Kind of a funny observation on my fellow BLMs

[Firestreak]

Well I've talked to BLM before and the conversation goes like this...

Them> I just got my AF2 legs!!
Me> Congrats!
Them> Finally can sell my mahatma pants.
Me> Uh why..?
Them> I got af2 now bish!
Me> Uhh but for most nukes Mahatma is better.
Them> I rather have AF2 pants.
Me> *explains stats*
Them> Yanno, I never even thought about it like that... guess I should keep legs.

People don't even consider it...

 

[Jakey]

Well I've talked to BLM before and the conversation goes like this...

Them> I just got my AF2 legs!!
Me> Congrats!
Them> Finally can sell my mahatma pants.
Me> Uh why..?
Them> I got af2 now bish!
Me> Uhh but for most nukes Mahatma is better.
Them> I rather have AF2 pants.
Me> *explains stats*
Them> Yanno, I never even thought about it like that... guess I should keep legs.

People don't even consider it...

it's people like that who keep us in buisness though. If everyone was an uber blm no on would care about us ; ;

 

[metachronism]

My blm isn't anywhere near 75 so you can laugh this off it as some ramblings of a rdm... but, with regard to the case of the pants... 5 int translates to what, 10-30 damage on a ga3 under equal conditions? And don't get me started on the ineffectiveness of raising int in an effort to lower your resist rates...

if you just use thundaga3 at every occasion, yes, I totally agree the mahatma is superior, but if you actually cared about minimizing resists and maximizing damage (i'm ignoring the inherent resistance to elements the mob may have), the matk+5 (the actual effect of the pants on the correct day), combined with the damage bonus (what was it, another 5%?) and resist bonus (whatever it is, i recall it was significant enough to be noticeable) of the day, the af2 might very well outweigh what the mahatma can get you. It's also another 2m(is that how much they were?) you can divert to other needs (and a freed inventory slot).

As for the enmity, yeah, -2 is significant but, 99% of the blms i see on the server only care about doing big damage <.<

 

[Bajaratt]

My blm isn't anywhere near 75 so you can laugh this off it as some ramblings of a rdm... but, with regard to the case of the pants... 5 int translates to what, 10-30 damage on a ga3 under equal conditions? And don't get me started on the ineffectiveness of raising int in an effort to lower your resist rates...

if you just use thundaga3 at every occasion, yes, I totally agree the mahatma is superior, but if you actually cared about minimizing resists and maximizing damage (i'm ignoring the inherent resistance to elements the mob may have), the matk+5 (the actual effect of the pants on the correct day), combined with the damage bonus (what was it, another 5%?) and resist bonus (whatever it is, i recall it was significant enough to be noticeable) of the day, the af2 might very well outweigh what the mahatma can get you. It's also another 2m(is that how much they were?) you can divert to other needs (and a freed inventory slot).

As for the enmity, yeah, -2 is significant but, 99% of the blms i see on the server only care about doing big damage <.<

Firestreak is saying that yes, AF2 pants are better on the correct day, but the other 87.5% of the time they're worse than mahatma pants. He's also saying that people are ignoring that fact and only wearing AF2 pants, for no good reason, and that's where he's having a problem. If it's the correct day, wear AF2, if it's not wear mahatma pants; that's what Firestreak is saying.

 

[metachronism]

I think what you're saying is covered by the "if all you ever use is thundaga3" clause

What I'm saying is, if you were conscious about effectiveness, you probably *should* be using the correct spell for the day, along with the af2. It's not like thundaga3 is the only spell you have. I haven't actually done the math or anything, but I'm pretty sure the average-case damage by using the correct element will come close to, or perhaps even exceed what you may get by using mahatma and using thundaga3 all the time, if you consider resists.

 

[Uzor]

I think what you're saying is covered by the "if all you ever use is thundaga3" clause

What I'm saying is, if you were conscious about effectiveness, you probably *should* be using the correct spell for the day, along with the af2. It's not like thundaga3 is the only spell you have. I haven't actually done the math or anything, but I'm pretty sure the average-case damage by using the correct element will come close to, or perhaps even exceed what you may get by using mahatma and using thundaga3 all the time, if you consider resists.

