If you take your job to heart, you annoy me...

I wouldn't really say the fact that their enfeebles are static duration causes a drop in their enfeebling power. I'd say it, along with the fact that it requires an item, is simply another reason why it doesn't cost MP. Top Job doesn't necessarily equal #1. Besides, you're also comparing a fully Merited Slow II to Hojo: Ni, something that requires a lot of effort to obtain vs. something that doesn't. While Slow II does cap higher, Hojo is still very formidable.

It's not the absolute best job for damage, ofcourse. But it's a cut above a vast majority of them, considering the fact that they can tank along side their impressive damage, is where the imbalance lies.

To compare it to something else.. Half-Life 1, I'm assuming you've played it. A Monk would be like the Gauss/Tau Cannon(rapid fire laser/charge up obliterating beam,) very powerful weapon. Ninja would be more like using the SMG while on God Mode. Sure, while it's not as powerful as the Tau, it's a cut above the pistol, the shotgun and .357 revolve(over time,) certainly the crowbar, and other weapons. But while you're not doing as much as the Tau, you're ripping through enemies specifically because you're not taking any damage. While not an entirely accurate comparison, it certainly explains my point.

If a Paladin were able to out damage a Ninja, would you say they're imbalanced? If a Ninja is considered fine as is, a balanced Paladin should rightfully be able to outdamage them. Considering they can't completely avoid damage, and MP can't be stretched as much as Shihei, what reason is there for their to damage lag behind Ninjas so much?

Balance isn't about how you do things. It's about what should be required to do them. A tank shouldn't be pumping out comparable damage numbers to jobs that aren't tanks, without giving up/weakening the ability to tank. Something Ninja manages to do.
 
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A good PLD can deal awesome damage. I've experienced it with several PLD's. They can certainly keep up with other jobs, while avoiding to take any damage at all by subbing NIN.

And yes, it do require an item to cast it. But they are limited by their items. You can't sey they are #1 enfeeblers just because it doesn't require any MP. A RDM have close to unlimited MP, so they're still #1. MP isn't an issue if you know how to use it effectively.

The thing is, PLD is a pure tank. Their only job is to tank, not to deal damage. a NIN's job is to deal damage, and take none. So yes, they are balanced. They are two complete opposites.
 
Uzor said:
Their only job is to tank, not to deal damage. a NIN's job is to deal damage, and take none. So yes, they are balanced.
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Arguement over. You've obviously no clue what balance actually is. It's not that they can do both. It's that they do both extremely well, that theres virtually no downside to either. #1 tank while being #2 Enfeebler and #4 Damage is not balance. It never will be. A Paladin can be decent damage, but they will rarely touch what a Ninja can regularly.

It's almost as if you're completely ignoring logic and my comparison, just to say that Ninja is fine and dandy, despite the games developers agreeing that the job is too strong.

If the job were truly balanced, the subjob wouldn't be so blatantly unbalanced that it warrants being the only sub used at 75. Neither Main nor Support job Ninja are correctly tuned, and you're on some serious drugs if you believe they are.
 
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Skaw said:
Arguement over. You've obviously no clue what balance actually is. It's not that they can do both. It's that they do both extremely well, that theres virtually no downside to either. #1 tank while being #4 Damage is not balance. It never will be. A Paladin can be decent damage, but they will rarely touch what a Ninja can regularly.
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You obviously have no view on what balance is. See how I can turn that around? You can't throw soemthing out without arguing for it.

Yes, they can do both extremely well, but only if they have the right gear. If you focus entirely on tankin in a exp party, they won't deal as much damage. If they focus completely on DD in a exp party, they can't tank as well. They can still do it good. A good NIN can't tank better then a good PLD.

Remember that this is still exp parties we're talking about, not merit parties and endgame.

NIN have a choice in exp parties. They can either focus entirely on DD, or entirely on tanking. They can also focus to be somewhere in-between.

PLD also have a choice. They can be either a DD, or a tank in exp parties. They can't be in-between. And I can assure you, that a PLD in good DD gear can be an excellent DD even in exp parties. However, most will just take the traditional role of tank, rather then DD.

Neither are unbalanced, because both do their jobs. You will rarely take a NIN for DD in exp parties, and yes, they will DD better then a PLD. But that's because the PLD focus on tanking. You can't say a NIN is unbalanced just because a NIN can tank good and DD good in end-game. a BLM is a very good DD against most HNM's, but that doesn't make them unbalanced. a RDM can solo Genbu, but that doesn't make them unbalanced.

And yes, in merit parties a NIN can deal awesome damage. a PLD in good DD gear can do 1200 vorpal blades and not take any damage too, while healing themselves and flashing the enemy and not ever lose hate.
 
