Feedback I Cannot be the only one who feels this way

[Morcheeba]

I think we as a community should ourselves ostracize them for their actions to the point where they don't really feel welcomed enough to stay here.

Unfortunately I don't see this happening.

I don't think banning these people are the answer. They're making themselves out to be asshole/hero's depending on where you stand on the issues at hand. In hopes that people will stand their ground, let 'em have their forum access, let them bury themselves.

I don't think THIS community will stick to their guns. Many are fickle, many are flighty and from day to day can't decide whether they like said person or want them publicly hanged. I can always hope.

 

[Lenneth]

Contrary to my obviously stated stance in the Sanoske flame, I do NOT think people should be banned for flaunting their disregard for the law. However, I think we as a community should ourselves ostracize them for their actions to the point where they don't really feel welcomed enough to stay here, rather than celebrate what they did as "cool" or "awesome". We shouldn't need the admins and mods doing this for us, to be honest.

But as the threads which have caused me to take up this cause have proven to us many people simply don't care and will pat people who made a few bucks by making hacks or selling gil, the same thing we condemn others for based simply on popularity. It is indeed a bad influence on the server as a whole and rather offensive to those of us who still like to care. We shouldn't need mods, but the sad truth is we really do.

I mean... otherwise people would just crap threads all the time? amirite kotsu?

 

[Rappa]

Unfortunately I don't see this happening.

I don't either. After I saw people say it's more important to ignore that your friend is breaking the law than tell them to stop or to report them to the authorities, I pretty much lost all hope in this place. Being a true friend means knowing when to step in and tell your friend they are doing something wrong, not to ignore it and most certainly not to praise it. The whole "it's just RMT, nothing serious" argument is even worse.

Again though, if our community here says RMT is a-okay, I don't think the mods or admins should make the contrary decision for them.

 

[Princemercury]

I read over the threads quickly, Sanoske's original GT thread, either he got banned, decided to quit in the middle of the month or whatever is his decision was posted and he threw in a little "lol" with screen shots of the rl money he made. People then followed with the usual "that's not cool" replies since it was a GT thread.

No forum rules were broken there on anyone's part and it was closed before things got out of hand which was a good decision and as far as it should go I think.


Diamond's FB post is also well warranted, posting about the community's general views on RMT, when a "friend" does it, it's ok etc. The rest of the thread is basically just a discussion on why people agree or disagree with RMT which is what we all can relate to.

Some people believe it's the time you're selling, some people see it as illegal and selling property that's not intellectually yours and because people who sell game items for RM are frowned upon.

OP of this thread has made it clear, you're obviously on the side that frowns upon RMT. This doesn't mean everything you disagree with should be censored on the forums or banned. Does this mean everyone on QCDN who supports RMT or does RMT should be questioned and be placed on a limited access list? I think that's a bit absurd.

I see your point about how it's morally incorrect to brag about doing something that most people find unappealing. But the locked thread in GT and a second post in FB I believe is the correct way to handle problems on this forum. People have different views about everything not limited to RMT. Obviously your opinion just sways in one direction really far on the socially correct side.

If anything, you can use this experience as proof that a majority of people complain about moot points when it comes to RMT. And that the same people are actually okay with it. The no edit rule on the FB makes this a nice record keeper as well.

This is almost like the time when we went through a phase where people started selling sky pop items. Linkshells had so many items, they had nothing to do with them but to sell them. People complained it was immoral to sell them because it was something "RMT" would do and transactions were usually done under the table. But today you see it everywhere. A few players have so much gil, they have nothing to do with it, they sell it for money.

I don't know how many ways you can say "I don't agree with this" but that seems to be your only defense just like people who say "There's nothing wrong with it". In the end, it is just a game. But it's also a community where we build a second life per say and friendships. Someone has supposedly come out and gave everyone the middle finger about it, that's their prerogative.

You're carrying on like Sanoske is consistently bragging about it and should be kicked off the face of this earth and how about wrong it is, which is not what he's doing. Eg. my pedophile thread when we found out a user on the forums was a pedo, that thread was deleted because it was RL personal information and it was extremely distasteful and it broke RL laws. Thread deleted. Sanoske hasn't been rude to you or anyone on this forum about what he did, he didn't break any RL laws so when people tell you to get over it, I agree.

Same goes for everyone else with that view. Get over it. No one needs to be banned, censored, or locked out unless they're breaking forum rules, which is obviously not happening.