Thunder IV > Thundaga III for normal nuking ~.~ only stupid people use Thundaga III when nuking normally =/ And you're neglecting the fact that Thunder IV and Blizzard IV are the strongest spells (except -ga, but w /e...), and also monster resistance. Good luck casting Blizzard on a Ice elemental on Iceday, or Stone on Kirin on Earthsday.

 

[Firestreak]

I explained the reason why the focus tends to shift towards Blizzard 4 and Thunder 4 on the previous page.

I'm going to emphasize the Blizzard 4 spell again because..

90% of the mobs BLM fights are weak to Blizzard.
The staff gives 10 Elemental magic 5 INT.

Then thunder 4 because at base it's the most MP efficient nuke(not counting drain) there is.

As well big nukes are more time efficient and time = MP.

BLMs merit Blizzard and Thunder for a reason. They always cast those 2 spells(even with their AF2 legs on a different day). BLM don't cast those out of stupidity or because they simply get off on big numbers. They're more efficient and all around better.

 

[Bajaratt]

I think what you're saying is covered by the "if all you ever use is thundaga3" clause

What I'm saying is, if you were conscious about effectiveness, you probably *should* be using the correct spell for the day, along with the af2. It's not like thundaga3 is the only spell you have. I haven't actually done the math or anything, but I'm pretty sure the average-case damage by using the correct element will come close to, or perhaps even exceed what you may get by using mahatma and using thundaga3 all the time, if you consider resists.

That's assuming that you're not bursting off a skillchain or that you're not counting for the mob's resistances. More situational benefits that ignore the fact that Mahatma pants are better 87.5% of the time.

 

[Firestreak]

Leveling BLM on the way up, you have probably noticed that you get your biggest boost level throughout your tier once you get into the Fire/Blizzard/Thunder spells, and the other 3 are a much more moderate damage boost. The MP costs however don't increase proportionally.

Note:
Thunder 4 - 171 MP
Blizzard 4 - 164 MP - 4% less MP
Fire 4 - 157 MP - 4% less MP
Aero 4- 150 MP - 4% less MP

Now if you pay attention to the DMG dealt, the base % of damage increase is higher along the last few tier 4 nukes, as they each give a huge boost. Just off my own guess I'd say this those last few are closer to 8-10 % damage boosts over their previous. Then they had the added bonus of not only being more MP efficient, but..

MORE DAMAGE.

Being that BLM is a damage dealer, more damage is a good thing. Shaving 7 MP here and 12 MP there is nice but more DMG compressed into less nukes is more time to rest and cancel that all out. Yes, spells like Thundaga 3 push past that but now you're talking about the difference between 171 and 322. It's not the same as 171 to 164. That MP difference is not noticable.

And one more thing to tack on:

BLM shouldn't rest after every single nuke. You should get a couple nukes off at least. In which case... thanks to spell timers, you can't get 2 Stone 4s off in succession.

What might be nice is Blizz 4, then swap to day of week /w AF2 for a followup nuke.

But even on Thunder and Ice day, I use Mahatma pants for the 2nd nuke I'm getting off.

 

[Osse]

And by the way, you mention day of the week as a huge factor in your endgame spell choices. Have fun fighting Kirin on earthsday.

If you are wise, you choice of spells will be based upon the mobs' weakness, THE DAY OF THE WEEK, and any prevaling elemental effects.

You must have missed that part, so I highlighted it for easier reading.
I don't accuse you of trying to MB Blizzard 4 on Shiva, so please don't try to distort what I'm saying. If your arguments have merit, you shouldn't need to resort to cheap debate tricks.

As for merits in Ice and Thunder, it was already mentioned. However, not everyone has a few merits in each, especially when they can first equip the AF2 pants at lv 72(ish?). But yes, if you pumped a few 100k limit points into Ice and Thunder, then you should be using those spells, as another poster pointed out before you, negating any need to mention it.

As for the rest, I'm actually doing some tests on Effeciency (damage:MP), Power (normally work/time but here = damage:time) and the exact % bonus to each for casting a spell on the corresponding day of the week. Since this requires waiting for the right game day, this will take a few RL days. I will say that what data I have gathered so far shows Firestreak to be correct on Effeciency and Power increasing as the spell level increases. However, I never noticed it before in casual observation because the increase is so slight. I'll see if I can dig out my old Statistics notes and run a t-test to see if it's actually statistically significant.

