Feedback I Cannot be the only one who feels this way

[Sanoske]

Sure may be, but would you turn-tail and run?

If I was the type of person to turn and run, I wouldn't have posted the crap that I did. I actually think it will be amusing to see who decides not to drop it, and begins bringing it up in totally unrelated RL threads and such.

 

[Morcheeba]

If I was the type of person to turn and run, I wouldn't have posted the crap that I did.

This is why I think assisting in ostracizing and marking 'those so bold' will only help to advise the community in 'who you are'. Because I don't see our actions driving 'those so bold' off QCDN. Again, I never agreed with banning 'those so bold'.

EDIT: .. Morwen's idea for marking such people is wonderful imo.. !!! Vote Morwen !!!

 

[Makelith]

They broke the rules in game, which is a little vague scribble from SE. Not the forum rules. Don't punish someone for breaking the laws of another entity.

I'd hardly say they are vague, but this is the most important post so far in this thread for me. There was a rule that i've been the better part of a day looking for that says, "Things that happen in game should not, and will not, have any bearing on how we do things on QCDN".

 

[Sneakypants]

I'm not bitter and petty at all, I just dont think that your actions should go unnoticed or passed off as 'Oh, its ok' by the site.

Bitter and petty are just opinions. People maintain that image of you due to views you express, just as you maintain that others' opinions are wrong, and I and everyone else do the same. Blah blah blah blah blah...What else is new?

As far as not letting this type of behavior go unnoticed or merely passed off, it seems this thread and the FB thread do a good job of handling that in a very similar fashion to Chasym's thread. And look where he's at now. Still regarded as a hacker/botter/distributor of hacks and bots...Why would Sanoske's situation be treated differently? Much of the community feels very strongly against his behavior and they will forever hold it against him. Also, in Chasym's situation, it seemed more people were upset with that type of behavior compared to Sano's recent behavior, and still with Chasym's behavior there were those that apparently didn't care.

People can harbor whatever feelings they like. The fact that someone has come clean makes them honest, at least in the end. It allows the community to pass judgment as it warms their heart...Or makes it frost over a bit more. Point being, the cries for some additional measures are really unnecessary. The damage to Sanoske has been done. He's already done with FFXI and doesn't seem to have much interest in browsing those forums anyway. Do you see Chasym trolling the FFXI boards much? No. Not really. Perhaps we could dig up an instance or two, but is his mere presence an issue? Is it an insult? How and why? If that's the case and we're (I use "we" as loosely as it can be used) out to burn this witch for good, then I would agree that a permaban is in store. If we're just out to burn the witch in the slightest (again, I don't really see the reason to do so as the damages have basically been self-inflicted already...Nothing more will change by barring Sano from areas of the forum finds relatively uninteresting) then blocking FFXI areas must be necessary! /sarcasm tagorz

Anyone who comes clean about these things faces the inevitable backlash from the community. I spoke out strongly against Chasym, and still maintain the same opinion today as I did then as evidenced in my latest posts regarding Sano's situation. Hacking and Botting, and especially promoting and distributing hacks and bots causes far more issues for this game and those that play it than someone selling off their gil.

While Sanoske's fundamental action of drumming up gil to be used by RMT (to be bought by other "honest and legitimate" players) is exactly what RMT's main role is. On the other hand, Sanoske didn't act at all like RMT in all the years he maintained the account aside from selling off the last of his gil. He didn't hack accounts. He didn't MPK. He didn't harrass. He was helpful to others for no reward. Etc.

As much as I don't like the idea of retroactive "punishment", if something changes for Sanoske, then it sure as hell better apply to others who have already committed similar, or really, worse behavior than Sanoske has. See: Chasym. If something will change, in the form of a new law of this land, the best bet would be to etch it in stone, and make it well announced so that in the future, anyone will know exactly what they will be dealing with and getting themselves into. It's only fair. The only thing people could expect, unless something changes, is to be judged mostly negatively and generally ostracized from the community at large. People deserve to know what the consequences of their actions will be as it usually dictates their actions. I referenced this in earlier posts as well. Make changes if you must, for future incidents, and let's all move on.

