mystic wonders on the side of my screen

[Bigboy]

A study of 450 individuals found that people who smoke marijuana frequently but do not smoke tobacco have more health problems and miss more days of work than nonsmokers8. Many of the extra sick days among the marijuana smokers in the study were for respiratory illnesses.

Even infrequent abuse can cause burning and stinging of the mouth and throat, often accompanied by a heavy cough. Someone who smokes marijuana regularly may have many of the same respiratory problems that tobacco smokers do, such as daily cough and phlegm production, more frequent acute chest illness, a heightened risk of lung infections, and a greater tendency to obstructed airways9. Smoking marijuana possibly increases the likelihood of developing cancer of the head or neck. A study comparing 173 cancer patients and 176 healthy individuals produced evidence that marijuana smoking doubled or tripled the risk of these cancers10.

Marijuana abuse also has the potential to promote cancer of the lungs and other parts of the respiratory tract because it contains irritants and carcinogens9,11. In fact, marijuana smoke contains 50 to 70 percent more carcinogenic hydrocarbons than does tobacco smoke12. It also induces high levels of an enzyme that converts certain hydrocarbons into their carcinogenic form—levels that may accelerate the changes that ultimately produce malignant cells13. Marijuana users usually inhale more deeply and hold their breath longer than tobacco smokers do, which increases the lungs' exposure to carcinogenic smoke. These facts suggest that, puff for puff, smoking marijuana may be more harmful to the lungs than smoking tobacco.

8 Polen MR, Sidney S, Tekawa IS, et al. Health care use by frequent marijuana smokers who do not smoke tobacco. West J Med 158(6):596–601, 1993.

9 Tashkin DP. Pulmonary complications of smoked substance abuse. West J Med 152(5):525–530, 1990.

10 Zhang ZF, Morgenstern H, Spitz MR, et al. Marijuana use and increased risk of squamous cell carcinoma of the head and neck. Cancer Epidemiology, Biomarkers & Prevention 8(12):1071–1078, 1999.

11 Sridhar KS, Raub WA, Weatherby, NL Jr., et al. Possible role of marijuana smoking as a carcinogen in the development of lung cancer at a young age. Journal of Psychoactive Drugs 26(3):285–288, 1994.

12 Hoffman D, Brunnemann KD, Gori GB, et al. On the carcinogenicity of marijuana smoke. In: VC Runeckles, ed, Recent Advances in Phytochemistry. New York. Plenum, 1975.

13 Cohen S. Adverse effects of marijuana: Selected issues. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences 362:119–124, 1981.

The bolded is very important to keep in mind when comparing cigs to pot. While if smoked in the same manner, pot wouldn't be as harmful, it generally isn't, since that would be wastefull.

Food for thought. This was from the middle of a report, only reason I just grabbd this section is because it focused on the lungs while alot of the rest of the report is based on addiction and misc. body affects. For instance you are 3-4 times more likely to have a heart attack in the first hour after getting high than otherwise, but tobacco isn't much better. The key difference is that your state of mind while smoking a cig seems to be more relaxed (probably because you aren't expecting anything and you aren't doing anything that could potentially get you in trouble). These are just some general numbers from various sources compiled into 1 report. As you can tell from the foot notes not all the data is incredibly recent, but the general makeup of pot hasn't changed much either.

It is assumed that when comparing pot to tabbacco that both are being used the same way. As in pipe to pipe, bong to bong, hooka to hooka, joint to cig, etc.

Edit: to add italics to foot note denotations

 

[Miruyasha]

My appologies for not looking up my information again. I had some RL issues that took precidence over why I disagree with marijuana useage. I haven't READ papers, I've written them. I've looked at both sides of the argument, from those that want it legalized to those that want it kept illegal. Bigboy made a good point, in that people smoke pot differently then they would cigs by inhaling deeper and longer.

I've given up on trying to get people I know to quit because their either A) stubborn or B) stoned at the time. Either way, the message doesn't get across. I honestly don't care if other people smoke pot for the same reasons I don't care if people smoke cigs. They know both are bad for them and yet they do it anyway. I would term that as ignorance; they're ignoring the fact that what their doing is bad for them so that they can continue to do it w/o feeling guilty.

BTW, pot IS worse then cigs because THC is MUCH more potent then cigarette chemicals. As mentioned before, THC is a psychoactive drug. Any substance that alters your brains chemical balance or effects the way it functions is terribly bad for you. For someone who has all the answers to why I'm wrong, that point seems to have slipped by you. I'm not wrong, pots bad for you and you shouldn't do it. But am I going to /wrists because someone does? No.

