Major Help Needed! Stop Bill 156 from going in to Tokyo Law!

[Gerry]

The saying "Making a mountain out of a molehill" comes to mind when I read the OP.

This is a local ordinance law, not national, so all producers would have to do is move outside of Tokyo's jurisdiction to circumvent this "travesty". If it effects products being sold in Tokyo as well (skimmed over the OP), then they'll just slap labels on it to CTA. It doesn't seem like this really effects products being sold abroad, just locally.

Weeaboo's just need to calm down.

Q: This is only sexual stuff, right?
A: No. It reads "anything that may hinder the healthy growth of youths by stirring sexual emotions, promoting cruel behaviour, or causing suicidal or criminal tendencies", which is a purposefully ambiguous blanket statement that can pretty much be applied to anything. Even Doraemon could be considered 18+ under this.

Q: Elaborate?
A: No criminal acts. That means no killing, no stealing, no carrying of weapons, no sharing of bicycles, no smoking/drinking for minors (in fact since it says "promoting" criminal behaviour, it could be argued that no smoking/drinking will be allowed at all). Basically anything with action could be considered promoting cruel/criminal behaviour. Meanwhile the "stirring sexual emotions" part will similarly affect anything with fanservice or romance. So basically, only stuff like Hidamari Sketch will remain.

Q: What will this affect?
A: All forms of fiction except novels and live action.

Q: How will it affect them?
A: In Tokyo, everything has to be classified by the industry under either all-ages (below 18) and 18+, and stores will have to make sure minors can't get 18+ stuff.

Q: So just slap an 18+ sticker and life goes on as usual, no big deal, right?
A: No. If they can't sell it to minors they won't bother making it in the first place.

Q: Only Tokyo, so move out, no big deal.
A: Tokyo is the economic centre of Japan, plus all of the big companies honsha are located in Tokyo (some have their own ridiculously expensive skyscrapers located in ridiculously expensive districts). The rest of the country will be affected. Plus if it's passed in Tokyo, other prefectures are very likely to follow suit, as always.

Also, Dan Kanemitsu is a translator for manga living in Japan and had attended the original hearing about this bill in order to voice some international opposition to this bill.

In any case, this bill has passed into law:

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2010-12-15/full-tokyo-assembly-passes-youth-ordinance-bill

This. Isn't. Over.

Edit: There is 4-5 months until this bill is officially enacted, so there is time left. Furthermore, here are some series that would be designated as "harmful material" under this act from my understanding of it, major ones will be highlighted, and will be in no particular order.

Azumanga Daioh (School settings not allowed)
B.Ichi (Violence)
Bakuman
Bamboo Blade
Basilisk
Berserk
Black Butler
Black Cat
Black God
Bleach
Buso Renkin
Case Closed (Detective Conan)
Karin (Chibi Vampire)
Claymore
Code Geass
D.Gray-Man
Death Note (While not sexually explicit, the nature of crimes being committed in the series will definitely be deemed as "Harmful")
Dr.Slump
Dragonball
Eyeshield 21
Fairy Tail
Fullmetal Alchemist
Gantz
Gintama
Hayate the combat butler
Hellsing
Hero Tales
Higurashi
Hunter X Hunter
JoJo's Bizarre Adventure
Karakuridoji Ultimo (Stan Lee would be pissed, as this is a repeat of what happened i the 1950s, I will be informing him)

... Let's just say practically EVERY manga I have and more.

Now, there is supposed to be some kind of regulatory board that will decide what is "Harmful" and what isn't, but considering the extremely vague nature of this bill, I don't think this will turn out well for old and new mangaka.

 

[Raesvelg]

I'm going to pull something directly from Kanemitsu's site to illustrate my point, such as it is:

As you already know, Tokyo already has the power to designate anything that is too sexually stimulating for minors OR too sadistic for minors OR too likely to cause criminal acts among minors OR cause suicide among minors as “harmful material”, and force such material to be treated as adult only material.