 

[Rappa]

Actually I have one legitimate question to bring up here that relates to Chasym/Sanoske/etc and/or anyone in the future that admits to hacking/gilselling/etc. How are users going to be treated who disagree with what they do and bring it up in topics outside of the flameboard? Say for example there's some topic and Sano posts then someone replies "Well, that's to be expected from a gilseller". Is that considered a flame? I mean, he did come here and brag about it.

 

[Morwen]

Oh there is no way I would want only Sano to get this alone, should something to the effect of my suggestion go through. I would hope it would be immediately applied to admitted botters, hackers and gil buyers/sellers alike. I'm not trying to apply this to only Sano, as that wouldn't be fair at all.

 

[Sneakypants]

Actually I have one legitimate question to bring up here that relates to Chasym/Sanoske/etc and/or anyone in the future that admits to hacking/gilselling/etc. How are users going to be treated who disagree with what they do and bring it up in topics outside of the flameboard? Say for example there's some topic and Sano posts then someone replies "Well, that's to be expected from a gilseller". Is that considered a flame? I mean, he did come here and brag about it.

I don't think their honesty warrants pot-shots like that. It's one thing to state it as a fact, and another to essentially claim their opinions are worthless due to their past actions. That comes off like a flame, or at least a bait.

 

[Rappa]

Well, that's why I'm asking. I don't think mods/admins should ban people who admit to hacking/cheating our game, but at the same time I don't think they should be protected or coddled either. In my opinion, if they are willing to spit in our faces by not only admitting to what they did but going so far as to brag about it, they should be free-game for return-fire at any time. I can imagine some people actually getting RO'd or banned for repeatedly calling out people who hacked or sold gil and that just seems wrong.

 

[Morcheeba]

I don't think their honesty warrants pot-shots like that. It's one thing to state it as a fact, and another to essentially claim their opinions are worthless due to their past actions. That comes off like a flame, or at least a bait.

Right so instead of that constantly happening which is likely to continue, AND not fair, QCDN marks such members that have outed themselves so the community doesn't feel it necessary to point out.

Again this would advise all new members of specific members status within the community and outlooks on game principals and rules.

 

[Skaw]

Actually I have one legitimate question to bring up here that relates to Chasym/Sanoske/etc and/or anyone in the future that admits to hacking/gilselling/etc. How are users going to be treated who disagree with what they do and bring it up in topics outside of the flameboard? Say for example there's some topic and Sano posts then someone replies "Well, that's to be expected from a gilseller". Is that considered a flame? I mean, he did come here and brag about it.

If calling someone an idiot for making an idiotic statement is enough to warrant an infraction for "flamebaiting," then logically that would as well.

 

[Sneakypants]

Right so instead of that constantly happening which is likely to continue, AND not fair, QCDN marks such members that have outed themselves so the community doesn't feel it necessary to point out.

Again this would advise all new members of specific members status within the community and outlooks on game principals and rules.

I don't disagree with that completely, but I still find implementing any kind of marking to be unnecessary. New people know about Chasym. Down the road, new people will know of Sanoske. Nothing more needs to be done that they haven't already done to themselves.

 

[Javir]

If that's the case, deleting the GT thread would be the first step. Then newcomers would only be able to read the flame, in which I am clearly marked as the bad guy. So QCDN retains a clear face.

As far as the ostracizing, there are definitely a good number of people who would take up pitchforks and run me out if it were possible. Not saying everyone, especially since discussion in this thread has been much more civilized and constructive (for the most part) than anything else said on the topic.

I think that would be the worst step. Especially if these guys honestly want to make a case about it. It should be moved or possibly even merge your OP into the first part of the Flame, as a worst case scenario. Not that I condone the message of your post, I don't think it should go away to protect over sensitivity (and if you don't like me making that statement, be sure I'll use nearly every post i've made and not had a response to).

I'm not bitter and petty at all, I just dont think that your actions should go unnoticed or passed off as 'Oh, its ok' by the site. I'm not exactly sure you should be restricted from FFXI areas either, considering you have extensive knowledge in crafting (thats how this whole convesation got started in the first place) and if you wanted to share it, I think you should be able to.

Sure may be, but would you turn-tail and run?

EDIT: Marking you and everyone else as bold to state such facts just assists in ostracizing you, as ultimately you and everyone else have done it to yourselves.