 

[metachronism]

I specifically removed mob resistance out of the picture *because* people will come up with marginal scenarios such as "casting ice on an ice elemental on an ice day"--surely a moot argument.

And of course, my thundaga3 comment is merely to poke fun at the all too common mentality of the blms to just cast the biggest spell they've got--no offense to the blms, but you can't deny they're out there.

The case for Ice staff, I certainly agree; harkens back to the days of the distortion craze.

But I happen to know of the phenomenon of the blms going "look at that, i did xxx damage" but being careful not to make comments when they are pitifully resisted. I'm sure you all have seen it too. Now that I'm not at work, I can actually do the calculations:

Here are the base damage of tier 4 spells:

stone iv: 391
water iv: 420
aero iv: 450
fire iv: 482
blizzard iv: 516
thunder iv: 551

(these are base damages calculated at int65 with a 5 difference between mob int (60). if you're interested, you can see the jp calculator here" http://f4.aaa.livedoor.jp/~rmkta/magic/) The 5 difference, to account for the fact that mahatma will have 5 more int

now, let's see what happens when you add in the day bonus (I did check the effect of the day, and it was 10%) and the af2 bonus (5%), but take away 5 int, simulating the int difference between mahatma and af2:

stone iv: 438
water iv: 471
aero iv: 506
fire iv: 542
blizzard iv: 581
thunder iv: 622

Now let's see what happens when you're using the spells on the wrong days (i.e. days that give you penalties, wearing the mahatma)

stone iv: 351
water iv: 378
aero iv: 405
fire iv: 433
blizzard iv: 464
thunder iv: 495

Let's look at stone iv, the weakest one that no one ever seems to want to use, and thunder iv that everyone loves.

What happens on earth day?

stone iv: 438 (138 MP)
thunder iv: 495 (171 MP)

It still might look like you get a better deal with thunder iv. hey, you do ~57 damage more in the same time span, right? Now, consider resists.

I don't have %s on the resists--but they're a lot higher than the blms would want to admit. Let's for the sake of simplicity, say that stone will be half-resisted 3% and thunder 8% on some hypothetical high-level mob. I would say the gap would be bigger, but it's enough to make the point. Fair enough?

average damage of stone iv: 431.43
average damage of thunder iv: 475.08

Of course, this is only an average case. In the case that you actually *do* get the half-resist, your raison d'etre as a blm is nil.

So let's say you're doing a MB now. Good ol light. You probably aren't going to get resisted on a mb unless it's some hnm, but let's see what we have on the light side. (MB Bonus is a constant factor so it's pointless to include):

case: wind day

aero iv: 506
fire iv: 482
thunder iv: 551

case: fire day

fire iv: 542
aero iv: 450
thunder iv: 551

case: thunder day (moot point)

thunder iv: 622 af2
thunder iv: 551 mahatma
aero iv: 450
fire iv: 482

By sticking to the day of the week, you're doing *at worst* 8.1% less on damage, but with a higher chance that you will not be half-resisted. And, of course, nothing prevents you from taking a chance thunder iv with af2 at 1.2~1.8% less damage as mahatma (as you'll see below)

I don't know--is it as trivial as you guys make it out to be? Depending on the actual resistance difference, mahatma may actually be hurting. And, of course, to finish it off, here is what you get on the off-days with af2:

stone iv: 381
water iv: 410
aero iv: 440
fire iv: 472
blizzard iv: 506
thunder iv: 541

a constant difference of 10dmg--in the case of thunder iv, you lose 1.8% damage. And of course, the higher your actual int is, the smaller that ratio becomes. So, is it worth losing 1.2~1.8% damage on the "87.5%" of the time and getting an additional 5% on the other 12.5% and saving an inventory slot and 2m?

To put this into perspective, the loss of 1.2~1.8% damage is basically saying a 1 hour battle will last 1 hour, 1 min and 10 seconds. I don't know. I say to each his own To whomever that 1.2%~1.8% is worth the inventory slot and 2m, sure, go for it. But I don't think the ones who choose not to go that way deserves to be belittled.