Yeah, I'm done posting towards you. You keep confusing Balance with Role, making it pointless to argue.
 
No, I don't keep confusing balance and role. Balance isn't role, but role isn't balance either. You can't say that NIN is unbalanced because it can do damage and tank, since that is their role. a PLD can deal damage and tank good too, but that isn't their role. So PLD is unbalanced?

Yes, a NIN can tank and deal damage, but in normal exp parties (exp party != merit party), they can't do both unless they are very good and rich and have set ups for both. But that's not because the job itself is unbalanced, that because he's a good player. You keep confusing a good player with balance. Its not one and the same.

Besides, I really don't see why you take up an extreme job and pretend like that's the whole game. There's still 17 other jobs to pick from, and you pretend like NIN is the entire game. So because you consider 1 job unbalanced, the whole game is unbalanced? k!

And btw, in case you missunderstood me. The "Retarded noob" comment wasn't directed towards you.
 
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a word that has eeked through the halls of FFXI asshatidry... loldrg... It makes US stand up to that stupid ass word that everyone uses to get rid of any chance of inviting a drg... Hence why most drgs stick solo/duo with other drgs. I personally tried a different sub that most people shun... I went as a 64drg/32drk... i shit you not. Souleater Last resort Penta thrust for 855 dmg... outdamaging the war and the sam in the exp pt i was in. IT birds in bibiki bay. If you have the right mobs, DRG > some jobs people take to heart. I personally take drg to heart and am glad i do, because it is a wonderful job that MOST people dissagree with. thank god for these new areas, it makes soloing much easier. Chain 5 230 exp can I have it?
 
I'm a DRG. No one else is allowed.

And I think I used the term loldrg more than anyone, and I am one lol
 
heh yea, most drgs do, but i guess its commonly accepted as the "N-word" of the FFXI world. lol
 
sorry for late reply but.. when i played whm i thought the same as u tim, because I became good at the job but still didnt feel any attachement to it.
Then i tried nin and "fell in love" with it, now im leaning more toward the "defend your beloved job" area, just because for whatever reason i think certain jobs just click for certain people, and i also think there is a type of person, like you, who considers all the jobs to be an equal option to be played. These are the type who end up with Maat's hat. =)
We are all on our own path, so dont worry if someone wants to pretend they are the only pld or nin or whatever on ffxi, it just means they found that job that clicked, truely want to be good at it, feel attached to it, and would not like to hear it insulted. If you spend hours trying to be a good at anything- you will probably not like someone telling you that is was all useless. anyway just my 2 cents
 
Skaw said:
Yeah, I'm done posting towards you. You keep confusing Balance with Role, making it pointless to argue.
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you are confusing there ability to do there role to balance. A nin gain there hate by casting scrolls(magic). A pld get there hate by there ability and casting flash/cures. Nin is a offensive tank and pld is a def tank. A nin that get silenced is a very dead nin because there def is horrible. A mob that deals multi hits ie: thf and war or mnk while shear shadows to pieces, The pld on the other hand will sit the and laugh as they take the 12-40 dmg per hit. It not the jobs that are in-balanced it is the mob base is to weak. At 75 you are killing T-VT there only few camps where you still be facing IT mobs. When you fighting T-VT mobs you don't need a tank you just need 4 people that and knock the piss out of a mob and 2 support char to enhance the down time.
 
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And here is where i stand my ground about loving a job: You fight T-VT at 75? If thats so then that means DRG can solo merit very easily. props to jobs that can solo and not have to wait for others to accept them (Bst and drg).
 
hellstorm said:
you are confusing there ability to do there role to balance.
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No, you retard, that is balance. If a job does something too well, theres obviously something wrong. If I were able to go on monk, and kill anything in one volley of attacks, that's called being broken. I'm still performing within the jobs role. It's not wether a job can do something, like I said. It's how well it can vs. how much it can do. Ninja can do too much-too good at the same time. Any decently equipped Ninja can do great damage while tanking. It doesn't take as much effort as Uzor claims it does. Theres absolutely no need for the job to focus on one aspect while limiting the other. The job just encompasses too many tasks naturally, without much of a penalty to the performance of those tasks.
 