Extreme example here but, child-molesters are marked as such and the information is made public to communities and surrounding areas where that person is residing. That's to give the community a heads up, give possible home buyers the information to make an education decision on buying in that community and residents the knowledge so they can avoid you if they want.

That's all.

This is certainly an interesting way to consider how to proceed that people on both sides could agree with. Create a user status much like read-only (not that they'd be similarly restricted) that indicates their proven RMT/Hacker status. Just make clear guidelines to what that constitutes. Is doing anything against the FFXI TOS enough to qualify you (90% of the board would prolly fit for just using Windower) or is it for things that aren't only against the FFXI TOS but also have a direct or indirect harmful impact on other FFXI players (which to me would include RMT/tools that aide directly or indirectly in claims).

Just a thought, and much better solution than haphazardly deleting posts involving these issues (and yes, I know Arct already said he had no intentions of deleting posts in that fashion).

 

[Morcheeba]

I don't disagree with that completely, but I still find implementing any kind of marking to be unnecessary. New people know about Chasym. Down the road, new people will know of Sanoske. Nothing more needs to be done that they haven't already done to themselves.

Okay Sneaky the only question I have is

How do people know of Chasym and how WILL people know of Sanoske?

I for one learned of Chasym by the numerous times "the deeds" he's done were brought up after the fact. Which is what you are saying we should avoid, the 'pot-shots', which btw I agree shoudn't happen.

 

[Morcheeba]

This is certainly an interesting way to consider how to proceed that people on both sides could agree with. Create a user status much like read-only (not that they'd be similarly restricted) that indicates their proven RMT/Hacker status. Just make clear guidelines to what that constitutes. Is doing anything against the FFXI TOS enough to qualify you (90% of the board would prolly fit for just using Windower) or is it for things that aren't only against the FFXI TOS but also have a direct or indirect harmful impact on other FFXI players (which to me would include RMT/tools that aide directly or indirectly in claims).

Just a thought, and much better solution than haphazardly deleting posts involving these issues (and yes, I know Arct already said he had no intentions of deleting posts in that fashion).

Again I want to advise that was Morwens suggestion not my own, I just happen to agree with it whole-heartedly.

 

[Sneakypants]

Okay Sneaky the only question I have is

How do people know of Chasym and how WILL people know of Sanoske?

I for one learned of Chasym by the numerous times "the deeds" he's done were brought up after the fact. Which is what you are saying we should avoid, the 'pot-shots', which btw I agree shoudn't happen.

People will always talk of them. That's just a fact of life. In talking, pot-shots aren't necessary to learn of what they've done. Folks can speak factually about FFXI history and of individuals without fearthat they are baiting. When statements are made as roundabout ways to slander, however, that's what is uncalled for. It's a bait like any other. If Sanoske is allowed to remain at QCDN, he is a user like any other and deserves the same lowest common denominator of respect rights that we all receive.

Edit: In addition to general talk of the town, if one were so inclined, they could inform newcomers about any individual "for their own good".

 

[Skaw]

Is doing anything against the FFXI TOS enough to qualify you (90% of the board would prolly fit for just using Windower) or is it for things that aren't only against the FFXI TOS but also have a direct or indirect harmful impact on other FFXI players (which to me would include RMT/tools that aide directly or indirectly in claims).

Anything a console player cannot do should be considered cheating. This doesn't include Windower, because frankly, a Computer is supposed to multitask and taking that away is beyond retarded. But Windower scripts would be, so all those UI ability timers and one button-all slots equipment macros(even programmable keyboard macros) are cheating. Sure, they aren't hurting anyone, but they're still an advantage over other people you play with that can't do the same thing.

If PC and Console players were put on seperate servers, that'd be different. It's why WoW, WAR, and EQ UI addons aren't against the ToS - everyone has access to them. Whether or not they choose to use them is a different subject.

 

[Morcheeba]

People will always talk of them. That's just a fact of life. In talking, pot-shots aren't necessary to learn of what they've done. Folks can speak factually about FFXI history and of individuals without fearthat they are baiting. When statements are made as roundabout ways to slander, however, that's what is uncalled for. It's a bait like any other. If Sanoske is allowed to remain at QCDN, he is a user like any other and deserves the same lowest common denominator of respect rights that we all receive.

