Monk. Bandwagon Job of 2006

Lavi said:
But the thing is this still proves nothing. I've partied in in rampage parties where I can easily outdamage certain members over all with worse gear. I could have parsed the entire fight and said "Crap gear was greater than elite gear" or whatever I wanted to prove, but the fact of the matter was the other players happened to be dumb. The person used rampage as soon as he had TP (which is usually how a rampage party works) but I waited to use mine. I was smarter just because I could notice when the crab used its stoneskin and chose to wait the two seconds until after it was dispelled to get the most out of my WS. Does this mean the parser is defective? No. It means you need to actually read deep into the information to pick out what is useful or perhaps none of it is useful.

Also what I meant when someone dies or DCs was they would do it mid battle. In those cases the information about average damage percentage would be reduced because they still participated in the fight, but not for the entirety. The parser (as far as I know) won't give that information and it's up to the user to include it.

There is also the debate about gear. A job is only as good as it's gear essentially. Of course a BB toting, SH wearing MNK is gonna outparse a onion sword wield noob, but again does that parser tell us that? No. But where do I draw the line on equality to compare the job? A BB isn't exactly easily obtainable nor is an adaman hauberk. Where is it considered even? Do we compare a rich MNK and a poor WAR? A poor MNK and rich WAR? Or maybe a rich MNK and WAR? Does a rich WAR = a rich MNK? The answer isn't exactly obvious nor is there one perfect answer. A warrior with an adaman hauberk is gonna out parse most MNK, but give the MNK a BB and he'll start to out parse the WAR. All I am suggesting is you cannot suggest MNK > X job because of a parser. You can say MNK with this gear > X job with that gear with proof from a parser.

Okay, let me say this one more time for the record. A disconnect has no effect worth mentioning on a parser. One fight where a guy does 5% of the damage isn't going to affect the other 161 that he did 25% of the damage. And the three fights where everyone else does 7% more damage while waiting for him to reconnect, again, arn't going to have an affect on the 158 other fights. That's the other reason I'm using these parses, they're nice big samples, very low error rate.

Stoneskin bla bla bla... I guess you'll just have to take my word that neither of my parties had members who would WS a Stoneskin. Occasionally they would WS during Obstifucate (sp), but so would I. If anything, in the Ebony Pudding party, I WS'd more stoneskin than they did.

And as for what gear we're comparing... as you put it, elite gear. Besides Tymon and Aladdin, everyone was running around in multiple peices of the best possible gear available. So if you need a specific comparison, my MNK with full merits vs WARs with the best possible gear (Kirin's Osode, Adaman Hauberk, Walhalra Turban, Byakko's Haidate, Rajas Ring, Brutal Earring, Ridill, etc... think I saw a Speed or Swift Belt) and I would assume multiple merits.

I'm not posting these parses because I think "HAHAHA LOOK AT ME PWN THOSE NOOBS IN DAMAGE," I'm thinking "Holy crap how am I doing this good? He's got a freakin' <insert gear here>!"
 
You posted them as proof of MNK > WAR when that's isn't entirely truthful and that is my point. Ok, what you seemingly avoid is the constant reminder that your data isn't necessarily accurate, but you avoid confirming it based on the large pool of data. All I suggest is there is possibilities of errors and each error corrupts the data. To you a single DC or death may not effect the parser stats significantly and while it may be just one or two cases, the effect compounded with others can effect the data significantly. I used those as an example because you may or may not consider them significant individually, but if you consider them all as a whole it does have an effect on the results. What you may have neglected, may be important to the results. I used a death or DC mid fight as an example, but what if those weren't the only errors. What about if the warriors lacked haste. Is that something you noticed? I'm sure you knew when you got hasted, but do you know if they did? Do you know the haste order? Everytime there was down time for whatever reason, when the haste order is restarted, someone is going to miss 20, 40 or 60 seconds of haste compared to other members, did you include that information when posting? Perhaps there was never any downtime for the whole duration of the party, perhaps not. But it does matter. Plus, I can guarantee the warriors also lost a lot of damage by subbing NIN. No, not because of the STR loss based on other subs but because of Utsusemi. Unless the tank was able to keep hate at all times during the fight, I am positive the warriors were expected to keep shadows up so lessen the damage taken, unlike a monk who sits there and takes the damage like a sponge. Mind you, a warrior is a lot more likely to pull hate due to the +enm on almost all WAR gear. So while a MNK has very few interuptions, a warrior probably has to put shadows up quite often.

