude, and if i dare say 馬鹿 (baka) than other people.

I play this game to have fun. People without honor tend to make this game a headache. I can do without headaches. My thoughts are as simple as that.

Orchidさん、　OPはほんとうにありがとうございます。

Honor is still here on Quetz, it just has to be found where it hides.

 

[Pompidou]

Honor is important, but honor doesn't have to be mutually exclusive from looking out for number one. Always keep promises. That's part of being honorable. Stand up for what's right. That's part of being honorable. Courtesy, respect - they're both part of being honorable. Honor shouldn't be mistaken for friendliness and other similar nice to have traits.

Blind trust, putting everyone else's needs before your own - those aren't traits of honor. Those are traits of a fool. You needn't trust everyone you meet to be honorable. You only have to be trustworthy yourself. Greed is hardly an honorable trait to have, but the difference between greed and getting what you need in a cut-throat, competitive world is a fine one indeed.

Being nice =/= being honorable. It's not "dishonorable" to charge for help. It's nice to help for free. It might be greedy to charge for help, but it's not dishonorable. Taking the gil and not helping is dishonorable. Getting the help and not paying is dishonorable. Honor is important. Unfortunately for many, making gil to support one's levelling is also important.

 

[Darkdante]

I think maybe the whole concept of Honor sometimes is misunderstood by everyone. I think some people here are confusing "Respect" with "Honor". Honor is like respect but its also ALOT MORE.

If "Honor" was practiced by everyone, and everyone was "Honorable". Would it really be something to strive for and to admire?

I think people in general tend to think the "impossible" and think "everyone" can be honorable, or even "the majority" of us.

After all "Honor" is in the eye of the beholder.

If it is, how can you have a world where everybody would see the majority of people having honor? That would be a world where everybody sees everything the same. And if you can't see as most people having honor how can you treat people with trust which honor demands among 2 people?

Actually in theory true HONOR should not depend on the trust of another. But if you keep getting burned would you continue to act honorably? Would anyone?

 

[wolfskymoon]

Practice what you preach. First of all orchid ,you don't know two shits about honor.If you did ,you won't desecrate my picture just like you did afew hrs ago. All i did was say what i think is true."Women play online games no where as close to men.And most girl chars are actually played by men,some of which pretend to be actually female in real life". I have proof to back it up. This is what i think if you have problem with it you try to prove me wrong.I never got personal and i never posted pics of anyone and fucking with them. But its funny how no one would comment on that since they are single minded zombies . .If you don't like what soemone says ,you can just say "I disagree" but no people have to go all out "Watha watha hes sexist watha watha" .So what is it that you want? You can call me an asshole and what ever you like but just like most of the board you don't even know what you are talking about.
And its a flameboard if you don't like what someone posts don't look at it. I wish i cared about it anymore but i don't. Sorry you can't make me cry or anything like that... or beg you for mecry or someshit like that. So watch it when u put my name in one of your stories next time.
A person doesn't become an asshole by expressing something in words on a public forum. You need to mpk,you need to train shit and you need to steal to become an asshole.Also you need to kick people out of parties to let friends in , leave when someone is close to level, to become an asshole. What about 100s of people who fake dc by pulling out the plug huh? i never even did that maybe i should start doing it toobecause it won't make a difference anyway. Maybe i should start kicking people based on their armor and become an elitist whose respected by gil buyers with no skill?.I think i got more honor than 90 percent of the server and i can give u 1 mil reasons why but i'd rather not.
Everyone has enemies and you can't expect people not to have any ,hence the reason there are features such as /ignore and /blist.An honorable person won't come to the flameboard since its meant to spread hate.. and people love watching other people getting flamed/looked down upon.Its just like school and work,where someone's downfall is entertainment to you (Sometimes).I bet my life that the main reason you created this thread was not to talk about honor,but just to flame more people or same people , because you think its more fun than watching t.v or doing something else.

 

[Darkdante]

Gotta admit that was pretty well said.