 

[Osse]

Voice of Reason

Sorry for the post count +1, but this is the rare instance where I couldn't have said it better if I tried. I'm not sure I should bother with my little tests after this.

 

[Firestreak]

I'm not trying to distort, I'm trying to emphasize the signifigance that's being downplayed.

What would be interesting is AF2 legs and every elemental sea obi.

Unfortunately even then it might only add Fire 4 and at the most Aero 4 efficiency. But then you still would want Mahatma for the second spell you cast unless you're going to be casting 1 spell only the whole party.

 

[Firestreak]

Not to downplay a well worked out argument, but those numbers seem somewhat useless considering they are based off what would appear to be... a naked BLM fighting ITs?

To explain further: The damage increased will be ampliphied in an actual battle scenario... being that I don't have actual numbers in front of me, I'll have to burn off a few nukes to show what I mean.

 

[metachronism]

The 5 int difference literally equals a 10dmg constant (theoretically). On a MB, it becomes 13 damage. After HQ staves, that's 11.5 (i believe it's rounded down to 11) and 14.5 (round down to 14), respectively. And, of course, the negligible lowering of resistance.

Perhaps some people can test it in-game to verify this. But when you have numbers, I don't think you can claim anyone to be subjective.

So yeah, the 2 million gil soliloquy of the day: to 10 dmg or not to 10 damage. Hamlet was a rich mofo like some of you guys though :/

 

[metachronism]

Not to downplay a well worked out argument, but those numbers seem somewhat useless considering they are based off what would appear to be... a naked BLM fighting ITs?

To explain further: The damage increased will be ampliphied in an actual battle scenario... being that I don't have actual numbers in front of me, I'll have to burn off a few nukes to show what I mean.

Actually, it's the equivalent of a naked blm nuking an EM blm mob. If you go int crazy with eq, you might have +70 or something, but that's that. an IT mob will have higher int too. The damage difference will still be (int difference) x 2 as you'll see from playing around with that calculator. There is no direct level penalty like melee damage, which is part of the reason blms are so strong against off-the-scale powerful mobs.

The numbers will go up by a constant factor with the presence of elemental staves, moldavite and what-nots, but the delta damage, will be as I described before, I believe

 

[Passions]

Elemental magic skill reducises the resist rate and allowes for peak damage of your spell. Ever casted on a too weak bitch outside of jeuno for 1400 then went xping and only did 1000? Take that into consideration .

I did not directly say it adds damage like MAB gear, but I sure as hell know that lacking the top of the line gear I was surpasing or staying damn close to those in it.


As for the inv but, don't forget pan is 75blm and rdm on the same character /shock and passions is 75nin and 62thf.

And seriously, lose the fireworks you never use if you got that big of a gear problem you can't full support you jobs with 60inv80mog house and however much mog safe let alone moglocker that for a few hunderd xp you can get 40 spaces for over a month.


Yeah uzor lets stick a slow stronger on somethat is literally dieing in about 30 seconds while your mnk makes you spam cure 4 on his ass cause of aoes.


Turbon > o hat? Most ws used are multi-hit ws which means your gonna hit more strikes. But I guess all those parsers lie don't they. Let alone your getting in more hits then you are whiffing away whith all haste gear on, while your at it why don't you wear courage rings usable since 14-75.


If you don't care enough about the job to properly equip yourself when playing it, you probably half assed it in the first place with the same excuess.

Take that gear from your 37 sub job you "might' use again to a mule because you can't sit there and honestly say you got over 140 pieces of ra/ex gear for the 1 or 2 75 jobs you may have. If you do, get storage space in your mog. But hell I got plenty of room to hold my gear for 2 75jobs and lvl cap stuff but oh right I'm spoiled cause I put more effort into which character can lvl which job. Or is it my 9 mules that hold all the gear for my sub jobs and meds I use ocasionally that bug you?


Is there really 140 pieces of gear for 1 job in this whole game ra/ex that a lvl 75 would consider even situational?

While your at it why don't you just sell all your gear and play naked and don't buy all those situational spells like barspells.

Maybe sell those fancy rings for one nice set of balence rings, look were saving inv space already woot.

