Feedback I Cannot be the only one who feels this way

[Javir]

In most cases, I've always preferred to know. In this case, I have to say I half think ignorance is bliss. I almost think I'd rather go with the delusion that someone I've known and or played with for years is a fair player like me rather than a cheater contributing to the problems that we have all faced over the years of playing due to RMT or hacking, botting losers who suck too hard to be legitimate.

As for the site's principles, why did we work so hard to get the IGE ads out of here? Why did we tell someone "hey, please don't post your ad for selling your character here?" I mean either stick to the principles along the track you started to lay or say fuck it. But don't half ass it in my opinion. I think if it has to stay, it should be restricted to the flameboard where trash like that belongs, and should be infractionable if it appears elsewhere.

When most of this community has been affected negatively by RMT and hacking/botting as far as their game experience, it seems to me that we shouldn't have to come here and see threads or posts justifing it or glorifying it or acting like it's not hurting anything (and for those of you who say what does it hurt - think about the level 75 who hasn't played a day of ff in his life, or one minute of the job he's on - who wastes your time, maybe your gil, probably your exp or w/e it is you're trying to accomplish or the prices that get driven up as a result of the gil influx into the economy).

That right there is all I had to read. I think Arct made a great call. Think of it this way: would you rather find out that a politician that has been screwing you over or when the evidence presents itself, ask authorities to bury it because you liked him enough to vote for him?

Sano was the corrupted person that some people put their trust into. It sucks to find out things like that. Putting rules in place to dissuade people from posting is almost the same as saying that RMT is ok, so long as its a friend and as long as you don't know about it. Fact remains RMT is never ok.

 

[Zyndara]

That right there is all I had to read. I think Arct made a great call. Think of it this way: would you rather find out that a politician that has been screwing you over or when the evidence presents itself, ask authorities to bury it because you liked him enough to vote for him?

Sano was the corrupted person that some people put their trust into. It sucks to find out things like that. Putting rules in place to dissuade people from posting is almost the same as saying that RMT is ok, so long as its a friend and as long as you don't know about it. Fact remains RMT is never ok.

If you've read any of my posts in either of these threads, I'm sure you know I agree with you that RMT is not ok. I'm not saying I condone it. I'm saying it's a betrayal to the server and to anyone who's dealt with the troubles it has caused. And frankly, yes, I'd rather not see it or have to hear about it. For years, it's been in our faces every day we play to one degree or another. If it's going to be shoved in my face, then at least keep it out of a damn Good Times thread where I've got to see someone gloating about being RMT like a big fuck you to all of us.

 

[chinis]

Goodness, wait for the axe. If I'm correct that is also against the ToS.. so you should also be banned. It may not be as 'serious' in the eyes of the community, I KNOW shittons of ppl use windower. However breaking ToS is breaking ToS.

People will pick that apart too.

So what say you QCDN community? Should we ban Chinis for admitting to breaking the ToS.

Sorry Chinis but you offered yourself up for this example. =(

I did it on purpose, lol. I'm going to guess that almost everyone would say I shouldn't be banned (from the game or the boards). Windower isn't "as bad an offense" as RMT. I guess you could compare it to speeding. Will a cop pull you over for going 5 miles over the speed limit versus someone going 20 over? I'd guess not. A lot of people get away with going 5 over, knowing nothing will really happen to them.

 

[Morcheeba]

I did it on purpose, lol. I'm going to guess that almost everyone would say I shouldn't be banned (from the game or the boards). Windower isn't "as bad an offense" as RMT. I guess you could compare it to speeding. Will a cop pull you over for going 5 miles over the speed limit versus someone going 20 over? I'd guess not. A lot of people get away with going 5 over, knowing nothing will really happen to them.

I don't actually think you should be banned, just so you know.

Pointing out though that if it goes beyond the issues being RMT's and it's individuals that break the code of conduct at all, we can't pick shit apart til there's nothing left.

You're accurate in the speeding example you give, all that says though is how twisted systems in general seem to be.

 

[Lenneth]

I guess today I will be stuck up Rappa's ass because this is exactly how I feel. I read through some good candidates but his is the one I will quote.

I do not want to punish anyone with my authority if they so choose to tell us they are gil-buyers/sellers. It would be lose-lose for everyone and here is why:

1. It won't deter those that don't give a rats ass about FFXI anymore.
2. It will deter people that care about staying at QCDN, and frankly, I would rather know than maintain blissful ignorance.

I do not want to delete posts because as I said above, people should know. I'm not going to hide something some people want to see, want to disagree with, or more generally than this issue, defend.