 

[Lenneth]

I read over the threads quickly, Sanoske's original GT thread, either he got banned, decided to quit in the middle of the month or whatever is his decision was posted and he threw in a little "lol" with screen shots of the rl money he made. People then followed with the usual "that's not cool" replies since it was a GT thread.

No forum rules were broken there on anyone's part and it was closed before things got out of hand which was a good decision and as far as it should go I think.


Diamond's FB post is also well warranted, posting about the community's general views on RMT, when a "friend" does it, it's ok etc. The rest of the thread is basically just a discussion on why people agree or disagree with RMT which is what we all can relate to.

Some people believe it's the time you're selling, some people see it as illegal and selling property that's not intellectually yours and because people who sell game items for RM are frowned upon.

OP of this thread has made it clear, you're obviously on the side that frowns upon RMT. This doesn't mean everything you disagree with should be censored on the forums or banned. Does this mean everyone on QCDN who supports RMT or does RMT should be questioned and be placed on a limited access list? I think that's a bit absurd.

I see your point about how it's morally incorrect to brag about doing something that most people find unappealing. But the locked thread in GT and a second post in FB I believe is the correct way to handle problems on this forum. People have different views about everything not limited to RMT. Obviously your opinion just sways in one direction really far on the socially correct side.

If anything, you can use this experience as proof that a majority of people complain about moot points when it comes to RMT. And that the same people are actually okay with it. The no edit rule on the FB makes this a nice record keeper as well.

This is almost like the time when we went through a phase where people started selling sky pop items. Linkshells had so many items, they had nothing to do with them but to sell them. People complained it was immoral to sell them because it was something "RMT" would do and transactions were usually done under the table. But today you see it everywhere. A few players have so much gil, they have nothing to do with it, they sell it for money.

I don't know how many ways you can say "I don't agree with this" but that seems to be your only defense just like people who say "There's nothing wrong with it". In the end, it is just a game. But it's also a community where we build a second life per say and friendships. Someone has supposedly come out and gave everyone the middle finger about it, that's their prerogative.

You're carrying on like Sanoske is consistently bragging about it and should be kicked off the face of this earth and how about wrong it, which is not what he's doing. Eg. my pedophile thread when we found out a user on the forums was a pedo, that thread was deleted because it was RL personal information and it was extremely distasteful and it broke RL laws. Thread deleted. Sanoske hasn't been rude to you or anyone on this forum about what he did, he didn't break any RL laws so when people tell you to get over it, I agree.

Same goes for everyone else with that view. Get over it. No one needs to be banned, censored, or locked out unless they're breaking forum rules, which is obviously not happening.

You see, your right. Its not against the rules but what you seem to miss is that this thread is
trying to make it against the rules (well those who agree with it anyways)

Edit note: why does everyone get the impression that I'm getting overly concerned like ones of those people from one of those churches that pickets things like homosexuality? I Simply have an opinion that I'm willing to argue about. Yes I don't like RMT, i have nothing against sano/chas/odon before they did that, hell even after. But my problem lies with that they did, and how everyone reacted. Don't agree? well I'll try and change your mind because that's how I am, but its really no skin off my back.

 

[Princemercury]

You see, your right. Its not against the rules but what you seem to miss is that this thread is trying to make it against the rules (well those who agree with it anyways)

Oh ok. You want to amend the rules.

So everyone who has done RMT should have limited access to the forums? That would be quite unfair to the people who actually get punished for it since 50% of the people who use this site has either bought gil or sold their accounts. I see what you're trying to do, but I think it's a bit out of reach~.

 

[Morcheeba]

Oh ok. You want to amend the rules.

The main reason I don't think this is feasible is bc the mods would have quite the task of scanning recently banned as well as what, filtering through claims people make on each other?

Not only would it be extremely time consuming but as redundant as AR, paper in paper out and never ending.

I wouldn't ask this of them. It's a public community, and already more of a job than it's worth at times.

 

[Lenneth]

Oh ok. You want to amend the rules.

So everyone who has done RMT should have limited access to the forums? That would be quite unfair to the people who actually get punished for it since 50% of the people who use this site has either bought gil or sold their accounts. I see what you're trying to do, but I think it's a bit out of reach~.

Well I would really prefer to think its less then 50%, though maybe I'm just being hopeful. I really doubt mods would bother going back into the archives and ban everyone whos admitted to hacking/RMT but I would like to think that they would be willing to change the rules to at least be starting after this event as obviously many people feel that its an unwelcomed aspect of QCDN (the glorification of hacking/RMT I mean, if your found out that you do it and are generally sorry and do not glorify it then I feel that being found out is punishment enough, lol)

PS Recent I hacked/RMTed threads would have to be deleted imo though.