With the passage of Bill 156, the Tokyo Metropolitan Government will have the additional power to restrict any manga, anime and video games (but not live photography works) that feature any sexual acts that would violate criminal codes or Tokyo ordinances OR sexual depictions between close relatives who could not legally get married to be treated as adult material IF they are presented in “unjustifiably glorified or exaggerated manner.”

HOLY SHIT.

THEY MADE IT ILLEGAL TO SELL COMICS DEPICTING RAPE AND INCEST IN AN UNJUSTIFIABLY GLORIFIED OR EXAGGERATED MANNER TO MINORS.

THE FUCKING WORLD IS GOING TO END.

The whole bit about "anything that is too sexually stimulating for minors OR too sadistic for minors OR too likely to cause criminal acts among minors OR cause suicide among minors" is stuff that the Tokyo authorities can already declare harmful to minors.

Of the ones I'm passingly familiar with on your list there Gerry, I can't think of a single one that would be affected by this new provision. Not one. A good number of them fall into the category of things that would affected by the old provision of the law, but they've obviously been operating under it for a while now, so it's not likely they're going to be shut down anytime soon.

 

[Gerry]

I'm going to pull something directly from Kanemitsu's site to illustrate my point, such as it is:


HOLY SHIT.

THEY MADE IT ILLEGAL TO SELL COMICS DEPICTING RAPE AND INCEST IN AN UNJUSTIFIABLY GLORIFIED OR EXAGGERATED MANNER TO MINORS.

THE FUCKING WORLD IS GOING TO END.

The whole bit about "anything that is too sexually stimulating for minors OR too sadistic for minors OR too likely to cause criminal acts among minors OR cause suicide among minors" is stuff that the Tokyo authorities can already declare harmful to minors.

Of the ones I'm passingly familiar with on your list there Gerry, I can't think of a single one that would be affected by this new provision. Not one. A good number of them fall into the category of things that would affected by the old provision of the law, but they've obviously been operating under it for a while now, so it's not likely they're going to be shut down anytime soon.

Again, I have to refer to this.

Q: This is only sexual stuff, right?
A: No. It reads "anything that may hinder the healthy growth of youths by stirring sexual emotions, promoting cruel behaviour, or causing suicidal or criminal tendencies", which is a purposefully ambiguous blanket statement that can pretty much be applied to anything. Even Doraemon could be considered 18+ under this.

Q: Elaborate?
A: No criminal acts. That means no killing, no stealing, no carrying of weapons, no sharing of bicycles, no smoking/drinking for minors (in fact since it says "promoting" criminal behaviour, it could be argued that no smoking/drinking will be allowed at all). Basically anything with action could be considered promoting cruel/criminal behaviour. Meanwhile the "stirring sexual emotions" part will similarly affect anything with fanservice or romance. So basically, only stuff like Hidamari Sketch will remain.

Edit: And even then, Rape and Incest stuff which are marked as 18+ already won't be affected by this. This is targetting MAINSTREAM CONTENT!

My point still remains. Essentially, this is the exact same witch hunt that occured in the 1950's for Comics in the US.

 

[Raesvelg]

And again, I have to refer to this:

As you already know, Tokyo already has the power to designate anything that is too sexually stimulating for minors OR too sadistic for minors OR too likely to cause criminal acts among minors OR cause suicide among minors as “harmful material”, and force such material to be treated as adult only material.

The key phrase here is "already has the power".

What you're talking about in your little Q&As is stuff that they had the power to regulate before the addendum. Read your primary source.

In short, you're protesting the wrong thing. You're protesting against a perfectly logical addendum onto an overly vague and restrictive law that was already in effect.

 

[Gerry]

Which we survived. Comics got *better* after that shit went away, and we didn't rely on foreign civilian intervention to get it done.

The 1990s were more damaging to Comic books than the Hayes Code ever was.

Except this time we were informed about it, opposed it greatly, and it still went through via smear campaigns from a racist, sexist, facist, xenophobic, homophobic asshole who has actively lied to get what he wants and made exceptions for other media because he once produced similar material for those media, with the kick in the nuts being it's Mainstream Shonen and Seinen being targetted, rather than the real nasty stuff which is already self rated as 18+. The funny thing here is this, Japan's communist party is AGAINST this bill.