 

[RoM]

I find it hard to believe that based on the parameters of the statement made an argument can be made. While BB puts the correct spin on it the original post i quoted was entirely without context of the medical aspect. I also find it hard to believe that pure pot without additives or any mishaps in the growing soil is more detrimental to your health then cigarettes, a product tailor made to get you hooked and kill you since they hit the market place.

While we're on the subject of cigarettes to pot i'd challenge you to provide numbers that support the statement that habitual marijuana smokers manage to smoke as much as habitual cigarette smokers, specificly because the averages don't work that way.

My personal advice is if you're worried about cancer give up coffee and move in to a hamster ball.

 

[RoM]

My appologies for not looking up my information again. I had some RL issues that took precidence over why I disagree with marijuana useage. I haven't READ papers, I've written them. I've looked at both sides of the argument, from those that want it legalized to those that want it kept illegal. Bigboy made a good point, in that people smoke pot differently then they would cigs by inhaling deeper and longer.

I've given up on trying to get people I know to quit because their either A) stubborn or B) stoned at the time. Either way, the message doesn't get across. I honestly don't care if other people smoke pot for the same reasons I don't care if people smoke cigs. They know both are bad for them and yet they do it anyway. I would term that as ignorance; they're ignoring the fact that what their doing is bad for them so that they can continue to do it w/o feeling guilty.

BTW, pot IS worse then cigs because THC is MUCH more potent then cigarette chemicals. As mentioned before, THC is a psychoactive drug. Any substance that alters your brains chemical balance or effects the way it functions is terribly bad for you. For someone who has all the answers to why I'm wrong, that point seems to have slipped by you. I'm not wrong, pots bad for you and you shouldn't do it. But am I going to /wrists because someone does? No.

http://www.quit-smoking-stop.com/harmful-chemicals-in-cigarettes.html

VS

THC

Surely you jest.

I'd say we're done here, good luck on those papers.

 

[Miruyasha]

I find it hard to believe that based on the parameters of the statement made an argument can be made. While BB puts the correct spin on it the original post i quoted was entirely without context of the medical aspect. I also find it hard to believe that pure pot without additives or any mishaps in the growing soil is more detrimental to your health then cigarettes, a product tailor made to get you hooked and kill you since they hit the market place.

While we're on the subject of cigarettes to pot i'd challenge you to provide numbers that support the statement that habitual marijuana smokers manage to smoke as much as habitual cigarette smokers, specificly because the averages don't work that way.

My personal advice is if you're worried about cancer give up coffee and move in to a hamster ball.

Actually, pot wasn't always as bad. Its MUCH more potent now then it was in the 70's during the counter-culture movements. There aren't any additives to the soil or anything, plants evolve the same that animals do, and the pot plant has evolved a much more potent THC content then it had before. It is just as bad as cigs because of the whole smoke inhilation and what not, but since there are more chemicals in pot then tobacco, there's more to circulate through your blood. It really depends on your viewpoint, really. I view them as more dangerous, if not as dangerous, because there are more chemicals in pot then tobacco. If you don't...hey, its not going in my lungs. And I know people who smoke pot and cigs smoke cigs more because they're legal, whereas pot isn't, as it should be.

I give a shit about cancer, unless someone has it. Then its not cool. Caffene is a stimulant, something I know quite well, considering I take a form of methamphetamine on a daily basis.

Again, I appologize for my lack of information regarding this topic, but I'm tired, stressed, and worried because of RL stuff. So I'm not gonna be jumping up to post some info on it. Sorry

 

[Bigboy]

I find it hard to believe that based on the parameters of the statement made an argument can be made. While BB puts the correct spin on it the original post i quoted was entirely without context of the medical aspect. I also find it hard to believe that pure pot without additives or any mishaps in the growing soil is more detrimental to your health then cigarettes, a product tailor made to get you hooked and kill you since they hit the market place.

While we're on the subject of cigarettes to pot i'd challenge you to provide numbers that support the statement that habitual marijuana smokers manage to smoke as much as habitual cigarette smokers, specificly because the averages don't work that way.

My personal advice is if you're worried about cancer give up coffee and move in to a hamster ball.

