Military and homosexuals

[masterorion]

i stand corrected then as far as that law goes.
however, they do not jail you for homosexuality in the military. they just release you

edit: found this tidbit that says a little bit more than wiki doesnt
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAjimcrow.htm

"After the American Civil War most states in the South passed anti-African American legislation. These became known as Jim Crow laws."

"However, states in the Deep South continued their own policy of transport segregation."

"African American people who disobeyed the state's transport segregation policies were arrested and fined."
these so called laws werent implemented by united states governement. they were passed by state or local government just after the civil war

 

[Raesvelg]

i stand corrected then as far as that law goes.
however, they do not jail you for homosexuality in the military. they just release you

And your point is... what, exactly?

It's still a discriminatory law, not based on any form of behavior, but rather on who you choose to engage in that behavior with.

Sure, they don't arrest you. They just fire you.

We have laws against that, you know.

 

[masterorion]

yes, your right. but laws govern the general populous. they entered into a binding contract that states why they can and will release you for. they allow gays to enter. thats a fact. they allow them in freely. but the ONE part of the contract that they cant seem to hold is doing as they are told and not saying anything. people dont go around freely asking people, in the military, if they are gay. why would they go around freely stating they are gay, knowing full well, what the consequences are.

they need to keep their mouth shut, plain and simple. and yes, it is that easy. if gays want that changed. more power to them. im just stating the policy that has been around for decades. its worked just fine for that long. if they dont like it, dont join. if you feel you can follow the one policy they have, then do it. but dont go bitching and moaning when your reprimanded for breaking your contract.

what will happen is the homosexual population will be allowed in without a policy having them with hold their sexuality. i see that one coming by what obama states. great for them. no qualms here. but as alanon stated, there will be cohesion issues by the openly gay members and the rednecks or others that oppose their sexual pref. and believe me, there are alot of discriminating "rednecks" out there. not to mention the many normal people within the military that wont necessarily welcome them with open arms.

regardless of how this goes, the way the military is now is not going to change other than allowing gay members to verbally state that he/she is gay. they dont allow expression publicly when it comes to exceesive PDA, banners/flags, etc. it seems to me that people think that if they join, they will be allowed to express themselves just as they do in the outside world. as alanon said, they strip that right/ability from you.

 

[Grandphoenix]

The thing with the military being forgot is you're not an individual who's individuality and uniqueness means a damn. "Army of one", you're just a part of the cog, the only thing you have to distinguish among is your Rank/Pay grade. Hell the same could be said for civilians almost these days..

EEOC at the current time doesn't cover sexual preference (or obesity for the millions of obese in America) So until regulation is enacted to enforce such things threads like this will just turn into the nature of QCDN: NO U

 

[Halifirien]

yes, your right. but laws govern the general populous. they entered into a binding contract that states why they can and will release you for. they allow gays to enter. thats a fact. they allow them in freely. but the ONE part of the contract that they cant seem to hold is doing as they are told and not saying anything. people dont go around freely asking people, in the military, if they are gay. why would they go around freely stating they are gay, knowing full well, what the consequences are.

Nobody's disputing that gay people know going in that they're going to be held to a bullshit double standard of conduct we wouldn't require of hetero soldiers. The point is that we're reaching the point where it becomes more and more absurd to ask them to do that, pissing away all the time and hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars that goes into making a soldier.

 

[masterorion]

Nobody's disputing that gay people know going in that they're going to be held to a bullshit double standard of conduct we wouldn't require of hetero soldiers. The point is that we're reaching the point where it becomes more and more absurd to ask them to do that, pissing away all the time and hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars that goes into making a soldier.

what double standard is it that your speaking of? after the "dont ask dont tell" policy goes away?
if thats the case, the standards i had mentioned are, have been, and will always be in effect regardless of who you are.

 

[Halifirien]

what double standard is it that your speaking of?

The one that says gay soldiers can't say "I'm gay" without being discharged, while hetero soldiers can say "I'm straight" without penalty.

 

[masterorion]

The one that says gay soldiers can't say "I'm gay" without being discharged, while hetero soldiers can say "I'm straight" without penalty.

straight people just go around doing that. why is it gay people find that necessary? its no ones business.
ps, check your mail.

 

[Taurothar]

I don't personally understand why expression of sexuality is such an issue when expression of religion is perfectly fine. Correct me if I'm wrong (I probably am) but soldiers are allowed to carry religious texts/symbols, Muslims are allowed to pray at the necessary hours so long as it is within the freedom of their duties. Or for that matter even if they aren't allowed to *show* religion, they certainly can *speak of* religion. "I just went to church this Sunday and man was the pastor's daughter hot" etc... Especially with the political climate with religions these days, I'm shocked that doesn't appear more in the news that someone was discharged for this or that.