And the worst offender of corrupt data, you. When I was in grade school we did an experiment, a very basic experiment to prove the most fundamental of laws. I took a test tube and filled it with two unknown reactants, covered the beaker with a rubber balloon and placed a rubber band around balloon and test tube to make sure no gas could escape. The test tube, both reactants, the balloon and rubber band were massed and the data was collected. The test tube was placed over a bunsen burner and the reactants chemically reacted forming a gas in the tube, expanding the balloon. Once the reaction was complete, I removed the test tube from the flame and allowed it to cool. Once it was cool enough to touch, I massed the entire system and compared it to my original data. At first, I didn't know what to expect with the data as I was very young and the whole experiment was unexpected, but once I gained my bearings, I knew what the data should reflect. But and I stress BUT the data didn't reflect what I knew should be true. So I did what any self respecting kid does, change the data so that it does. I knew immediately once we began comparing the data that we were dealing with the Law of Conservation of Mass which states matter can neither be created nor destroyed. I knew the sum of the masses should be exactly the same as the final mass of the entire system, but when I measured the final was 2 grams less. Upon reflection, I could have easily called it experimental error and suggested the gas leaked out of the balloon when the balloon expanded which I am sure was probably the case. My point? You went into your experiment with some expectation of the results and you immediately skewed the results in your favor. I am not accusing you of falsifying results or cheating much like I did, but whether you do it willfully or unintentionally does not matter, you still went into the fights expecting some outcome and it's very possible, your attitude had an effect on the data more than you care to believe.

Did you know that by just observing small particals, you have effect on it? By observing an electron, you affect it's future. By looking directly at it, instead of moving around the atom clockwise, it suddenly moves counter-clockwise (dramatic, but you get the idea). The same goes for your parser. By merely observing and parsing you experience fights you have an effect on the fights. You went into those fights expecting to have see how you compare to a elite warrior and you got the data you wanted. But is it good data? I am going to assume you went into those fights trying your hardest to get the most damage while those other warriors did... what? Did they even know you parsed it? Did you inform everyone in the parties to try their hardest to do the maximum damage? Probably not. So while it's possible you tried your hardest, they may have not. You could have been playing your A-game while they were sitting afk pressing the WS macro every 60 seconds meanwhile their real attention was on Grand Theft Auto, the next screen over. But did you include that information? Does this information matter? Again, all I am saying is your data is just data. YOu can make anything you want from it. You can say your gear is greater than warrior gear. You can say MNK > WAR, but the truth of the matter is, it doesn't say very much besides your damage was greater during that one particular experience party.

Skaw said:
What WSM probably doesn't realize, is that while Ridill might not be commonly dropped, you don't need to tackle all 3 kings to do it. Also consider that about once every 8 days, theres a chance for Ridill to not drop at all. As opposed to about once every 8 days, a complete black belt set is around. Notice: Not necessarily a complete black belt. Just a complete set.

Also I'm not saying that ones more rare than the other, just putting up the chance for either to be obtained.

There is a change a BB item can drop every Fafnir, Adamantoise, and Behemoth spawn plus a guaranteed drop every 8 days with KB, Aspid and Nidhogg. PLus the 3 items needed to obtain the BB drop from a KS99 fight. With Ridill, it's just a chance to drop 7/8 days. No offense, but the way you stated it makes it sound like the BB is harder to get, when it may very well not be. Then again it could be.
 