I agree with everything but the bolded. We both know thats not true. It was put on the marketplace for alot of the same reasons pot was and is. It's just another luxery item, which people used to even think was healthy for a while. The same can be said for cocaine. Most of these things were introduced innocently enough. Especially when you consider that when it first became popular, everyone was growing their own. It was then made a money maker, like sugar, corn, and other products from the americas.

As far as quantities go with cig vs. pot, you are absolutely right, but smokers affect much less of their lungs and the damage is mostly surface based since a smokers breath is typically much much more shallow than even yoour average non-smoker's breathing, where as a pot smoker expands their lungs to maximum coating the entire surface, then allowing them to collapse back to normal size causing a higher density it crack like fissures created in the lining of the lungs. This can cause infections similar to a toacco smoker, but occassionally worse, and it happens more frequently.

Both are bad for you, and I've done both, but I only still smoke cigs. I have an addictive personality, so I know I would be stoned every waking moment if I was still smoking today.

It is just as bad as cigs because of the whole smoke inhilation and what not, but since there are more chemicals in pot then tobacco, there's more to circulate through your blood.

This is not entirely true, but it is greatly dependant on wether you roll your own, brand type, etc. Over the counter, filtered cigs tend to contain a pretty large amount of chemicals in America, more than most other countries, because we require that certain preservatives be present that other countries don't. Menthols and Cloves are also really high on the list. While I would say total volume of chemicals is the same in either case, the actually # of chemicals present in a cig are far greater, and it's mostely because our government demands we put them there. Rollies, on the other hand are about as pure (typically) as a hydroponically farmed pot plant.

As far as pot potentcy goes, it is much much higher than it was 10-15 years ago, and it is grown to be that way, because everyone is looking for the better high, and telling someone you have something you can practically see crystalization on vs. some bammer shit they can get off a bum in the city, brings the buyer back.

Edit: added Miruyasha quot and below

 

[RoM]

truth is pot contains 420 seperate chemicals 60 of which are what are cosnidered 'canabanoids'. Delta 9 has been the only one given much thought or research. There's not enough conclusive evidence or any supporting information for the statement you made and i simply wanted to know what you based it on.

Since we touched on it coffee has no less then 60 cancer causing agents in it. I never touch the stuff.

 

[Miruyasha]

http://www.quit-smoking-stop.com/harmful-chemicals-in-cigarettes.html

VS

THC

Surely you jest.

I'd say we're done here, good luck on those papers.

To the contrary, you must be joking if you think that THC is the only chemical in marijuana to be looked at here. If you wanna dig around on the internet for the chemicals found in marijuana, be my guest. I don't feel the need to prove myself, to be honest, regardless of what I've said before. It stands, without question, that pot is bad for you for a number of reasons. Maybe I'll look up the chemicals before I go to work.

 

[Miruyasha]

truth is pot contains 420 seperate chemicals 60 of which are what are cosnidered 'canabanoids'. Delta 9 has been the only one given much thought or research. There's not enough conclusive evidence or any supporting information for the statement you made and i simply wanted to know what you based it on.

Since we touched on it coffee has no less then 60 cancer causing agents in it. I never touch the stuff.

I based it on several books from my college's library, as well as published articles pertaining to the subject. If I hadn't done a clean sweep of my hard drive recently, I'd still have all my works cited stuff so that I could look it up again. I didn't just pull stuff outta my ass, its what I got from the material I was reading to do research.

Plus coffee is bitter, so I hate it. Really anything that makes you feel good nowadays is bad for you in someway...except for sex.

 

[Bigboy]

Plus coffee is bitter, so I hate it.

Since we touched on it coffee has no less then 60 cancer causing agents in it. I never touch the stuff.

Heathens!

 

[RoM]

http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/papers/manuscripts/_895.html

There is no valid data that indicates whether marijuana causes or worsens other mental illness.

Similarly, no research suggests that permanent harmful effects result in the cardiovascular system.

There is no reliable data to demonstrate that the effects of marijuana smoke on the respiratory system are hazardous either. However, recent studies indicate that a marijuana joint contains 50% more cancer causing hydrocarbons than a tobacco cigarette.

You could almost have me on that last point if it weren't for the fact that cigarette smokers statisticly smoke more often because the product is designed in such a way as to make it addictive. I will concede that if you were to smoke as much pot as the average cigarette smoker throws down in a day you would definately be doing more damage to your system however the evidence to support this is still somewhat inconclusive.

This point is also made moot by the first sentence with regards to this argument.