 

[Nasya]

you can get 50 for mog locker just gotta wait for conquest for second upgrade ^-^

 

[Firestreak]

Ok there are a few different things you're going to want to compare here.

Basically there's a few things we wish to know.

% bonus added by use of AF2 legs + casting on the day of the week.
% bonus added by casting the a more powerful spell.
% MP added by casting a more powerful spell.
% damage added by wearing Mahatma when not casting the right day.
And...
Max damage overall for different nukes.
DMG/MP ratio based on different nukes within tier 4.

So the question then becomes, if you're going to wear only one, which is it?

Factors that shouldn't be ignored:

You can't cast 2 of the same tier 4 back to back. Therefore unless you cast only 1 nuke between resting(i.e. you're a stupid motherfucker), half of your spells are going to be the wrong day of the week at least.

Ice has built in 5 int(we're ignoring elemental on exp mobs).

I don't have parsed data, but I do believe, that at most you're going to get use out of your AF2 efficiently on two of the 8 days.

Depending on your sliding scale of dmg/mp versus overall damage you might find it to be closer to use 6/8 days. I think the higher your damage grows, the more merits you get, the less you would consider using earth-fire.

But even if you felt the opposite way completely, there's still light and darksday. There's still your 2nd nuke. You're still gimping yourself versus your old pants over half the time. As you begin to see the purpose of blizz/thunder, it turns from being gimped out on damage...

62.5%(2 nukes, 6 in 8 days used)
and then...
88.5%(The chances of being those 2 days of 8, and being the first nuke)

You will see... when examining all those factors... overall... mahatma > AF2 pants.

If you were going to hold only 1.

 

[Uzor]

And seriously, lose the fireworks you never use if you got that big of a gear problem you can't full support you jobs with 60inv80mog house and however much mog safe let alone moglocker that for a few hunderd xp you can get 40 spaces for over a month.


Yeah uzor lets stick a slow stronger on somethat is literally dieing in about 30 seconds while your mnk makes you spam cure 4 on his ass cause of aoes.
.

First of, I don't have any gear problem. I have gear for 4 jobs, and I switch it back and forth all the time. I also have level capped gear, but with 80 safe, 60 in, and 50 mog locker, space isn't *THAT* much of an issue.

As for the second part, please do tell me what you have been fighting if you're spamming Cure IV on the MNK... because that have never happened to me, ever. And even if you DO have to do it, some how, for some reason, the stronger slow, blind, paralyze would prevent others from getting hit, thus saving more MP as slow + blind + paralyze costs less MP then a Cure III. So even gettign the mob paralyzed twice would effectively save 46 MP.

Let's say a mob lives for 30 second, and let's say that during those 30 seconds, the mob have time ot attack 9 times (as I remember playing NIN, and the wait between attacks was slightly less then the cast time on utsu: ichi).

Actually, let's make it 10 times to make it easier to calculate, so let's say it lives for 35 sec. Now, as a slow can slow 30% at the most, with roughly 50 MND over the target, that's 3 hits per battle you save.

So over the course of 3 hours, you will fight roughly 308 battles, and since the monster attacks roughly 10 times (not calculation double attacks), the mosnter will attack roughly 3080 times. With a strong slow of 30%, you will reduce that to 2156 hits. That's 924 hits reduced by slow alone.

So let's say you have a PLD tank, and let's say he take 50 damage per hit from them. That's 154000 damage taken total for the PLD.
154000/198(Cure III with light staff)=777,77... total cures
777,77... * 46 = 35777,77... MP spent without slow.

With slow, you have 2156 hits.
2156 * 50 = 107800
107800/198(Cure III with light staff)= 544,44... total cures
544,44... * 46 = 25044,44... MP spent with slow.

35777,77 - 25044,44 = 10733,33 MP saved.

It sounds like a lot, but really, 46 MP every 35 sec for 3 hours adds up. That's almost 100 MP every min.

So if a maxed out Slow alone can save 10733,33 MP every 3 hours, then imagine what Slow + Paralyze + Blind can save.

Also, I realize that a killing speed of 35 sec for 3 hours might be a bit fast with a PLD tank, which is also why PLD tanks are not good for roaming parties, but the same goes in a normal party with a PLD tank, as the monster will still hit the same ammount of times if you always fight a mob.