Intelligent Design?

[Klepto_Pyro]

so? so has astrology, thats much further back, and rudamentary science has survived and changed into modern science, oh and sacrifices thats survived a long time. oh yeah and lets not forget murder, rebellion, war, famine, civil unrest, and rich being rich while the poor are poor. does that mean all of these things are good and we should follow them... not at all. just because something lasts a long time means nothing

 

[Kat]

oh and one more thing kat, are you telling me that no one rebelled during the 60's and 70's? if you are your more deluded than i thought... they may not have done it the same way we do today, but they did. my parents did, and they were strict religeous, and my grandparents notice it happening all the time. its not that it happens more, its just its in a different way. and i'm sure the things you did that may have driven your parents crazy seemed simple things to you but not to them.
the same thing with them to their parents, they probably did things their parents didnt agree with, but does this prove anything no. People rebel against their parents everyday, even long ago, Not just nowadays

Well, the 60's and 70's are after WWI aren't they?

 

[Klepto_Pyro]

"Personally, I wasn't born until 1961 myself so I cannot say about others, but I do know growin' up we didn't disrespect our parents or teachers yada yada. It's a lot different these days to say the least."
You said no one disrespected your parents or teachers, and we have tapes of that happening, we have records of protests, and rebellions against the ways of old and parents. i'm just offering proof you dont know what your talking about if you say no one disrespected their parents as your growing up, you may not remember doing it too much, but it happened.

 

[Kat]

And again, you don't wanna believe in God more power to ya. That's your "FREE WILL". My Free Will is I will die believing in God, Jesus, the Bible and the Holy Spirit. And that is something no one can take away from me. That is my faith. Call it what you want, but I know in my heart I am right, secure and most of all at peace with the way I believe.

 

[Klepto_Pyro]

and they rebelled against their parents before WWI. just not in the same way we do now, just like the next generation wont all rebel in the same way we do

 

[Kat]

"Personally, I wasn't born until 1961 myself so I cannot say about others, but I do know growin' up we didn't disrespect our parents or teachers yada yada. It's a lot different these days to say the least."
You said no one disrespected your parents or teachers, and we have tapes of that happening, we have records of protests, and rebellions against the ways of old and parents. i'm just offering proof you dont know what your talking about if you say no one disrespected their parents as your growing up, you may not remember doing it too much, but it happened.

Read it again. I said Personally, meaning myself and my siblings tyvm.

 

[Klepto_Pyro]

i dont challenge your believe in god, and i never said i dont believe in god, i just dont believe in everything the bible teaches. and i think you believing in god is a great thing, but you seem to be forcing it on other people by posting that they are wrong because a few things your bible have been proven true, but that doesnt mean everyone should believe in it, and an unquestioned religeous power leads to unfair and inhumane tactics.

 

[Kat]

i dont challenge your believe in god, and i never said i dont believe in god, i just dont believe in everything the bible teaches. and i think you believing in god is a great thing, but you seem to be forcing it on other people by posting that they are wrong because a few things your bible have been proven true, but that doesnt mean everyone should believe in it, and an unquestioned religeous power leads to unfair and inhumane tactics.

And again, WHERE have I written in any of my posts that I personally am trying to force anyone, in believing the way I do? I am simply stating my opinions and how I, personally believe.

I have said numerous times, over and over and over again: Believe what you want.

 

[Klepto_Pyro]

yes you said personally, but you used it as proof that people didnt rebel against there parents back then

and i'd love to continue this argument now but i need to go make dinner and go out for a while, i can pick this up again tommorow and respond to anything if you want to keep arguing

 

[Klepto_Pyro]

you never wrote it, but you kept saying proof from the bible, that 'prooved' your way was better than others
such as saying amageddon was coming because the bible was right that disasters will happen sometime in the future... oops a disaster is occuring somewhere right now as i'm typing this

 

[Neyla]

We can simply agree to disagree. At least the more reasonable among us can. I think it's a beautiful thing you're totally at peace with your beliefs. So am I. At the end of the day people should simply leave it at that.

 

[Kat]

As I've said, I'm done. I've countered you on every "argument" (as you call it) you've tried to come back at me with. I've said what I have to say.

Knock yourself out. You believe you choose as shall I.