Human studies have demonstrated mild suppressive effects on the immune system due to the chronic use of marijuana. Again, no strong connection has been determined.

i could go on and on..

http://books.nap.edu/html/marimed/

http://www.newstarget.com/006870.html

http://www.drugtext.org/sub/marmyt1.html

Anyway, as far as proving yourself goes don't go getting all dramatic on me. When someone makes me curious i question them, simple as that.

And you!

All aboard! The train to "Flameboard" will be arriving in 1 hour.

I told ex that'd prolly be where it went as soon as i responded. I'm no one trick pony.

 

[Miruyasha]

I'm not getting dramatic on ya. To be honest, theres equally good arguments on both sides of the issue here. It really just comes down to who you choose to believe. I think the first point is sorta a "der" point, mental illness would be caused by it unless you did so much that your brain was overpowered by it. The second point, eh, I've read information that would suggest otherwise. Again, there is no right or wrong here, aside from, of course, the negative effects it has on you. I do have information, I'm just not going to look it up at 4:15 in the morning, lol.

 

[Bigboy]

http://sulcus.berkeley.edu/mcb/165_001/papers/manuscripts/_895.html

There is no valid data that indicates whether marijuana causes or worsens other mental illness.

Similarly, no research suggests that permanent harmful effects result in the cardiovascular system.

There is no reliable data to demonstrate that the effects of marijuana smoke on the respiratory system are hazardous either. However, recent studies indicate that a marijuana joint contains 50% more cancer causing hydrocarbons than a tobacco cigarette.

You could almost have me on that last point if it weren't for the fact that cigarette smokers statisticly smoke more often because the product is designed in such a way as to make it addictive. I will concede that if you were to smoke as much pot as the average cigarette smoker throws down in a day you would definately be doing more damage to your system however the evidence to support this is still somewhat inconclusive.

This point is also made moot by the first sentence with regards to this argument.

Human studies have demonstrated mild suppressive effects on the immune system due to the chronic use of marijuana. Again, no strong connection has been determined.

i could go on and on..

http://books.nap.edu/html/marimed/

http://www.newstarget.com/006870.html

http://www.drugtext.org/sub/marmyt1.html

Anyway, as far as proving yourself goes don't go getting all dramatic on me. When someone makes me curious i question them, simple as that.

Deffinately. I understand the sentiment. I got sucked in a tad myself because there was no concrete evidence on either side, and that really is because people who do these studies recieve grants so they can support an already determined conclution. And by the age a person is educated enough to even understand the tests and results, with the background in schooling to be allowed to perform them, they already have firm opinions reguarding their subject matter.

Most anti-cig material is taken from the ember side and focuses on 2nd hand smoke and the chemicals released in the air, and almost never ever differentiates between brands. Those are few and far between. The same is done for pot. Often numbers are taken from pot in its static plant state when supporting its use, and taken from ember end when being attacked. It's all part of the game these companies play.

Everything like this should always be viewed with a hyper critical eye. I figured I would toss up some material since it was being asked for though. XD

 

[RoM]

Agreed, i'm having a rough time of it at this hour while healing a dungeon on WoW myself. I'd be more than happy to read it. While it may not sway me not to use i do enjoy being well informed.

Didn't mean any offense by 'dont' get all dramatic' but i have that effect on people.

 

[Bigboy]

Agreed, i'm having a rough time of it at this hour while healing a dungeon on WoW myself. I'd be more than happy to read it. While it may not sway me not to use i do enjoy being well informed.

Didn't mean any offense by 'dont' get all dramatic' but i have that effect on people.

I'll be honest. I knew this stuff before I quit smoking, and it didn't really influence the decision nearly as much as being able to keep a $20 in my pocket longer than a day.

I spent far more money on pot when I was smoking than I did on cigs. Both overlapped and I smoked like a chimney when high. If you buy a gram ever 4 days, thats equal to the cost of smokes, but even that number is often off since Parliments often come in deals with buy 1 get 1, or buy 2 get 1, so it's more like only buying a gram a week would put most on par with cigs. When I bought cartons from the swiss online, it would cost me $15.00 a carton, which meant a gram every 2 weeks. As I got more savvy with my tabacco purchases, pot really started to loose it's appeal and became a huge money sink. I worked it out that I was spending less than $600 dollars a year to smoke, a full pack a day, every day. That was about $1000.00 less than I spent on coffee anually (I actually spent more than that on coffee, but that was how much was spent with my credit card at my coffee shop).