Heisenberg doesn't apply here. Same with your data falsification story, unless Ikari was running a parser to spefically show that he was beating a ridil war, which even then the data doesn't support. If he's running the parser to see how he stands up to a ridil war, expecting to be beaten, then there's no reason to falsify data other than to lower his own damage to make the war win which obviously isn't the case.

I can understand expressing concern that the data isn't 100% accurate, but you're basically spouting off WSM's line, albeit yours actually has some thought behind it and it's intelligible. The only thing is, you're basically assuming the parser is completely wrong, rather than an extremely small margin of error that occurs from all of the stuff that you're listing given such a large sample.

As to "only ikari was actually trying to do good damage," that's just total bullshit. No one goes into a party, especially not a cannon thinking that they'll just do mediocre damage. The members there would have been trying to do as much damage as they could to maximize the amount of exp they get.
 
Bajaratt said:
Heisenberg doesn't apply here. Same with your data falsification story, unless Ikari was running a parser to spefically show that he was beating a ridil war, which even then the data doesn't support. If he's running the parser to see how he stands up to a ridil war, expecting to be beaten, then there's no reason to falsify data other than to lower his own damage to make the war win which obviously isn't the case.

I can understand expressing concern that the data isn't 100% accurate, but you're basically spouting off WSM's line, albeit yours actually has some thought behind it and it's intelligible. The only thing is, you're basically assuming the parser is completely wrong, rather than an extremely small margin of error that occurs from all of the stuff that you're listing given such a large sample.

As to "only ikari was actually trying to do good damage," that's just total bullshit. No one goes into a party, especially not a cannon thinking that they'll just do mediocre damage. The members there would have been trying to do as much damage as they could to maximize the amount of exp they get.

Not all people give 100% all the time. Having spent countless hours trying to merit makes exp parties very tiresome and boring whether it's a cannon or not. Some people go into it and pay little to no attention and I can attest to this. I've been doing rampage parties since I got the WS and I've seen members go afk mid fights several times and it's not like it's extremely exciting all the time. Mindlessly killing crabs, crawlers, weapons, or whatever you want gets boring after the 1000th time. To Ikari it might have been a challenge to see how he compared, but again, if the other members had no knowledge or even didn't care to bother maximizing damage, the validity of the parser is entirely questionable. Can you say with pure certainty that this is proof positive? I bet you can't. A parser is only as good as the person parsing it.

I don't have anything against Mai Ikari nor do I know the real answer behind which does more damage, WAR or MNK. My only axe to grind it is that while one parser shows MNK > WAR, I am sure I can find as many that have the exact opposite. I don't consider Mai's parser innacurate so much as all parsers innacurate or more to the point, the person parsing them as innacurate. The parser will give all the data I needed to make an observation, but it's up to the user to make sense of it.

I should mention, the Heisenberg principle does matter. Mai knew he was parsing the data, while it is not clear whether everyone else did. His actions are based upon him knowing that he is being recorded while the other members are just there for experience and quite possible could just be warm bodies to fill a space. If I played a game with a professional sports player and secretly taped it, do you think the player is going to A) wipe the floor with me because he wants to outshine me or B) have a nice friendly game? What if I told him I recorded the whole thing and planned on spreading it out to the press? While, I am sure it's not guaranteed that the player didn't try his hardest when he didn't know he was being recorded, I am also not guaranteed he did. However, I am certain that if he did inform him of my intentions to record the game, he would also play his hardest. Same thing with the parser. If Mai didn't actively tell anyone he intended to parse and eventual post this info, then the others are at a certain disadvantage.
 
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Lavi said:
There is a change a BB item can drop every Fafnir, Adamantoise, and Behemoth spawn plus a guaranteed drop every 8 days with KB, Aspid and Nidhogg. PLus the 3 items needed to obtain the BB drop from a KS99 fight. With Ridill, it's just a chance to drop 7/8 days. No offense, but the way you stated it makes it sound like the BB is harder to get, when it may very well not be. Then again it could be.