Now as far as the front line, foxhole combatants, I believe that as long as we don't allow females, we shouldn't allow gays. I'm all for gay rights, and equality in front of the law for *everyone*, but I start to disagree with allowing just anyone to the front lines if it's going to hurt the cohesion of a unit. There are literally *thousands* of jobs in the military, sometimes active combat should be left to the "crazy rednecks" that openly volunteer to get shot at. We've lost a lot of money in training, and a lot of talent by discharging homosexuals for being "caught", but perhaps it's not the policy but the reaction that needs changing. What if instead of discharging outright, they simply moved your position to one of equal pay grade in something that is also in your talent range? The female military presence has accepted this alternative job structure for decades; what's stopping the homosexual community?

I don't like his method but Masterorion has a point in that they signed a contract that strictly says it. While they may not like it, it's what they agreed to at the time. To an MMO community it should be thought of in the same regards as a EULA. You can play their game, but as soon as you get caught using a 3rd party program, as strictly disallowed by the EULA, you're banned. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. The military is only doing what is mandated of them by their rules and regulations, not what they specifically wanted to do. I know of at least one homosexual man who was discharged from the military who is still very close with members of his company and his CO. It wasn't *their* choice to kick him out, it was protocol. He doesn't blame them at all, despite being unhappy about the policy in the first place. You sign a contract, you break the contract, they can revoke your privileges. Even if they change policy, I'd be willing to bet they'd have to get every person to sign on the dotted line that they understand the changes, otherwise be subject to the original terms thereof. That is of course, unless that contract had a stipulation that it could be changed at will of the military without consent or notification of the person signing. I assume it's also, like most employment contracts these days, employment at will. They need no reason to fire you. They rarely invoke such strict punishment, but it is probably a power granted to your employer, the US Gov't.

 

[Tagrineth]

straight people just go around doing that. why is it gay people find that necessary? its no ones business.
ps, check your mail.

Look at it this way. Let's say there's some discussion in the barracks or whatever and everyone's recounting dating stories. You're a homosexual male sitting there listening to every other guy in the building, in turn, talk about their "hot dates" with random chicks, bragging about their sexual victories.

And you have a flat-out gag order to be the one dude that's sitting there with absolutely nothing you can contribute to the jovial banter, because if you say one word you're discharged.

Definitely doesn't sound like discrimination to me...

 

[masterorion]

Look at it this way. Let's say there's some discussion in the barracks or whatever and everyone's recounting dating stories. You're a homosexual male sitting there listening to every other guy in the building, in turn, talk about their "hot dates" with random chicks, bragging about their sexual victories.

And you have a flat-out gag order to be the one dude that's sitting there with absolutely nothing you can contribute to the jovial banter, because if you say one word you're discharged.

Definitely doesn't sound like discrimination to me...

i would agree if anything like that happened. but, that just doesnt happen

 

[Raesvelg]

i would agree if anything like that happened. but, that just doesnt happen

Okay, I'm going to flat out call bullshit on that. Put any large group of 18-24 year old males in the same space long enough, and that topic will come up eventually.

Typically quite quickly. Typically involving the females most accessible to said males. Typically involving a lot of bullshit on the part of the participants.

But it will happen. And the homosexual will have to keep his mouth shut or lie to protect his secret.

 

[Halifirien]

Agreed. Masterorion, you must have spent your entire life with cloistered monks who've taken a vow of silence. Your professed experiences don't match up to anything I've ever seen, heard or read when it comes to human interaction. I've never been in a group of people where you don't eventually learn personal stuff. You must've lived an extremely sheltered life if you believe even half of the stuff you've said in this thread so far is accurate.

 

[Linhjah]

I used to date a guy in the army, and I attended a few army functions where he introduced me as his girlfriend, not to mention when we'd hang out and drink with his army buddies.

 

[Miros]

Moved from Obama's Speech thread

 

[masterorion]

Supposedly, you must Have been in the military and not me....hmm. apparently my first hand experience in this is trumped by your college experimce. For the last 5 years+ I've kept my personal lifw secret. This including who and if I'm dating. And I'm not even bound by contract to do it. I don't understand what's so hard about it.

 

[Raesvelg]

Well, I'll break it down for you like this:

Either you have no friends, or you're lying.

Those are your options. Otherwise, the topic will have come up repeatedly in the last 5+ years.

Now, you may choose to decline to discuss it, as is your right. I kept my love life extremely private for over a decade, simply because that's the way I was raised.

But to sit here and say that the topic of conversation has never arisen in 5 years leaves us with the aforementioned two options.

Our hypothetical homosexual soldier could exercise his right to not discuss his love life as well, obviously. But he shouldn't have to.

 

[masterorion]

Well, I'll break it down for you like this:

Either you have no friends, or you're lying.

Those are your options. Otherwise, the topic will have come up repeatedly in the last 5+ years.

Now, you may choose to decline to discuss it, as is your right. I kept my love life extremely private for over a decade, simply because that's the way I was raised.

But to sit here and say that the topic of conversation has never arisen in 5 years leaves us with the aforementioned two options.