 

[Miros]

Oh ok. You want to amend the rules.

So everyone who has done RMT should have limited access to the forums? That would be quite unfair to the people who actually get punished for it since 50% of the people who use this site has either bought gil or sold their accounts. I see what you're trying to do, but I think it's a bit out of reach~.

I think he means the people who have tossed it in people's faces. Much like the thread was intended to.

After I saw people say it's more important to ignore that your friend is breaking the law than tell them to stop or to report them to the authorities, I pretty much lost all hope in this place.

Bingo. I expected more of this board then to have so many people cheering for him.

 

[Grandphoenix]

This really does seem to be polar opposites you have people who have little to no money all the time compared to the people who were multimillionaires and then we have people who barely play the game along with these 30~40 hour + a week players.

Is it envy of barely being able to afford food far parties when there's a guy selling his millions or something? This games not dead yet to where SE doesn't care completely but perhaps one day will be..Have you guys even been on Diablo 2 lately or much of those older mmo's it's fairly unregulated.

People expecting things from the board, like it's their kid or something, is kind of taking the game to seriously like people have been saying.

If you're up in arms over this crap then perhaps it might be time to go outside, or even turn on the news where you can see even the real world isn't the happy ball of joy you'd like it to be. If life isn't going to be 100% don't expect a game that is seen to more of these hardcore players as a second life, also ran by humans to be much better.

 

[Airou]

I agree with the OP, people who openly and proove (As sano did with SS's) they have cheated or RMTed should be banned. At the very least from all FFXI related areas. If they wanna keep in touch with friends let them PM people on their Friend Lists ONLY.

Having someone make a thread admiting to it, and receive no reprecussions makes it seem like we condone RMT and Cheaters, and i think its safe to say the majority of our community does not (Or says they dont atleast).

I think it should be made clear that we do not condone this type of in game behavior. Just like people wouldnt allow a cheater, or someone who screws people over in game constantly in their LS, we shouldnt let people who cheat run around our community.

Now if these people are to be kept within QCDN, then it should state somewhere on this site that we're okay with having all kinds of people as members and that we dont completely abide by the cheating aspect of the ToS.

If someone from another server comes and visits this site, they can get the idea that we're open to RMT and Botters, i dont think anyone would want to be a part of that. This could also attract more of each kind, so long as they maintain a good rep with the people on QCDN, theyll be fine right?

 

[Airou]

Sorry for double post:


Not to mention, this topic is diving much of the boards, and it can be seen on other posts in other threads were people are a bit angry with this situation to the point it can affect others/the rest of the boards.

I think leadership (Mods) should take a stand and make a decision on this one way or the other so that people can accept it, deal with it, and move on.

Edit: Also, for people who are defending their friends. They made a choice to add to the RMT in this game which can hurt our experience, they didnt choose it because they didnt like us, it wasnt personal it was just business. However, us banning them would also not be personal, just whats best for the image of the community.

I personally dont dislike either Sanoske or Chasym.

 

[Javir]

You see, your right. Its not against the rules but what you seem to miss is that this thread is
trying to make it against the rules (well those who agree with it anyways)

Edit note: why does everyone get the impression that I'm getting overly concerned like ones of those people from one of those churches that pickets things like homosexuality? I Simply have an opinion that I'm willing to argue about. Yes I don't like RMT, i have nothing against sano/chas/odon before they did that, hell even after. But my problem lies with that they did, and how everyone reacted. Don't agree? well I'll try and change your mind because that's how I am, but its really no skin off my back.

The first bolded part and the second bolded part don't coincide with the frequency or the tone of some of your posts on the matter. If you wanted simply to voice your opinion, yet don't care beyond being heard, why fight so hard? by all means, fight, but don't play it off with these lame excuses.

I approve 100% of your opinion. I even agree that you should be able to protect yourself from such things, but not to the point that it gets censored out from everyone's purview. This coincides with the second bolded part, you get your opinion on the matter, but what you suggest makes it so you no longer get opinions when you allow them to censor. The only reason censorship should exist is if it causes direct harm to someone who has no choice in the matter. If someone makes an RL threat against you, you could be harmed and have no choice so it should be removed and threats addressed appropriately.