Also, Raes:

As you already know, Tokyo already has the power to designate anything that is too sexually stimulating for minors OR too sadistic for minors OR too likely to cause criminal acts among minors OR cause suicide among minors as “harmful material”, and force such material to be treated as adult only material.

I'm gonna be asking him about that later as I get the feeling that while it was in law, it was something that was never actually enforced.

 

[Tymon]

The panic about this is completely incomprehensible.

Tokyo is not the only city in Japan. It's not the only LARGE city in Japan, and it's not the only city in Japan with publishing company headquarters.

Yokohama, Kobe, Nagano, Osaka..

Come on, now.

You can show me as many quotes from irrelevant people who can't predict the future as you want, and I'm going to ignore every word of it and continue to tell you that nothing even remotely as significant or apocalyptic as you imply will happen.

Are you aware of how large the anime/manga industry is? Yet, there are people implying that just because they can't shelf it in the front door of stores in Tokyo, that suddenly they will go from overwhelming profit to a deficit worthy of collapsing the industry?

It's just not going to happen. Period.

Even if there were more realistic problems, it's still folly to predict the worst possible scenario and write it off as inevitable fact in the first place.

 

[Gerry]

The panic about this is completely incomprehensible.

Tokyo is not the only city in Japan. It's not the only LARGE city in Japan, and it's not the only city in Japan with publishing company headquarters.

Yokohama, Kobe, Nagano, Osaka..

Come on, now.

You can show me as many quotes from irrelevant people who can't predict the future as you want, and I'm going to ignore every word of it and continue to tell you that nothing even remotely as significant or apocalyptic as you imply will happen.

Are you aware of how large the anime/manga industry is? Yet, there are people implying that just because they can't shelf it in the front door of stores in Tokyo, that suddenly they will go from overwhelming profit to a deficit worthy of collapsing the industry?

It's just not going to happen. Period.

Even if there were more realistic problems, it's still folly to predict the worst possible scenario and write it off as inevitable fact in the first place.

If this bill does stick (As illegal as it is, as it violates Article 21 of the Japanese Constitution), I really do hope that publishers can move out to places like Kyoto. However, Tokyo is the capital of Japan in more ways than one, and from what I've heard from people, if you can't do business there, you'd have trouble doing business elsewhere.

 

[Raesvelg]

The 1990s were more damaging to Comic books than the Hayes Code ever was.

What, you think the blatant attempt to cash in on a perception of collectibility amongst comic speculators did damage to the industry? I thought people liked having 6 variant covers of individual comics, and massive print runs of heavily marketed "special editions" sealed in plastic bags that would devour themselves after 10 years or so.

I'm gonna be asking him about that later as I get the feeling that while it was in law, it was something that was never actually enforced.

Which leads me, in part, to wonder why you think that this time is going to be different, particularly when the previous provisions of the law were so sweeping in comparison to the relatively narrow focus of these new provisions, at least the ones pertaining to the anime/manga industry.

All the new provisions do is make it illegal to market comics glorifying incest, rape, and prostitution to minors. You can still make them, they just have to be geared towards adults.

I fail to see why this is causing such an uproar.

Actually, no, I don't fail to see how it's causing an uproar, because from a fairly quick search I can determine that someone, fairly early on in the popularization of this crisis (probably some tard on /a/) mixed up the whole of the existing ordinances with the new provisions that just came into effect. In short, they assumed that Bill 156 was, in fact, made up of the entirety of the "Tokyo Metropolitan Ordinance Regarding the Healthy Development of Youths", which has, in fact, been in effect for (again as determined by a cursory search) for at least six years.

 

[Raesvelg]

Variants are still around, to be sure. They're just nowhere near as marketed as they were back in the day..

Given that I work in a bookstore that also sells comics, games (non-electronic), and anime (we're your one-stop shop for most of your geekdom needs), I'm aware. It's actually on the upsurge again, which I mostly blame on the increasing popularity of the medium through the lens of feature films. But nothing really like that old X-Men cover from when Jim Lee came back to the series, where they had what, 4 variant versions, and one variant of the variants that had all 4 covers in a fold-out format?