Our hypothetical homosexual soldier could exercise his right to not discuss his love life as well, obviously. But he shouldn't have to.

i agree with the last sentance. however, at the same time, that information shouldnt have to be mentioned either. i agree with that either way. but as i said before, in the military, your property of the government. your rights from the civilian sector as far as free speech and whatnot, disappear.

as for why no one knows my information, because i only have two options. a) i have no friends or b) im lying.
i would like to add a third option..... c) i lie about it. and of those 3 answers. my answer is C. at work(i work with all of them or have worked with all of them), there is some personal information that is just general knowledge that has no real meaning, such as: where i live. which, obviously, they do know. hobbies....of course. but when it comes to personal stuff such as sexual escapades, who i may or may not be sleeping with, what i did in the past etc.
stuff that is personal to me, i keep to me. its no ones business. such as sexual pref. its no ones business. perhaps im gay, bi, or straight. no one here will really know. i dont make it easy to find out either. i exaggerate my personal truths if it is something that doesnt need to be known.
so again, it is really that easy to keep sexual pref hidden. however, some people like to express it too much. if that is the case, the military currently, is not their best option. many homosexuals, bisexuals, etc have gone into the military,done all of their time that they enlisted for, got out and were able to keep it hidden.
until they change it, which they will, be discreet about it. i never said gays shouldnt have the right to openly say they are gay, but the fact is, no one in the military is openly asked that question. nor are they allowed to be asked that question. this is also part of the signed policy that is supposed to be followed. and is chargeable under the UCMJ. so, half, there is your "double standard". both parties in the "dont ask dont tell" policy are punishible. whether or not both parties are punished is a whole different ball of wax. which, i will agree, just because i havent personally seen anyone get discharged for being gay/bi, that this may not get pursued so much as far as whomever asked about a members sexual pref.
ref:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don't_ask,_don't_tell

once they do allow gay military members to be open about it, nothing will change as far as what they are allowed to do, how to dress, how to act, etc. they just wont be discharged for admitting they are gay.

p.s- there is a difference between being asked and openly telling. raes, in your scenario about not having anything to contribute in a sexual conversation, ive seen a conversation like that MAYBE one time. but the so called, date stories dont happen. once the weekend hits, people head for the hills. they dont stick around. its not high school or college where your sexual war stories are a mark on the board for you. no one really cares. in college, it might matter.
but if i were to start going on about a guy/chick i had sexual relations with yesterday, would you really even want to know or even want to hear for that matter. i know i dont.
i would use these boards as a good example. how often do people ask or even tell about their excapades here. ill admit i might have seen it before on here. but, does anyone really care to hear about it

 

[Raesvelg]

as for why no one knows my information, because i only have two options. a) i have no friends or b) im lying.
i would like to add a third option..... c) i lie about it.

You misunderstood that point. It's not why nobody knows about your love life, it was a castigation based on the claim that the topic has never come up.

once they do allow gay military members to be open about it, nothing will change as far as what they are allowed to do, how to dress, how to act, etc. they just wont be discharged for admitting they are gay.

Then why have such a ridiculous policy in place to begin with, other than to coddle the feelings of a significant population of homophobes?

Let's be honest, that's what it is.

And as for the rest, I reiterate my point that if you're going to sit there and say that the topic never comes up, particularly in groups of males between the ages of 18 and 24, I'm going to call you a liar. I was a male between the ages of 18 and 24. It's a not-infrequent topic of discussion at that. And it's not a college thing. It's a youth thing. The topic comes up with females too, for that matter.

 

[masterorion]

was[/I] a male between the ages of 18 and 24. It's a not-infrequent topic of discussion at that. And it's not a college thing. It's a youth thing. The topic comes up with females too, for that matter.

that is pretty much the reason for the policy. if you read why clinton put it into place, that would sum it up.

thats great that you "were" a male between those ages at one point. you act as if i wasnt or that i am not. i know what they talk about. i also know that it isnt as frequent of a conversation in the military.
ive been in that age range before, ive been in the military during that age range. i know what topics come up and how often they do or do not come up. perhaps in a unit that doesnt do shit, they have time to sit and shoot the shit, but in an infantry unit, they dont. you can call me a liar all you want, but im the one that has the first hand experience. your basing your statement off of "that cant possiblly be true". as i said, in high school, it might matter, but in the military, there are other things to worry about. people in the military dont sit around during the day just talking. this is the part that im having a hard time explaining to you so you can understand it.
its a 9-5 job with pretty much the same standards as a civilian job. you go into the "shop", office, etc do your work for the day, then go back to the barracks after morning/evening formations, and high taili it outta there before you get volunteered for something. if you dont leave the barracks, you sit and watch tv. if someone knocks on the door, youj DONT answer. its probably the guy on watch needing someone to police the barracks for garbage.
you typically have either 1 or two roomates. perhaps even no roomates. depending on rank. your roomates, depending on who they are, they take off. you usually wont see them till the late eve/early morn. then you do it all again the next day. weekends are pretty much the same, except you wont see anyone till monday
the barracks are seriously a ghost town after work hours.