 

[Kat]

you never wrote it, but you kept saying proof from the bible, that 'prooved' your way was better than others
such as saying amageddon was coming because the bible was right that disasters will happen sometime in the future... oops a disaster is occuring somewhere right now as i'm typing this

Excuse me? Just because you took it defensively doesn't mean that's the way it was written. I didn't realize you could read my words and know what I was thinking. Again, it's my opinion. I am entitled to have one don't ya think?

 

[Kat]

And again, there is still no scientific proof we came from nothing either. No matter how hard you try to twist it, Science cannot say how we were actually formed either. There is time missing. It doesn't matter how much.

According to the Bible God created man on the 6th day if I remember Genesis correctly. He started with the atmosphere and mountains and streams yada yada. Now think about it guys. These people were writing about God how many thousands of years ago? And there are still scrolls that can be read to show this? Think of what they wrote with, not including what the paper/parchment was like.

Furthermore, think about how many people SAW the Red Sea split in half, the locusts, yada yada. Think of the people who saw Jesus. Who saw the phenomenom of not only his death, but his resurrection. Witnesses to all of it, who wrote it down. You just cannot deny that.

You wanna believe in Science, more power to ya. But I'm tellin' ya, we are in Armageddon right now. Read Matthew Chapter 24 (called my Mom, cuz I knew she'd know where to look). Anywayyyy, it specifically says once the 144,000 are in Heaven Armageddon will start. That was back when World War I started. It also goes on to say there will be world wars, earthquakes, hurricanes, children disrespecting their parents, children turning away from the God Almighty, famine, etc.

If y'all don't think that is happening right now, you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

you never wrote it, but you kept saying proof from the bible, that 'prooved' your way was better than others
such as saying amageddon was coming because the bible was right that disasters will happen sometime in the future... oops a disaster is occuring somewhere right now as i'm typing this

Please show me where in that post I'm trying to "prove" my way of believing is better? Gimme a break dude. Grow up.

Furthermore, where I said if you don't believe it's goin' on right now ... and you came back with, it's always been that way. Therefore, I still wasn't saying my way was better, but that yes, it is happening in this day and age and imo I feel we are in Armageddon. That is my opinion. That is all.

 

[Anttaru]

Reishu i think you are pretty bright and i only seek a good debate, so please don't take this as a flame of any kind. I just want to try to point out a few things.

Truth in its purest form... Isn't that what perfection is? God is described as being perfect... at least perfect compared to us.

Truth in it's purest form is to see for yourself behold.

In order to be a perfect Human being, you must be imperfect says i. We compared to God ? We can't even begin scratch it.

Ancient stories tell of two kinds of gods. One is the kind of god who is always improving, always progressing to be more perfect. The other is the kind of god who believes he's so perfect that there's nothing left to improve.

I never seen where it says God is perfect, God himself has laid his wrath upon us, and also made promise not to do it again. In the old testament God was less forgiving.

The latter became who we are told is Satan. The former is the God the old religions tell us to worship.

The Fallen Angel who turned against God, his name is Urael, who became Satan. Some say God and the Devil are one, but who knows for sure.

If God still improves, he has to have a basis for that improvement for the things which he does not yet know. (Faith?)

That's if. And no one knows what God does not know. All in good question.

Another thing: you assume that all faith has to be blind faith to be faith.

Yes.

How does a young child walk? They have faith. They see others do it, and they believe that they can do the same. Occasionally they fall over trying to put weight on a leg, but in time they learn how. Isn't that a validated faith? Yes, it's not blind faith, but it's not absolute truth either (how is the kid supposed to know all about neurons and muscles at that age?).

Your earlier messege you seemd to be amazed that people even believe in Faith. Faith is blind. A baby learning to walk is mearly a fun activity. Albert Einstein was a man of faith, He was labeled as a dunce at one point of his life and even failed math. Him showing up at a University window pressing a peice of paper against it and tapping on the glass, shows he had faith in himself after the amount of abuse he endured.

You say that Truth eats faith to a point where faith falls along side the word meaning "if". You are correct in a way, that's what happens to false faith. Not all faith is false though.

Faith does not define true or false. Even if one has faith in something that is false it does not make the persons Faith any lesser. Truth ends all faith. If it's proven real, Faith is gone, if it is proven not real Faith is gone.

Truth devalues false faith. Truth gives detail and definition to a validated faith.

Your saying someone who has faith in something that is not real, has no faith at all. When really they do.

I merely put religion into the realm of validated faith.

There is no invalid faith.

You and your family do not practice Religion. And i'm not saying Religious people are any better at speaking out for it. But what is this "Validated faith" you speak of ? That there is no God ?