I will do my best to balance and maintain the spirit of the board as a whole, and the categories on the site. It was a rather insulting topic to find on this board at all, and the particular content on RMT in GT.

In the past I have moved topics from the Good Times board to the Flameboard when clearly the topic had been misplaced. The topic of interest here, Sanoske's, was practically a flamebait and a good-bye thread in the same breath. I closed it, but did not delete it because... :drumroll:

I got numerous requests to move the thread to the flameboard, but diamond was the only one to follow up with my suggestion: "If you don't like it, quote it and flame it." I think RMT destroys a large part of the FFXI experience, so I do not support it in any form. Kudos to diamond, and others coming out against it, because it does seem to be one of those "normal" things these days.

I am open to criticism of these ideas if you can answer some questions.

• Would you want to know if someone was RMT?
• If deterrents are in place that would effectively prevent this knowledge from making it to the community, would you be ok remaining ignorant?
• Last one: Are the site's principles more important than overlooking RMT posts?

Well now that I'm back for dinner it seems I missed all the fun. As much as Id like to answer everyones post I think I will just stick to this one, since I don't feel that it properly meet my concerns.

Would I like to know if someone was RMT: Yes I would, what i would not however is like to see a thread of "I made this much money over 2 years doing RMT shits so awesome" because not only does it give potential new people a reason not to join, but its also a negative influence on the rest of the population, as noted by the various kudos and pats on the back by a good portion of the good times thread. I guess its the state of the games fault that nobody seems to care anymore (I hardly even play) but does that mean we should cater to the people who don't even care? seems kinda silly to me, seeing as how they don't care.

Your second point is where I think you kind of missed my point, I don't for a minute think we should stop people from finding out RMT, but rather the RMT who flaunt it in our faces at Rappa put it.

The third point... Well that really depends. I mean what are the principles? The rules we have in place are generally to stop things that are illegal or what people find distasteful. Personally, I find Flaunting RMT/hacking in my face distasteful, though not on the same scale as some would find racism or whatever.

So I guess the only way to answer the last question would be to see how the rest of QCDN feels as a whole in some sort of poll where everyone will read it.

 

[Lenneth]

And on a unrelated note which should probably go in its own seperate thread. To all you people who would rather say "You care too much, get a life" or generally post on my character then a reasonable argument. Would it kill you to post a actual debate? That shits just grief tactics and has no place in a discussion outside the flameboard. I don't see why I should have to deal with that crap when I am trying to make QCDN a better place. I pay my bills, I Work my shifts, I go out every weekend and come back in the wee hours of the morning, forgive me for not pretending I don't gave a damn, because the fact is I do. and if i want to spend my day off debating (which I've quit enjoyed) then I damn well will

 

[Arctyrael]

I failed to comment on them directly.
My problem is if people know I am going to adulter there 'confessions' whats the point in posting in the first place? So we never find out.

I think I'm actually encouraging people to post their history in RMT so that people CAN ostracize them, or show their ass if they want to ignore/defend the RMTer. The principles of the site are to promote an enjoyable environment in regards to gaming. RMT arguable compromises an enjoyable gaming environment.

What would you have me do with Sanoske's post? If I delete it *now* and punish future people won't confess. If I just delete it, the damage has been done for Sano, but will future people even both confessing since it gets deleted? I want to know who is RMT... If we delete on sight, it just hides the issue. I think its easier and better long term to just let people post their RMT ties and hope the community removes the romanticism... if thats possible... of RMT.

 

[Arctyrael]

And on a unrelated note which should probably go in its own seperate thread. To all you people who would rather say "You care too much, get a life" or generally post on my character then a reasonable argument. Would it kill you to post a actual debate? That shits just grief tactics and has no place in a discussion outside the flameboard. I don't see why I should have to deal with that crap when I am trying to make QCDN a better place. I pay my bills, I Work my shifts, I go out every weekend and come back in the wee hours of the morning, forgive me for not pretending I don't gave a damn, because the fact is I do. and if i want to spend my day off debating (which I've quit enjoyed) then I damn well will

In fact, let me recommend the flameboard if you feel you must make this comment.

 

[Lenneth]

I failed to comment on them directly.
My problem is if people know I am going to adulter there 'confessions' whats the point in posting in the first place? So we never find out.

I think I'm actually encouraging people to post their history in RMT so that people CAN ostracize them, or show their ass if they want to ignore/defend the RMTer. The principles of the site are to promote an enjoyable environment in regards to gaming. RMT arguable compromises an enjoyable gaming environment.