 

[Miros]

Everyone, write my city mayor asking to impose the city-wide smoking ban in Summerville, SC please. Your opinion as non-local residents count.

Yeah, Molehill < Mountain.

wtf? For once, I don't think Elemmire is being a bitch.

Sounds like a manga writer...yeah, I was right.

He's just being passionate about something he really believes in. The same way I follow tax laws or gay rights, it's different but we're all entitled to be passionate about something. D= I don't know why everyone jumps on Gerry so much about liking Japan things so much. I LIKE PENIS MORE THEN HE LIKES JAPAN!

 

[Dancingweapon]

LEAVE GERRY ALONE!

 

[Raesvelg]

He's just being passionate about something he really believes in. The same way I follow tax laws or gay rights, it's different but we're all entitled to be passionate about something. D= I don't know why everyone jumps on Gerry so much about liking Japan things so much. I LIKE PENIS MORE THEN HE LIKES JAPAN!

What are you, some kind of penis fanboy?

For some people, (I could name names, but won't) I suspect the "Jump on Gerry" is part of the general backlash against, for lack of a better word, Japanophiles. Pretty much anything that hits a certain critical mass of popularity will invariably create a group that decries it, primarily based on the fact that it is popular, and everyone loves a rebel right? I'm different right? I'm not like those anime fanboys, I'm an individual!!

In my case, I'm jumping on Gerry (this time) because I think he's misrepresenting the situation, misunderstanding the situation, and advocating an essentially meaningless action based upon those mistakes.

I also get a little incensed when someone puts out a law designed to curb the peddling of porn to kids and a bunch of rabid fanboys start screaming "HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED!! NOW YOU SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM!!!!"

 

[Gerry]

What are you, some kind of penis fanboy?

For some people, (I could name names, but won't) I suspect the "Jump on Gerry" is part of the general backlash against, for lack of a better word, Japanophiles. Pretty much anything that hits a certain critical mass of popularity will invariably create a group that decries it, primarily based on the fact that it is popular, and everyone loves a rebel right? I'm different right? I'm not like those anime fanboys, I'm an individual!!

In my case, I'm jumping on Gerry (this time) because I think he's misrepresenting the situation, misunderstanding the situation, and advocating an essentially meaningless action based upon those mistakes.

I also get a little incensed when someone puts out a law designed to curb the peddling of porn to kids and a bunch of rabid fanboys start screaming "HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED!! NOW YOU SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM!!!!"

Oh for fucks sake DO I HAVE TO SAY IT AGAIN?! That sort of stuff is already marked as 18+!!!! It. Is. Already. Out. Of. Childrens. Reach! What this bill will do is hit out against MAINSTREAM MANGA SERIES FOR HAVING SMALL AMOUNTS OF FANSERVICE, VIOLENCE, SMOKING, ETC.!

For god sake I am trying to be nice here but my patience is really running thin now. Should I get Kanemitsu to fucking spell it outy for you or do you want a fucking picture painted?!

 

[Dancingweapon]

On Gerry's side manga does have age recommendations on it. I could even prove it with a picture of the fairly easy to spot "M for mature" label on battle royale.

 

[Lucki]

So they'll start slapping labels on their products, what's the big deal? Maybe they'll do something like ESBR. I can't imagine that they'll implement this without some kind of standard guideline for producers to follow.

That'd be just sirry.

 

[Gerry]

On Gerry's side manga does have age recommendations on it. I could even prove it with a picture of the fairly easy to spot "M for mature" label on battle royale.

That would be the US ratings.

For Japan, most of the more riskier subject matter is pre-shrink wrapped, so you can only read it after you've bought it. How do I know? I purchased the Higurashi manga direction from a book store in Japan, brand new, and when I got it, it was shrink wrapped.

So they'll start slapping labels on their products, what's the big deal? Maybe they'll do something like ESBR. I can't imagine that they'll implement this without some kind of standard guideline for producers to follow.