If anyone wishes to clarify what i've posted go ahead.

I'm sick of defending my point of view; I bring a good point of view to the table, and people ignore what i say to talk about the things nobody cares about.

You said "If anyone" does that mean your faith is fallen along side the meaning of if ?

Religion is a big thing, alot of people do care

Don't mistake people not adopting your points as being ignorant or anything, i'm sure they listen to everything you said if they even reply

 

[Reishu]

Truth in it's purest form is to see for yourself behold.

I agree very much with this. What I've experienced has only validated my perception that God exists and is very interested in our development both individually and as a species.

In order to be a perfect Human being, you must be imperfect says i. We compared to God ? We can't even begin scratch it.

You're assuming that god is so incapable of being understood that we shouldn't bother. I'm pointing out that people are misunderstanding god, and to understand him, we should bother.

I never seen where it says God is perfect, God himself has laid his wrath upon us, and also made promise not to do it again. In the old testament God was less forgiving.

This says two things, that God is capable of learning and growing, and that god has changed for some reason. Both point away from the conventional idea that God is unchangable and absolute.

The Fallen Angel who turned against God, his name is Urael, who became Satan. Some say God and the Devil are one, but who knows for sure.

I was referring to teachings from the Talmud and also to the ancient Sumerian texts. I'm going to google to see which civilization you're pulling your information from.

However, i'd like to point out the strange fact that my summary is extremely common throughout many civilizations; regardless of geographic location.

That's if. And no one knows what God does not know. All in good question.

The process is still the same, faith (the kind of faith i'm familiar with) gives the same mental path regardless of the person, only the knowledge involved changes the landscape

Yes. nobody knows what God doesn't know. However, if we knew what god does know, wouldn't we be learning the same things as him? One excellent example of someone who learned the same things God knows is Moses; if you look at the hebrew text, it clearly states that Moses was taken away by god. Also, nowhere is there a traditional burial ground for him (and we all know how important the Jews value tradition.) He's not the only account either.

Your earlier messege you seemd to be amazed that people even believe in Faith. Faith is blind. A baby learning to walk is mearly a fun activity. Albert Einstein was a man of faith, He was labeled as a dunce at one point of his life and even failed math. Him showing up at a University window pressing a peice of paper against it and tapping on the glass, shows he had faith in himself after the amount of abuse he endured.

Faith is the belief in something that is not known. This can be play, this can be perseverance. However, faith which is placed in anything; regardless of what it is, is blind faith if it wanders. Only by testing our own faith (with truth) can we sharpen our minds. I cannot believe that God's mind is dull with nonsense, why should mine?

Faith does not define true or false. Even if one has faith in something that is false it does not make the persons Faith any lesser. Truth ends all faith. If it's proven real, Faith is gone, if it is proven not real Faith is gone.

Again, faith is belief, not knowledge. Once it's validated with all facts pertinent to the issue involved, it's not faith any more. It's knowledge.

I pursue knowledge with a passion. That's just me, but it has influenced how I percieve what faith is.

Your saying someone who has faith in something that is not real, has no faith at all. When really they do.

I did not say that. I did say that blind faith is useless and goes nowhere.

There is no invalid faith.

Agreed. Everyone has their own path they can (and do) follow to achieve what they want.

You and your family do not practice Religion. And i'm not saying Religious people are any better at speaking out for it. But what is this "Validated faith" you speak of ? That there is no God ?

You're right, i don't follow a religion that is little more than a social structure for the idle minded. I follow a religion of fact and knowledge, of putting together patterns people do not think to put together. I don't care if you label me atheist or not, i'm just as much athiest as I am a devout believer.

You said "If anyone" does that mean your faith is fallen along side the meaning of if ?

Religion is a big thing, alot of people do care

Don't mistake people not adopting your points as being ignorant or anything, i'm sure they listen to everything you said if they even reply

No, i'm just tired of arguing back and forth for no reason at all, which i'll paraphrase as a "my stupidity is greater than yours" attitude. Too many people here have posted in that manner, and I don't care for it.

 

[Reishu]

Thanks for the conversation Anttaru

 

[Sculli]

And on the same note Sculli, why is so hard for you and others to fathom that there is a God/Superior Being who created us? There is tons of documentation showing the bible to be a true history book also.

I don't doubt the Bible. I doubt it's the word of God, I doubt it was written by God through people, rather it was written by people to serve thier needs.