What would you have me do with Sanoske's post? If I delete it *now* and punish future people won't confess. If I just delete it, the damage has been done for Sano, but will future people even both confessing since it gets deleted? I want to know who is RMT... If we delete on sight, it just hides the issue. I think its easier and better long term to just let people post their RMT ties and hope the community removes the romanticism... if thats possible... of RMT.

The fact is that people wont ostracize them, Right now all we are doing is showing that RMT is ok as long as you have friends or a fan base, and another fact is that if alot of people decide that its ok the problem will be even worse then it is now. What happens when players who dont RMT or hack are a minority? that's when your game dies.

Something else you have to consider is ATM people will only really confess when it will no longer effect them and there is basicly no deterent, so no this doesn't "Stop RMT" but it doesn't help it either.

 

[Pompidou]

Unfortunately, the anti-RMT camp are the minority, it seems. I don't think the existence of Sanoske-like threads will really have much effect on the amount of RMT in the game. I mean, I knew there was money in RMT but I never sold gil. You knew there was money in RMT. I bet everyone who's against RMT knew that they could make money. I mean, threads talking about what characters are going for on Ebay and whatnot popped up fairly regularly. I assume the people vocal in opposing RMT in this latest scandal are in fact, not hypocrites, but considering the number of hypocrites already exposed in changing tune when RMT changed from China to QCDN member, I'm not 100% certain. We all knew that being bad can be profitable. We didn't, even still. I think people who are pro and anti RMT will pretty much remain where they are. People that would become RMT just because there's no social punishment would've become closet RMT even with social punishment. Chasym opened the door for RMT to come out of the closet, and Sanoske all but started an RMT rights movement by getting everyone on his side. Wouldn't surprise me to see a parade at some point. Opposing RMT is an uphill battle now.

 

[Daveman]

The fact is that people wont ostracize them, Right now all we are doing is showing that RMT is ok as long as you have friends or a fan base, and another fact is that if alot of people decide that its ok the problem will be even worse then it is now. What happens when players who dont RMT or hack are a minority? that's when your game dies.

Something else you have to consider is ATM people will only really confess when it will no longer effect them and there is basicly no deterent, so no this doesn't "Stop RMT" but it doesn't help it either.

People cheat, they will always cheat, it's human nature to get around the system, the only thing that stops them is punishment. Social status doesn't affect this, rather what does is punishment, and being banned from qcdn isn't a serious punishment and would have little to no effect on it (isn't this the only server with a forum like this? yet somehow there are servers much worse with rmt). When someone first buys/sells gil or first hacks I doubt they worry about their social status if they're caught, they're worried if a GM is gonna find out.

As long as SE keeps their current level of enforcement RMT/hacking will be no less and no more common than before regardless of what the community says. Unless something has changed in the past year, a LOT lot lot lot less people hack in this game now than they did around when chasym did his thing, so your theory on social acceptance is less than correct by that example. The only thing that changed is that SE got a lot more serious about catching POS and Fleetool users.

 

[Sneakypants]

To all you people who would rather say "You care too much, get a life" or generally post on my character then a reasonable argument. Would it kill you to post a actual debate? That shits just grief tactics and has no place in a discussion outside the flameboard.

I'll speak to this, and only for myself. I said plenty on the FB and constructed plenty of well put together posts, regardless of which side of the fence you're on. I really don't have more to say about it. This thread came up afterwards and seeks a "solution" to this "problem", and yet, my opinion hasn't changed in the slightest. The little bit I contributed (my valid opinion of all this) is really all I feel like adding, and is entirely appropriate given what I see here. You're entitled to your own opinions of course, but realize you're not the only one that has questions for the other side that have gone unanswered. This thing is gonna play how how it will, and I've already given my feelings on it.


Gogo "better place". It'll be so improved.

 

[Romper]

Haven't people been banned in game for hacking? Didn't Chasym cause an entire years worth of drama by admitting that he hacked, and an entire shell hacked? Shouldn't we ban all the people that talk about .dat swapping and windower then because that alters the game (mind you FFXI allows for no sort of alterations of their [SE's] files).

I would think that people hacking the game has more of an effect on you than someone selling gil to make some money to help pay for college because of tight financial situations.

A ban on Sanoske you're creating just another double standard because the people that were banned in game for hacking are still able to post here.

Kotsu was right stop crying over this. Sanoske is gone from the game. He sold gil for a relatively short period of time for the game's lifespan. This has no bearing on you or how you play your game. So some people bought gil, and just coincidentally it could have been Sanoske. I would think the amount of gil sold by Sanoske is minuscule in amount compared to the real RMT.