10% shot off NQ kings. The amount of items entering the game from the Kings is more frequent. You might as well have not mentioned the fact that they do drop from them at all.

And as stated before, Kings pop more often than the amount of seals you can gather for KS99's. ALSO, the KS99's are harder and not 100%. So yeah, I'd say a Black Belt is definantly harder to get, but not necessarily more common to get. Think of what you have to do to get a Black Belt compared to getting a Ridill. Ridill drops from 1 21-24 hour mob, Black Belt not only requires 3, but the brown belt quest to have been completed, so you might as well say 4 21-24 hour mobs.

Not to mention, while Fafnir and Nidhogg are harder than Adamantoise and Aspidochelone, you can't exactly .dat trick and spam provoke at Adamantoise safely like you can with those two. So claiming is a lot trickier.
 
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Alright... Seems I didn't explain the entirity of the parse. #1, there was a single disconnect, and no deaths. He was gone for 3 battles. #2, there were no disconnects or deaths. In #1, haste was incredibly inconsistant, if there at all, because the only healer was stuck healing me from various ow-pain-multihit-WS In #2, haste never went down on the three of us, ever. I was running Tparty, so I saw that everyone was using TP rather consistantly at 100-120%. You don't get chain #160 with 3 out of 4 melees not paying attention. You get dead BRDs.

Lavi said:
Plus, I can guarantee the warriors also lost a lot of damage by subbing NIN. No, not because of the STR loss based on other subs but because of Utsusemi. Unless the tank was able to keep hate at all times during the fight, I am positive the warriors were expected to keep shadows up so lessen the damage taken, unlike a monk who sits there and takes the damage like a sponge.

Mostly incorrect. The WARs did not lose damage due to keeping utsusemi up, because hate was pretty evenly shared, so all experienced the same loss in damage. I lost damage due to leaving berserk off for the latter part of the party just so I wouldn't pull hate.

Lavi said:
whether you do it willfully or unintentionally does not matter, you still went into the fights expecting some outcome and it's very possible, your attitude had an effect on the data more than you care to believe.

Quite frankly, I never intended to post the data, and I don't try any harder because of it. I run it as a personal curiosity, to see how I compare. I don't expect any particular outcome, but I'm rather used to seeing myself a few percent higher than the rest of the party. I do not try any harder with the parser than I did without it, partly because the parser is always running, it starts with my computer, there is no such situation with me as "the parser wasn't running." As I said, it was more a case of "Holy shit that guy had a Ridill and I was how close to him?" than "Okay, Ridill WAR in the party, gotta try extra hard!"


Your argument has some perfectly good general points, a lot better than WSM's lolparser attitude. But it's still going off in the wrong direction.

I never intended this to be parsers showing OMGMNKISTEHUBER... they were posted to show that a couple basic points. Admitedly, they came out that way, mostly my fault from the way I'm trying to make those two points obvious. But those are still the two points. Lemme restate them, it's been a few pages since they've been seen.

A: Adaberk/Ridill are not god, though they're amazingly powerful.

B: Monks do not hit like sissies, that's one of the most ignorant things ever said by WSM.

C: If MNK can get that high with a Brown Belt, imagine adding another 4% damage onto those totals (9%, if you wanna be accurate, since I don't have Byakko's Haidate, either). If you still say Black Belt (or in WSM's case, MNK in general) is worthless, you are a fool and a moron.
 
I'm sorry if I am bit skeptical, but I was always told to see the truth with my own eyes and take everything with a grain of salt. Even if you were to swear on it and give me your word that you tried no harder whether you have the parser on or off, I still can't believe you. I can't believe you for the same reason I don't believe men and women are treated equally (I've had a professor tell my class, female students will recieve better grades than male students). You may not admit it and you may not realize it, but just doing it affects the way you play. The professor in class admitted that female students would recieve better grades, but he didn't do so intentionally, but he did so because was a male professor and he had daughters or so he said. I'd be inclined to believe you didn't intend to act differently when you parse your data, but you still do. If I was to parse my data, I guarantee you I would try my best to maximize my damage, lessen my afks, and whatever else I could do to make my stats that much better. If I'd do it, I really don't see how anyone else would be different.