 

[hellstorm]

Isnt the point of this community to let each other know who is a decent person, and who a complete waste of space? Isnt the point of this board to let everyone know when someone acts selfishly or dishonorably? I trust until ppl betray that trust, or prove themselves to be unworthy of being given trust. I know for certain that ppl on this game have trusted me.. and I have never betrayed that trust. I have honor. Thats more important to me than having some high pricetag virtual piece of data on ffxi will ever be.. but some people have lower standards.

yes this would be so if i was valid but half the flame on the board are because lack of information. Saying that this peron did this to me but leaveing out key point that the accuse later confront to the accuser the the accuser conter by saying it still was not right then start the pages and pages of opinions and question of people who are just trying to put the puzzle out. now I would say if you are going to do a flame on some you should a say all the facts and B do it with a cool head and not a angry one
C remeber words can be forgoten both notes can always come back to haunt you.

i'm one of the most honorable ppl i know IRL, and it shows in this game. part of the reason i chose samurai as my job of coice is because i have a deep respect for the real samurai of feudal japan and their emphasis on honor. part of the reason we have assholes is because they believe that their actions don't matter because this is a game. this is complete and utter bullshit. everyone on my FL is there b/c of how they acted: NOT like a dickhead. in order to get newhere in this game, u need to trust ppl. ptying, doing missions, quests, camping nm's, all this requires you to completely trust the person/people your doing them with, a successful outcome lies in their hands. this is all i have to say atm on this matter, and i'm sure ppl want to post their thoughts. good day to all you honorable ppl that are left.

not saying that your not a person that belive in honor but a person of honor would never consider the selfs must honorable. and are you saying you dont consider a person honorable unless they have help you i think that a little taboo there. in my book a person i meet start off as a good person and i try to treat everyone with repect, even though who I dislike his ways i still treat with repect.
i knew before i join colbwa ls a couple months back that he had a bad past but everyone can change, he was a good person when i was in his ls he was trying to get a NA hnm/god ls for a long time. Then he did the worst thing he could have done join the like of the biggest mpking gilselling ls on this server, the day he did that was the day I left his ls and his old self started to show more and more after.

Do people of HONOR flame each other?

that a yes and no question
yes people with honor flame
no they dont flame in a attempt to cripple a person they flame because they trying to get a point across or warn others of them that are in term call "Notorious" for there acts.(must time these get out of hand though)

A person doesn't become an asshole by expressing something in words on a public forum. You need to mpk,you need to train shit and you need to steal to become an asshole.Also you need to kick people out of parties to let friends in , leave when someone is close to level, to become an asshole. What about 100s of people who fake dc by pulling out the plug huh? i never even did that maybe i should start doing it toobecause it won't make a difference anyway

yes this does not make a person a "asshole" but repect should be warranted on the boards as well as in game. as i said before what you post can come back to haunt you and appernt here it has. Practice what you preach valid saying here anouther treat others like you would like to be treated

the rest of what you said was well written i agree with wsm "except the part about men play better then weman" now alot of mithra are men atleast 50% of them me being 1. I play mithra because of the stats not because it female dam se never gave mantra and galka (no thanks)

in closing just like say few quotes
Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold

The age of chivalry is past. Bores have succeeded to dragons.
Charles Dickens

God creates men, but they choose each other.
Niccolo Machiavelli

 

[hellstorm]

knew before i join colbwa ls a couple months back that he had a bad past but everyone can change, he was a good person when i was in his ls he was trying to get a NA hnm/god ls for a long time. Then he did the worst thing he could have done join the like of the biggest mpking gilselling ls on this server, the day he did that was the day I left his ls and his old self started to show more and more after.

though i add to this because i wa a little vage.
colbwa can be a good person ive seen him be one, but when people keep the bashing and dont up even long after he stopped it dont give you much incintive to stop being an ass. i swear the colwba i knew when i join his ls and the colbwa he is today is to diffent people. at time he would actually start rumor to see how fast it took to spread to jueno ( and it didnt take long) since that time me and colbwa are no longer freinds, I would perfer it not to be that way because im just a type of person that try to find the good in everyone. currently i have 1 name on my blacklist and that because that person would not sending my tell ill prob unblacklist him next time i get on. He once gave me a tell after asking why I left his ls and i told him it was because he ally him self with mpk <iloveyousky> or what ever they call them self these days. He came back are you afreid of what people think of you. and i said no, but now looking back i should of said no im afreid of what i would think of myself. If he and his new ally are no longer mpking which i highly dought it "cudos on you" and i will not slap him like about 85% of server does, but what you did was wrong it being you only opsion or not and I will not be involved in your actions
that is why i left your ls.

on anouther note saw a mule in jueno sell 5 item together worth 60.3mil nice catch by a ls what was odd about them was they didnt speak much english so that leaves so speculation if it was a gil seller ls now you going to say he could have been jp, but if that was so he would have said the mesage in bot languages instead of just english so if they had 18 people they neted in 3,335,000 apeice nice. think mule was eka

 

[Nicolette]

Practice what you preach. First of all orchid ,you don't know two shits about honor.If you did ,you won't desecrate my picture just like you did afew hrs ago.