If you want, try to report Sano to POL, they are the authorities in this case, go for it. Otherwise if we say as a society (the society of QCDN), that its not acceptable, then the society should make the choice to weed these people out. Cause if you win, god forbid anyone post a pic where they have TParty from Windower turned on. Because I fully expect that to fall under this. You can't have one thing and excuse another and showing any blatant sign of 3rd party program is just as illegal as saying "I sell gil".

Do you see how this can get blown out of proportions? Do you see how it is like picketing against one group (illegal or not)? All it takes is one person to start challenging other's beliefs and saying that because its not what they believe it should be barred. Now, you are right, this is hardly as serious as the battles faced by homosexuals despite your opinion on that topic. But the mentality works the same way.

I think he means the people who have tossed it in people's faces. Much like the thread was intended to.



Bingo. I expected more of this board then to have so many people cheering for him.

I agree that its disappointing. I dislike all aspects of gil selling/buying. And I am all for people having the chance to post their disdain, but we lose that freedom if we stop people from being able to "burn bridges" as Sanoske did. If it comes to where we choose to limit their access in the future for making those posts, then that's fine. They have a choice, but whether or not they can be punished for it at all, they posts should go unchallenged as far as locks or deletes go until it violates some other rule.

 

[chinis]

At what point did this go from game to lifestyle? Obviously you're offended to the very essence of your being to care that much, right? I mean, this is a game. RMT will always be there. They were there at Day 1, I still functioned. They're still here now, and I can still function. Who really cares? It's just a game; I think that it's being taken too serious.

It's like sports. What happens when someone gets caught cheating after they already won or set the record or whatever? They get banned/shunned/humiliated. It's the same thing. Then again I use windower for forced lighting so I guess I shouldn't talk, lol.

 

[Morcheeba]

It's like sports. What happens when someone gets caught cheating after they already won or set the record or whatever? They get banned/shunned/humiliated. It's the same thing. Then again I use windower for forced lighting so I guess I shouldn't talk, lol.

Goodness, wait for the axe. If I'm correct that is also against the ToS.. so you should also be banned. It may not be as 'serious' in the eyes of the community, I KNOW shittons of ppl use windower. However breaking ToS is breaking ToS.

People will pick that apart too.

So what say you QCDN community? Should we ban Chinis for admitting to breaking the ToS.

Sorry Chinis but you offered yourself up for this example. =(

 

[Arctyrael]

Contrary to my obviously stated stance in the Sanoske flame, I do NOT think people should be banned for flaunting their disregard for the law. However, I think we as a community should ourselves ostracize them for their actions to the point where they don't really feel welcomed enough to stay here, rather than celebrate what they did as "cool" or "awesome". We shouldn't need the admins and mods doing this for us, to be honest.

I guess today I will be stuck up Rappa's ass because this is exactly how I feel. I read through some good candidates but his is the one I will quote.

I do not want to punish anyone with my authority if they so choose to tell us they are gil-buyers/sellers. It would be lose-lose for everyone and here is why:

1. It won't deter those that don't give a rats ass about FFXI anymore.
2. It will deter people that care about staying at QCDN, and frankly, I would rather know than maintain blissful ignorance.

I do not want to delete posts because as I said above, people should know. I'm not going to hide something some people want to see, want to disagree with, or more generally than this issue, defend.

I will do my best to balance and maintain the spirit of the board as a whole, and the categories on the site. It was a rather insulting topic to find on this board at all, and the particular content on RMT in GT.

In the past I have moved topics from the Good Times board to the Flameboard when clearly the topic had been misplaced. The topic of interest here, Sanoske's, was practically a flamebait and a good-bye thread in the same breath. I closed it, but did not delete it because... :drumroll:

I got numerous requests to move the thread to the flameboard, but diamond was the only one to follow up with my suggestion: "If you don't like it, quote it and flame it." I think RMT destroys a large part of the FFXI experience, so I do not support it in any form. Kudos to diamond, and others coming out against it, because it does seem to be one of those "normal" things these days.

I am open to criticism of these ideas if you can answer some questions.

• Would you want to know if someone was RMT?
• If deterrents are in place that would effectively prevent this knowledge from making it to the community, would you be ok remaining ignorant?
• Last one: Are the site's principles more important than overlooking RMT posts?

 

[Airou]

I guess today I will be stuck up Rappa's ass because this is exactly how I feel. I read through some good candidates but his is the one I will quote.