And the truth of the matter is I can say with fair certainty I am correct in believing this is truth. Why? Because you took the effort to parse your data. The entire point of parsing is to see how you stand up against other party members and you don't see how you stand up against another member by playing a weak game, do you? No you play your best game and unless everyone else plays their A-game, you are just fooling yourself with bad data.

Now, again, I don't deny the validity of your parser or it's accuracy, but I do not stand by it as being entirely accurate either. The fact of the matter is I will never know. The same goes for when I parse myself. I don't know if the people I am playing with played to the best of their abilities while I know I am playing my best even if I don't intend to.

Edit: I do agree with you three points. Adaman Hauberk and Ridill are amazing and probably the best thing for warriors/drks ever. MNKs are great DDs and I never disagreed. I merely do not accept your parser as fact. And lastly BB > all. This is a fact and until something else gives me 13% haste, I don't see it ever changing.
 
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Lavi said:
If I was to parse my data, I guarantee you I would try my best to maximize my damage, lessen my afks, and whatever else I could do to make my stats that much better. If I'd do it, I really don't see how anyone else would be different. ... The entire point of parsing is to see how you stand up against other party members and you don't see how you stand up against another member by playing a weak game, do you? No you play your best game and unless everyone else plays their A-game, you are just fooling yourself with bad data.

And that's why I don't tell people I'm parsing, because it ruins the sample when they start saving WS so that they can get maximum damage, not recasting utsusemi, in general, not good. I know that my AFK's and whatever else won't have a real affect on my damage, so I don't make any special effort because I'm parsing. I make a special effort because that's my goddamn job. See, there's a difference between player attitude, and skewed results. This is a matter of player attitude. The WAR who's sitting there 90% AFK is going to parse bad and not contribute to his party. The WAR who's trying hard, will contribute. I consider a lazy player to be perfectly valid data, because they're having a measurable effect on the exp the party pulls in. (And if they don't, why is there a member in that slot?)

Those points were directed more at WSM than you. It's just that it's been a while since he's seen them, he might need a refresher before he can reply.
 
Mai Ikari said:
And that's why I don't tell people I'm parsing, because it ruins the sample when they start saving WS so that they can get maximum damage, not recasting utsusemi, in general, not good. I know that my AFK's and whatever else won't have a real affect on my damage, so I don't make any special effort because I'm parsing. I make a special effort because that's my goddamn job. See, there's a difference between player attitude, and skewed results. This is a matter of player attitude. The WAR who's sitting there 90% AFK is going to parse bad and not contribute to his party. The WAR who's trying hard, will contribute. I consider a lazy player to be perfectly valid data, because they're having a measurable effect on the exp the party pulls in. (And if they don't, why is there a member in that slot?)

Those points were directed more at WSM than you. It's just that it's been a while since he's seen them, he might need a refresher before he can reply.
You were in bed with me thats why you know i need a refesher right? Keke.I've been exp-ing on n off in TOAU areas ever since the expansion came.What on earth makes you think that i would believe your parser when i'm not even there? .And Blackbelt's items drop from a KSNM 99 they are 100 percent drop rate from kings and they have a chance to drop from normal HNMs.And its a mnk ONry item.Reason there are more NAs with blackbelts than there are with ridills.Trust me if i was a monk i'd know how to get my belt in a matter of 3 months max.Ridill on the other hand drops from one MOb at a 1/40 or lower/higher drop rate.Ridill can be used by more than one job and you just can't get it anywhere else.Hence,its harder to acquire
 
just out of curiousitiy .. how many items are needed for the Black belt?

and how many sources can those items be obtained?

how many items are required for the Ridlil ? Is it just one mob to camp and claim, like the old emp. hairpin or the old pcc ?