 

[Morwen]

Banning them... I'm not so sure about. Making them a black sheep of the community by basically hanging a big neon sign over their head that reads "Butthole"? Perfect.

I think everyone in entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong it is, and that opinion should be represented. However, as a whole, QCDN should not seem as if they are condoning such behavior. I'm not going to try to compartmentalize the no-no's that people do, I'm just going to stick with shit like hacking, gil buying and gil selling. If we try to throw in shit like distance mods, windower, etc.; this discussion will go on forever and we will get absolutely nowhere.

I am not saying that we should go on some Crusade against "suspected" people, but those that are here and admit what they've done openly and freely, should be visibly identified. If necessary, in FAQ we can explain the status they've been given (ie, members with this banner/name color are given this status because they are admitted <insert bad stuff> and we are distinguishing them because QCDN does not condone the actions of this user).

Might just be me. /shrug

 

[Morcheeba]

Banning them... I'm not so sure about. Making them a black sheep of the community by basically hanging a big neon sign over their head that reads "Butthole"? Perfect.

I think everyone in entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong it is, and that opinion should be represented. However, as a whole, QCDN should not seem as if they are condoning such behavior. I'm not going to try to compartmentalize the no-no's that people do, I'm just going to stick with shit like hacking, gil buying and gil selling. If we try to throw in shit like distance mods, windower, etc.; this discussion will go on forever and we will get absolutely nowhere.

I am not saying that we should go on some Crusade against "suspected" people, but those that are here and admit what they've done openly and freely, should be visibly identified. If necessary, in FAQ we can explain the status they've been given (ie, members with this banner/name color are given this status because they are admitted <insert bad stuff> and we are distinguishing them because QCDN does not condone the actions of this user).

Might just be me. /shrug

Wonderful idea imo.

They've admitted to their wrong doing's, so they basically ostracize themselves.

RED FLAG for all

Good idea Morwen

 

[Sanoske]

I juuuust noticed this. Honestly, I would totally understand if you wanted to restrict my access to non-FFXI parts of the site. It is true that I am not part of the game anymore, and I hardly think my opinion would be much regarded by those who post the most frequently.

My only concern would be people bashing me and I would not be able to see it. Since, I'm sure that jokes/insults will be made about my actions for weeks/months to come.

Also, people would seek to ostracize me from the entire site, including RL and Off-Topic sections? L.o.l. How bitter and petty are some of you?

 

[Morwen]

I'm not bitter and petty at all, I just dont think that your actions should go unnoticed or passed off as 'Oh, its ok' by the site. I'm not exactly sure you should be restricted from FFXI areas either, considering you have extensive knowledge in crafting (thats how this whole convesation got started in the first place) and if you wanted to share it, I think you should be able to.

 

[Morcheeba]

Also, people would seek to ostracize me from the entire site, including RL and Off-Topic sections? L.o.l. How bitter and petty are some of you?

This isn't just about you though. Safe to say your recent GT thread/exciting Flame is was brought this thread to light, we are discussing EVERYONE who decides to wave these kinds of actions in the face of the community.

I don't think it's about pettiness at all. Some people may be petty, but that doesn't make us all petty. It's fair to say concerned.

There have been some very interesting points made in this thread. Like the concern that newcomers may view QCDN as condoning such behavior ingame to the point where we celebrate such actions in GT threads.

 

[Sanoske]

There have been some very interesting points made in this thread. Like the concern that newcomers may view QCDN as condoning such behavior ingame to the point where we celebrate such actions in GT threads.

If that's the case, deleting the GT thread would be the first step. Then newcomers would only be able to read the flame, in which I am clearly marked as the bad guy. So QCDN retains a clear face.

As far as the ostracizing, there are definitely a good number of people who would take up pitchforks and run me out if it were possible. Not saying everyone, especially since discussion in this thread has been much more civilized and constructive (for the most part) than anything else said on the topic.

 

[Morcheeba]

As far as the ostracizing, there are definitely a good number of people who would take up pitchforks and run me out if it were possible. Not saying everyone, especially since discussion in this thread has been much more civilized and constructive (for the most part) than anything else said on the topic.

Sure may be, but would you turn-tail and run?

EDIT: Marking you and everyone else as bold to state such facts just assists in ostracizing you, as ultimately you and everyone else have done it to yourselves.

Extreme example here but, child-molesters are marked as such and the information is made public to communities and surrounding areas where that person is residing. That's to give the community a heads up, give possible home buyers the information to make an education decision on buying in that community and residents the knowledge so they can avoid you if they want.

That's all.