Sure. Ultimately the actions of Sanoske as well as others that have shoved such information in this communities face have disrespected this forum as a whole? Least that's what I think.

If people have Banners celebrating their popularity within the community, people have coloured names advising their current restrictions or statuses within the community (outlining their bad behavior) then why not statuses outlining the general disappointment the community has towards so-and-so's actions? EDIT: Actions, not OUTLOOKS, but actions!

I don't like disrespecting people. Respect is given when it's earned though right?

Edit: In addition to general talk of the town, if one were so inclined, they could inform newcomers about any individual "for their own good".

Ahhh now there we are, perhaps a notice board the sole purpose being listing such offenders? That would pretty much be the same thing though eh.

 

[Malagra]

If you start banning/singling out/moderating/discriminating against people who have gone against FFXI ToS, then you have to do it for Windower as well as RMT or botting. It's third party after all. If you ask the GMs, using Winamp is 3rd party in relation to FFXI, so it's against the ToS.

If you start doing things on the forum in regards to rules that are completely arbitrary to the forums, where does it stop? Ok, so put hackers, botters, RMT into a group with a banner or some different colour that denotes them as such, as a warning to other forum users that these people are bad. Ok, well then how about people who d/c from parties, who lot and bail on XXNMs, anyone who's ever screwed over anyone else with anything in game? Sure it's not against game ToS, but if we're warning about one group of people, shouldn't we be warning against these? Isn't this really just a new version of that Neighbourhood Watch thing that failed so miserably?

What about the WoW and WAR forums? Would the same sort of system be in place for those?

Point is, where do you stop once you start changing status on the forums based of events that occured in game? If you say only stuff that violates FFXI ToS, A) Better do it for every single violation, regardless of "seriousness" (windower as well as rmt) and B) What about the system that's already in place in game to deal with in game violations?

There's a system in place to deal with in-game violations in game. And there's a system for dealing with forum violations, in the forums. And they really don't overlap, and well they shouldn't since they're seperate after all.

If it was an official forum run by SE, then I'd be for something like this. But this is an unofficial, user run forum. What you do in game does not equal what you do on the forums. Any cases of flaming or flamebaiting should be handled just like any other case. The userbase's respect for you may change, but your actual status on the boards shouldn't. Again, this sounds exactly like the Neighbourhood Watch thing.

 

[Skaw]

What about the WoW and WAR forums? Would the same sort of system be in place for those?

Anyone who buys gold or cheats in WoW or WAR deserve to be ostracized beyond belief already. Unlike FFXI and other archaic MMO models, you're not being punished while playing, and money is easy enough to come by that you'll always have enough. Cheating in those games is just laughable.

 

[Sneakypants]

Sure. Ultimately the actions of Sanoske as well as others that have shoved such information in this communities face have disrespected this forum as a whole? Least that's what I think.

If people have Banners celebrating their popularity within the community, people have coloured names advising their current restrictions or statuses within the community (outlining their bad behavior) then why not statuses outlining the general disappointment the community has towards so-and-so's actions? EDIT: Actions, not OUTLOOKS, but actions!

I don't like disrespecting people. Respect is given when it's earned though right?




Ahhh now there we are, perhaps a notice board the sole purpose being listing such offenders? That would pretty much be the same thing though eh.

Ever really been disrespected? Literally been spit in the face by someone? I have. And by someone I know a whole lot better than anyone here knows Sanoske. This is very different. Even when I was all up in arms over Chasym's stuff, it was VERY different.

Again, I really do see any official action necessary. However, a separate notice board or thread (Crime and Punishment good enough, just sticky these?? Not like we have so many.) would be less action, but still action. If anything I'd side with this idea over others. This would allow those who give a crap to check into who's who on said notorious list. Those who don't care never have to bother with it.

To the bolded, I agree that a certain level of respect is earned. However, at QCDN everyone has the same rights and lowest common denominator of respect, unless they are on R.O. or temp ban or something...To offer anyone less respect than the minimal that everyone should expect here invites action against you. A basic level of respect doesn't mean you have to approve of an individual. It doesn't mean you have to agree with them, or even pay them any mind at all. In fact, if someone is not the kind of person you like or approve of, put them on the pay no mind list. There's even an ignore feature should one need a little help in paying no mind.