I'm just curious..
 
Ridill is dropped from only Fafnir and is a very rare drop, said to be 5% or so.

Black belt is obtained by getting 3 different items that drop from Aspidochelone, Nidhogg, and King Behemoth with a 100% drop rate, and also drop from the lesser version of those 3 Kings with a drop rate of about 15%, and they can also be obtained from the KS99 versions of the Kings with a drop rate of somethin slightly better than NQ Kings.
 
_Neosquall_ said:
Ridill is dropped from only Fafnir and is a very rare drop, said to be 5% or so.

Black belt is obtained by getting 3 different items that drop from Aspidochelone, Nidhogg, and King Behemoth with a 100% drop rate, and also drop from the lesser version of those 3 Kings with a drop rate of about 15%, and they can also be obtained from the KS99 versions of the Kings with a drop rate of somethin slightly better than NQ Kings.

So, Ridill is dropped by a single mob that is regularly camped by HNM shells...

and the black belt requires someone to get 3 very difficult fights..

for someone that has no interest in joining an HNM shell.. I see the Ridill being easier.

also.. the Ridill is a weapon, where the Black belt is a waist armor piece.. I don't see the comparison.

Ridill.JPG


Black-Belt.jpg



and what the hell does this have to do with the original post?

talk about derailing.. sheesh.
 
I've always loved Mnk, especially in pty's post lv 50 (no real reason just started appreciating them more) and it was always on my list of top 5 jobs.

However I wanted Pld most, and then got tired of dd and tank so went to mage, back to tank, and now with the new jobs out and everyone leveling them it seems the best time to XP any lower level jobs you might wish too.
 
Yeah, I've always loved Monk too. It was the first job I took to 30 on this character. I was hoping to get back into it after Dragoon, but I didn't want to have to wait a long time for invites again so I took the easy route and went Bard. I love DoT jobs and Monk is the King. Seems people finally started to shy away from those ridiculous one hit wonders and go for real damage.
 
Ridil is far from easier. There are numerous people who have gotten Black Belt and aren't in Kaizen, compared to the ZERO NA's that have a Ridill (Not including the ones obtained from Kaizen).
 
Darthyoda said:
So, Ridill is dropped by a single mob that is regularly camped by HNM shells...

and the black belt requires someone to get 3 very difficult fights..

for someone that has no interest in joining an HNM shell.. I see the Ridill being easier.


Please tell me you're joking. =P If you really wanted, you can get all 3 Blackbelt items in a day. You'd be VERY lucky to see a Ridill in a week...and considering how many camp, probably better off saying "few months".

*edit* Wait wait wait, easier if you're not joining a HNM shell to boot? Good luck getting that alliance of buddies together that'd be willing to pass one if it dropped.
 
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_Neosquall_ said:
Ridil is far from easier. There are numerous people who have gotten Black Belt and aren't in Kaizen, compared to the ZERO NA's that have a Ridill (Not including the ones obtained from Kaizen).
there is more then 2 Na at least with ridill lol seen them
 
_Neosquall_ said:
Ridil is far from easier. There are numerous people who have gotten Black Belt and aren't in Kaizen, compared to the ZERO NA's that have a Ridill (Not including the ones obtained from Kaizen).

I think that's debatable. 1/20 verus guaranteed drop in least 8 days plus ~1/6 on the rest of the days. Although the BB needs 3 items to obtain (plus you have to have done the purple and brown belt quests plus turn in the brown belt to obtain the BB), the possibility for there being more in circulation is greater. Add that to the KS99 and the possibility is pretty much endless... unless of course the BLM manaburn parties decide they need a paper weights in their MH.
 
these things go in cycle there was a big rdm crazy couple months ago as well:wacko: Monks just happen to be the job of the quarter. Next quarter will be blu. Personaly i hate mnk it be the last job id lvl next to blu.
 
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