I do not want to punish anyone with my authority if they so choose to tell us they are gil-buyers/sellers. It would be lose-lose for everyone and here is why:

1. It won't deter those that don't give a rats ass about FFXI anymore.
2. It will deter people that care about staying at QCDN, and frankly, I would rather know than maintain blissful ignorance.

I do not want to delete posts because as I said above, people should know. I'm not going to hide something some people want to see, want to disagree with, or more generally than this issue, defend.

I will do my best to balance and maintain the spirit of the board as a whole, and the categories on the site. It was a rather insulting topic to find on this board at all, and the particular content on RMT in GT.

In the past I have moved topics from the Good Times board to the Flameboard when clearly the topic had been misplaced. The topic of interest here, Sanoske's, was practically a flamebait and a good-bye thread in the same breath. I closed it, but did not delete it because... :drumroll:

I got numerous requests to move the thread to the flameboard, but diamond was the only one to follow up with my suggestion: "If you don't like it, quote it and flame it." I think RMT destroys a large part of the FFXI experience, so I do not support it in any form. Kudos to diamond, and others coming out against it, because it does seem to be one of those "normal" things these days.

I am open to criticism of these ideas if you can answer some questions.

• Would you want to know if someone was RMT?
• If deterrents are in place that would effectively prevent this knowledge from making it to the community, would you be ok remaining ignorant?
• Last one: Are the site's principles more important than overlooking RMT posts?

I for one am fine with the decision you seem to have made, kudos to that and i hope we can all move forward now.

But to play devils advocate for a second

Once a member admitts or is caught cheating, with proof, what ignorance can come from banning them after? What more do we need from them on the boards?

Devils advocate again, dont prohibit them from becomming members because theres no way of knowing for sure, but once every does find out and its proven, then get rid of them after, then everyone would know theyre RMT. It is also possible RMT could use our AH section to broaden their sales without us even noticing.

Either way im just glad a decision was made and im cool with it. Thanks Arct.

 

[Arctyrael]

IOnce a member admitts or is caught cheating, with proof, what ignorance can come from banning them after? What more do we need from them on the boards?

Aye, I thought of that. However, back to bullet two at the top of my post. If they want to stay at QCDN, they're likely to not tell us if they know its going to get them permabanned.

Upon reading most of the thread in the FB thanks to some crap that should not have made it into the thread, Sanoske stated himself he would not have said anything had he thought it would be received as such. Whats the adage about "the court of public opinion"? lol

In allowing people to post this stuff, even if the OP doesn't care, at least it lets everyone else evaluate the impact as it pertains to them personally.

 

[Airou]

Aye, I thought of that. However, back to bullet two at the top of my post. If they want to stay at QCDN, they're likely to not tell us if they know its going to get them permabanned.

Upon reading most of the thread in the FB thanks to some crap that should not have made it into the thread, Sanoske stated himself he would not have said anything had he thought it would be received as such. Whats the adage about "the court of public opinion"? lol

In allowing people to post this stuff, even if the OP doesn't care, at least it lets everyone else evaluate the impact as it pertains to them personally.

You do have a point there, it would reduce the number of people admitting guilt. Though i think with how some people reacted to Sanoske, that damage is already done.

 

[Zyndara]

I am open to criticism of these ideas if you can answer some questions.

• Would you want to know if someone was RMT?
• If deterrents are in place that would effectively prevent this knowledge from making it to the community, would you be ok remaining ignorant?
• Last one: Are the site's principles more important than overlooking RMT posts?

In most cases, I've always preferred to know. In this case, I have to say I half think ignorance is bliss. I almost think I'd rather go with the delusion that someone I've known and or played with for years is a fair player like me rather than a cheater contributing to the problems that we have all faced over the years of playing due to RMT or hacking, botting losers who suck too hard to be legitimate.

As for the site's principles, why did we work so hard to get the IGE ads out of here? Why did we tell someone "hey, please don't post your ad for selling your character here?" I mean either stick to the principles along the track you started to lay or say fuck it. But don't half ass it in my opinion. I think if it has to stay, it should be restricted to the flameboard where trash like that belongs, and should be infractionable if it appears elsewhere.

When most of this community has been affected negatively by RMT and hacking/botting as far as their game experience, it seems to me that we shouldn't have to come here and see threads or posts justifing it or glorifying it or acting like it's not hurting anything (and for those of you who say what does it hurt - think about the level 75 who hasn't played a day of ff in his life, or one minute of the job he's on - who wastes your time, maybe your gil, probably your exp or w/e it is you're trying to accomplish or the prices that get driven up as a result of the gil influx into the economy).