That'd be just sirry.

Allow me to put it this way.

The equivalent this bill is doing is what the ESRB is doing with Game Ratings, except the ratings are either E or AO. Absolutely NO MIDDLE GROUND! If it is slightly objectional in it's subject matter, immediate AO and hidden from view. Sales would be decreased expinentially (my spelling sucks I know) and publishers would go bankrupt, making people lose thousands of jobs and making Japan go into a worse economic state.

 

[Dancingweapon]

That would be the US ratings.

For Japan, most of the more riskier subject matter is pre-shrink wrapped, so you can only read it after you've bought it. How do I know? I purchased the Higurashi manga direction from a book store in Japan, brand new, and when I got it, it was shrink wrapped.

All of the Battle Royale's I bought came shrink wrapped. They were bought from a book store and some from an online retailer.

 

[Raesvelg]

Oh for fucks sake DO I HAVE TO SAY IT AGAIN?! That sort of stuff is already marked as 18+!!!! It. Is. Already. Out. Of. Childrens. Reach! What this bill will do is hit out against MAINSTREAM MANGA SERIES FOR HAVING SMALL AMOUNTS OF FANSERVICE, VIOLENCE, SMOKING, ETC.!

For god sake I am trying to be nice here but my patience is really running thin now. Should I get Kanemitsu to fucking spell it outy for you or do you want a fucking picture painted?!

You should get Kanemitsu to spell it out for you, because the pre-existing laws already did that. This is the mistake that you're laboring under; the idea that this new provision will be doing all of those things.

Those things are already restricted, within limits, to manga/anime targeted at minors. The new provision that will be added to those restrictions is very specific and covers illegal sex acts and unlawful relationships.

Period.

It also does a variety of other things, like making it harder for parents to deactivate the internet filters (or, presumably, for kids to pretend to be their parents to deactivate them) on cellphones owned by minors.

And yes, Gerry, that kind of thing is marketed towards minors. Hence the new provision.

Now, and this one might drag Miros into the mix, same-sex marriages are illegal in Japan, and as such would fall under the auspices of the new provision, making their depiction require an 18+ classification.

 

[Gerry]

You should get Kanemitsu to spell it out for you, because the pre-existing laws already did that. This is the mistake that you're laboring under; the idea that this new provision will be doing all of those things.

Those things are already restricted, within limits, to manga/anime targeted at minors. The new provision that will be added to those restrictions is very specific and covers illegal sex acts and unlawful relationships.

Period.

It also does a variety of other things, like making it harder for parents to deactivate the internet filters (or, presumably, for kids to pretend to be their parents to deactivate them) on cellphones owned by minors.

And yes, Gerry, that kind of thing is marketed towards minors. Hence the new provision.

Now, and this one might drag Miros into the mix, same-sex marriages are illegal in Japan, and as such would fall under the auspices of the new provision, making their depiction require an 18+ classification.

Read my earlier post just now. More of the objectional stuff is shrink wrapped. What this law will do is take anything and everything that is slightly objectional off the market and out of view.

 

[Miros]

What are you, some kind of penis fanboy?

For some people, (I could name names, but won't) I suspect the "Jump on Gerry" is part of the general backlash against, for lack of a better word, Japanophiles. Pretty much anything that hits a certain critical mass of popularity will invariably create a group that decries it, primarily based on the fact that it is popular, and everyone loves a rebel right? I'm different right? I'm not like those anime fanboys, I'm an individual!!


In my case, I'm jumping on Gerry (this time) because I think he's misrepresenting the situation, misunderstanding the situation, and advocating an essentially meaningless action based upon those mistakes.

I also get a little incensed when someone puts out a law designed to curb the peddling of porn to kids and a bunch of rabid fanboys start screaming "HELP! HELP! I'M BEING REPRESSED!! NOW YOU SEE THE VIOLENCE INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM!!!!"

Nah you're always good with me. You take the rational aspect which is A+. To me it was silly to say something like world hunger is > this bill. Well duh it is. But hell if I'm going to start feeding the hobos in Baltimore.