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Skaw said:
No, you retard, that is balance. If a job does something too well, theres obviously something wrong. If I were able to go on monk, and kill anything in one volley of attacks, that's called being broken. I'm still performing within the jobs role. It's not wether a job can do something, like I said. It's how well it can vs. how much it can do. Ninja can do too much-too good at the same time. Any decently equipped Ninja can do great damage while tanking. It doesn't take as much effort as Uzor claims it does. Theres absolutely no need for the job to focus on one aspect while limiting the other. The job just encompasses too many tasks naturally, without much of a penalty to the performance of those tasks.
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and any good pld can take next to near no dmg without lossing any hate and using a large amount of mp. Or what about thf has triple attack and eva skill like none other. With blood bolts they can solo almost anything. Does that make them broken? Ninja need it enfeb to keep hate and allow them time to put there next line of shasdows up. Ninja need shadow because it sucks at def. That not unbalance that very balance.
 
hellstorm said:
Ninja need shadow because it sucks at def. That not unbalance that very balance.
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Wrong. They don't need shadows because their defense sucks, they choose to completely neglect defense because they have shadows.

Because they're allowed to absolutely ignore what was originally the lifeblood of a tank job, they're allowed to take the role and additionally stack up on DD gear or hastestuff to assist them in keeping up their magical, 100%-blink shadows to boot. THATS why it's imbalanced.

In my opinion, Utsusemi's entirely broken as it is. Logically, if* a Ninja has four shadows, then there's the ninja and four shadows which would mean there's a 20% chance he gets hit. 25% chance with three shadows, 33% chance with two, 50% with one. But that's not the case.

*fixed.
 
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hellstorm said:
and any good pld can take next to near no dmg without lossing any hate and using a large amount of mp. Or what about thf has triple attack and eva skill like none other. With blood bolts they can solo almost anything. Does that make them broken? Ninja need it enfeb to keep hate and allow them time to put there next line of shasdows up. Ninja need shadow because it sucks at def. That not unbalance that very balance.
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Ontop of what Ish said, sure, Paladin can take very little damage, but their damage suffers entirely because of it. Ninja can take very little damage without sacrifice. Ninja can pump out numbers without sacrifice. Ninja can enfeeble efficiently(don't feed me duration bullshit,) without sacrifice.

For the 8th time this thread. Ninja is unbalanced because it can do too much too well. You might as well just give it buff and curative Ninjutsu at this point to complete the circle. You can say RDM can do all that, but aside from Enfeebling and Enhancing, they aren't great at the other things.

Sure, Thief can solo. But it takes forever. They sacrifice EXP rate to solo, what every job does to solo. BST and DRG included.

Jesus Christ, It's like talking to a 3 year old about the difference between a cripple and a football players physical differences.
 
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I think along the same lines as Ishaela. Utsusemi is the problem here. It's simply too good. Damage is supposed to be counterbalanced by hate gain and the resulting damage taken. If a Drk/War goes crazy with JAs and deals tons of damage, s/he dies because of it. If a Blm overnukes, the blm dies. If a ninja deals too much damage, s/he suffers no consequences at all because of the broken utsusemi. The game is full of balances. You gear for defense like a pld and you take little damage, but deal little damage. You gear for offense like a standard melee, and you take lots of damage but deal lots of damage. Utsusemi makes jobs deal lots of damage and take no damage. Utsusemi needs to be nerfed, and not just a slap on the wrist nerf that noone even cares about. It needs a nerf on par with the first ranger nerf. Then the entire population wouldn't be filled with people having their cake and eating it too, whilst mages and paladins are forced to simply have their cake, and can't eat it. These days, if you can't eat your cake too, noone wants you for anything, it seems.
 
Topic is here.







































You are here.


Thank you.
 
Skaw said:
Ontop of what Ish said, sure, Paladin can take very little damage, but their damage suffers entirely because of it. Ninja can take very little damage without sacrifice. Ninja can pump out numbers without sacrifice. Ninja can enfeeble efficiently(don't feed me duration bullshit,) without sacrifice.

For the 8th time this thread. Ninja is unbalanced because it can do too much too well. You might as well just give it buff and curative Ninjutsu at this point to complete the circle. You can say RDM can do all that, but aside from Enfeebling and Enhancing, they aren't great at the other things.

Sure, Thief can solo. But it takes forever. They sacrifice EXP rate to solo, what every job does to solo. BST and DRG included.

Jesus Christ, It's like talking to a 3 year old about the difference between a cripple and a football players physical differences.
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Ninja shadows is there life line. Without them they whould die in 3-5 hits just like any other dd. They stack up on haste and eva gear to prolong there shadows. Pld on the other hand stacks on defense gear. Again though any job at 75 can tank with shadows. Shadow is one the reason rdm can solo so well because we can cast faster hen a ninja. There is no unbalance from ninja.

If anything need to be adjusted it whould be to bump up pld parry and lower ninja parry and maybe evasion

On side note you know ninja the one of the only job dont have no A+ skills and Has no abilities(till expansion)
 
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