If I bought a gram of pot every other day, for $20.00 (cost when I smoked it) I would spend $600.00 in 2 months(60 days). If I did that all year, it would cost me $3650.00 which was more than my cigs and coffee combined.

The choice was obvious for me, but it was more a case of which I valued more. Now that I've had a family member killed by someone driving carelessly stoned, I couldn't go back to it without feeling like I'm betraying their memory. But I see little problem with the drug in moderation. It's never the responsible people you hear the stories about though, just because a story about a guy sitting on a couch watching TV isn't interresting or thought provoking.

 

[RoM]

Not only would i kill to be able to afford $20/gram pot i'd kill to be able to find it down here.

I'm currently attempting to steady myself to quit cigarettes. It's noticably screwing up my throat every time i smoke now, i don't like it. Sucks though, even though i know all this bad crap about it, spend all the money for em, and am starting to feel the effects i still find it hard to get myself out of the habit.

I imagine when i finally grow out of the dope it won't be such a big deal. It's really not that bad these days when i can't find it for stretches. Smokes on the other hand i'm a complete asshole without. ><

 

[Bigboy]

Not only would i kill to be able to afford $20/gram pot i'd kill to be able to find it down here.

I'm currently attempting to steady myself to quit cigarettes. It's noticably screwing up my throat every time i smoke now, i don't like it. Sucks though, even though i know all this bad crap about it, spend all the money for em, and am starting to feel the effects i still find it hard to get myself out of the habit.

I imagine when i finally grow out of the dope it won't be such a big deal. It's really not that bad these days when i can't find it for stretches. Smokes on the other hand i'm a complete asshole without. ><

Yeah I had next to no cravings for pot when I stopped, but I'm a grumpy sonavabitch without cofee or cigs. The addiction level of caffine and nicotine are beyond compare to all but the hardest of drugs. ; ;

On the plus side, it's also a good excuse to get away from my many monitors at work that I stare at much longer than is probably good for my eyes. And it is really easy to strike up conversation with other smokers, so I never find myself bored, even when sitting on my butt for hours at the local coffee shop.

When I started smoking, I did it for the silliest reason: I was curious if the guy behind the counter would sell to a minor and if my grandparents could tell if I smoked when the house had pipe smoke all throughout it. Turns out, 7-11* does sell to minors (so long as they haven't been busted for it in the past week).

When I started smoking pot, I actually had my intrest peaked by the D.A.R.E. program and had friends that did it and wanted to smoke with me. I'd say the peer presure for pot is much higher now than it is for cigs, sinse cigs have such a stigma to them.

*7-11 = ABC store to some of you east coasters.

 

[Elpon]

The only reason they say it's more potent now than it was in the 70s is because people smoke the buds now instead of just the leaves @.@
It's a misleading statement.

 

[CmdrFly]

Not only would i kill to be able to afford $20/gram pot i'd kill to be able to find it down here.

I wish pot was a form of currency, Canada's "dollar" would be astronomical. $10/g is the going rate here, $30/8th, $50/qtr, $90/half, $150/oz (this is all in CDN funds). What are comparative prices in the states?

 

[Miruyasha]

I know you didn't mean any offense, hence why I didn't take any. BB made an excellent point, which is that people that do most studies for things like this are paid to prove a predetermined opinion. Alot of information is misleading in and of itself, simply because of the nature in which it was researched. Your going to get handed money to "prove" something, the results of which may or may not be true. As I said before, its really just about what information you choose to believe.

Something I read on here (and have told my smoking friends) that has worked wonders for trying to quit smoking is to do it gradually. The reason people who quit cold turkey end up relapsing is because its like having your eyes get adjusted to a dark room, then turning a bright light on. Its like "ah, turn it off!" because your body is suddenly thrust into a change. Long story short, smoke cigs less and less each day. Allow your body to get used to less and less nicotine, and eventually you'll find yourself craving less and less of it. It may (and in most cases will) take a while, but consider the alternative.

As for pot, I'm not trying to tell you how to live your life. Your a very well informed individual, at least based on which side you take. I never had any intention of sparking a heated debate on marijuana use. I know that people do it, regardless of the dangers it faces to your health. I merely wished to get the point across that it is, in fact, dangerous and detrimental to your health. Also, it really depends on how often you smoke pot. If its a few times a week (or something like that), then your MUCH better off then those who do it on a daily basis. I choose not to do drugs or drink. I will (at the drop of a hat) engage in promiscuous sex with my fiance, but thats really the only "sinful" indulgence I partake in.