First.. your picture isnt sacred so I cant "desecrate" it. Second it was humor, and in keeping with the thread so get over yourself.

All i did was say what i think is true."Women play online games no where as close to men.And most girl chars are actually played by men,some of which pretend to be actually female in real life". I have proof to back it up.

All you did was insult all female gamers, and most females in general with chauvanistic sexist views on the nature of women and with comments about their worth relative to their age and marriage status, as if being married somehow conveyed worth. Since it doesnt you dont have "proof" to back up anything. Your assertions on the number of female gamers to male are quite beside the point.

This is what i think if you have problem with it you try to prove me wrong.I never got personal and i never posted pics of anyone and fucking with them. But its funny how no one would comment on that since they are single minded zombies

And its funny how you dont like people to disagree with you, but anything you disagree with is desecration and when ppl dont take offense on your behalf theyre "zombies."

If you don't like what soemone says ,you can just say "I disagree"

Sure I could. But then again i'm one of those evil minded individuals who try to help people I think are misguided, and saying "I disagree" and ignoring them doesn't accomplish anything.

but no people have to go all out "Watha watha hes sexist watha watha" .So what is it that you want? You can call me an asshole and what ever you like but just like most of the board you don't even know what you are talking about.

I know exactly what i'm talking about. I'm talking with the person who calls themselves Wolfskymoon and has presented a number of sexist and chauvanistic opinions in his own name as his own views to which I disagreed, and who has come here, fresh from that post to attack me under the heading of honor, but without contributing anything to the view of honor he holds save to think that I dont have any and that he does.

And its a flameboard if you don't like what someone posts don't look at it. I wish i cared about it anymore but i don't.

Because ignoring a disease makes it go away. Riiiight.

Sorry you can't make me cry or anything like that... or beg you for mecry or someshit like that. So watch it when u put my name in one of your stories next time.

This just screams child abuse... sometimes I wish I never took child psych.

A person doesn't become an asshole by expressing something in words on a public forum.

Actually.. if youre an asshole in public youre probably an asshole in private.

You need to mpk,you need to train shit and you need to steal to become an asshole.Also you need to kick people out of parties to let friends in , leave when someone is close to level, to become an asshole. What about 100s of people who fake dc by pulling out the plug huh? i never even did that maybe i should start doing it too

because it won't make a difference anyway. Maybe i should start kicking people based on their armor and become an elitist whose respected by gil buyers with no skill?.

Being an asshole and being a bad player are different. The unfortunate thing for you is that being an asshole here just hurts your ability to be a good player in the game.

I think i got more honor than 90 percent of the server and i can give u 1 mil reasons why but i'd rather not.

Your post isnt about honor, its about yourself. Unsurprisingly.

Everyone has enemies and you can't expect people not to have any ,hence the reason there are features such as /ignore and /blist.

Enemy is a bit strong of a word to use here. Being an asshole doesnt make you my enemy. It just makes you an asshole.

An honorable person won't come to the flameboard since its meant to spread hate.. and people love watching other people getting flamed/looked down upon.

I think the flameboard is meant to spread knowledge. Sure the OP doesnt usually tell the whole story. But read the whole thread and you can usually get a good picture of who was in the wrong.

Its just like school and work,where someone's downfall is entertainment to you (Sometimes)

Another insightful view into your personality WSM.

I bet my life that the main reason you created this thread was not to talk about honor,but just to flame more people or same people , because you think its more fun than watching t.v or doing something else.

Hmm. Since it actually is about honor and I was really pleased with everyones posts before yours since they were on-topic I guess I own your life. Too bad I cannot simply tell you to live it with honor now.. since I dont think you even understand the concept. I pity you, but I wont control you. You can have your life, such as it is, back.

 

[Nicolette]

Just a note, I'd prefer if this thread returned to discussion of honor and it's worth rather than wsm's hijack. Thanks in advance. This is too important a subject to me to let get sidetracked.