I simply can not believe in a superior being because the intelligence required to come up with something like Earth would have prevented all the shit from happening.

Religion is one of the base beliefs of humanity. Virtually every group, race, tribe has belief in being created by a supreme being or beings. Isn't it at least possible that this is some sort of racial memory or instinct that stems from a time when mankind was much smaller and had contact with such a being?

Religion, no matter what kind, was created by people who at the time had no way to comprehend their environment. Their only explanation for what was happening around them is to attribute it to higher powers. Prometheus they say brought the fire down to man. Is that what happened, or was it a lightning strike, a lightning strike like the ones that set Alaska on fire every summer?

If y'all don't think that is happening right now, you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

If you don't think there were world wars, earthquakes, hurricanes, children disrespecting their parents, children turning away from the God Almighty, famine, etc. before WWI, then you will need to pick up a History book.

Children disrespecting their parents is somewhat newer, as children do not depend on their parents as much as they did in the past they become less respectful, and often even resentful as they realize their parents lived a meaningless life of everyday America instead of reaching out and try to be better.

War is as old as human history, natural disasters are as old as the Earth itself. Dunno what to say, but the book is clearly wrong on that one.

My Free Will is I will die believing in God, Jesus, the Bible and the Holy Spirit. And that is something no one can take away from me. That is my faith. Call it what you want, but I know in my heart I am right, secure and most of all at peace with the way I believe.

Not to wake sleeping dogs, but if you are right about all of your beliefs, then ..., you will not make it into Heaven. This isn't me judging, it's me stating facts based on your belief. I am curious how you view this issue.

 

[micah2424]

Hehe this bullshit is still going on eh?

Simply put christians believe in god and i can say whatever i want to them and i cant prove to them otherwise.

No fucking proof in the world can change a belief period.

God and religon should not even be posted on a game forum site

Religon is nothng but a simple excuse for people to debate and bash each other.

Who gives a shit if sculli believes in god or not nobody and nothing on this planet is goiing to change his belief's or view's.

 

[Anttaru]

Excellent Reishu.

I personally do not go to Church cause i think i seen enough of it. It's important for Church to continue for the sake of the religions survival, which renforces the stability of the Bible.

I often marvel at what God might be like, but i do not place limitations on God or us. It's just that the highest is the highest and that would never change.

Moses knew what he knew cause of God. It says, "When Moses returned down from the mountain, his hair was White" God appeared to Moses as a burning bush, as the Bible states, anyone who see's the face of God will die, and still Moses was so rattled out his hair turned white. Slavery by all means is no modavation for us to develop properly, God sent Moses on his mission. Surly God wants to see us develops and become something no doubt.

I am aware that God made Moses Vanish, and deep research indicates the Seven Books of Moses was removed from the Bible. It's roumored these missing parts of the Bible had excercises and what is described as mythical powers to be put into practice. We have proven as a whole not to be tame enough to obey the 10 commandments even when high on alert of Gods presence, God will not have us be anything like what he made Moses into. Who knows what kind of power this knowlege would have granted us, maybe even throw in a how you say telekinesis ( I wish ). Yes sir Moses was different, and i'd like to think of him as a prototype of what we could have been as a species. Many would say no, but we crave power, and the currupt side is with power, temptation is ever increasingly stronger.

As we are many, the reason why it's not good to try to unlock the secrets of how God rolls, is because it can turn out to be misleading and branch off into modern assumptions from many areas leading to the loss of our original source of information.

You say "Faith is the belief in something that is not known"
I say "Faith is to blindly go foward"
So i think we are pretty much on the same page.

You also stated: "Only by testing our own faith (with truth) can we sharpen our minds. I cannot believe that God's mind is dull with nonsense, why should mine?"

I don't see why God would find that negative. God does want us to have Faith in him. To be loved by many is very pleasing for God as it is for us, to be loved by God is a return that could stagger you imagination i think. Do i think God loves me ? No, i think he treats me like the rest of us and he likes us enough for us to have a chance at becoming something he would love. I would not dare explain how i try.

You said:"Again, faith is belief not knowlege"
I say:"Agreed"
You:"Once it's validated with all facts pertinent to the issue involved..
Me:"Ok checkpoint/Truth/confirmation/fullfillment/plain reached
You:"it's not faith any more. It's knowledge."
I say:This Knowledge is of "the Truth", At this point "the Faith" is a step backwards.

Boath Science and Religion can agree on that, and positively it's best when repeated.