Nerf Treasure Hunter!!

Lavi said:
I don't get what you do not understand. If I was to do KS30 Copy Cat, I am guaranteed 200k minimun just to win. Did the drops from that devalue because everyone does that? No. Unlike OPS people do it infrequently enough to not spam the AH with more than the demand of the items which is what manaburning does. It makes a guaranteed win for little effort and creates large masses of runs into that one BC. That one BC now has no normal consistent drop of any value so the only reason to do it would be to get a V Claw which would have been my goal if there was a guarantee of atleast some gil. But to many this BC is no longer even profitable because the normal drops are junk. So the choice is a small chance at V Claw and no gil versus guaranteed gil and no claw. To me guaranteed gil is better because atleast I won't walk away empty handed, but I still am nowhere near getting a V Claw than when I was when I farmed the seals I needed.

The ONLY reason belts dropped in price so much was because 30 people all selling belts at once is going to force a price drop. Basic economics. Supply versus demand. Every high level uses one of those two belts possibly even both. The demand is high, but when you inundate the AH with them, you are forcing a huge supply which creates huge competition. Nothing like that has happened with any other BC. To my knowledge Copy Cat is the melee preferred choice for KS30 and all those drops are 100k+, so why the huge difference? Maybe it has to do with the manaburns...

Foo, I don't even want to get started on that.
Click to expand...

So what you are trying to say is that the number of people doing this ks would be lower if manaburning wasnt happening?

My arguement against this is that because this is the only ks that drops a v. claw, the frequency of people doing it will not change. Everyone that does this fight does it for the v. claw, and dont even try to say they dont. Instead of manaburning, people will still do these fights as they get enough seals. All manaburning allows for, is a quicker fight, but does nothing about how many people actually do the fight. I guarantee that if copycats dropped the v. claw and ops didnt, people, regardless of pt type, would flock to that in a heart beat.
 
Every job has its pros and cons. A theif is able to get gil very easily.....where...a ranger and ninja have to spend alot of gil....which sucks.

As a WHM you may not be able to get as much gil as the next guy, but you can also do things that alot of other jobs cant.

When you choose a job, you just have to accept the down falls that come with it. I play DRG cause I've always liked DRGs in the FF series. It irratates me at how much i'm LFG all the time, but thats something I deal with. I bet you dont have to be LFG even 1/8 of the time that I have to. Being LFG for an entire week comes to mind.
 
I don't give a shit about cannons as I have expained again and again and again. Manaburn exp parties like Alanon said are basically the only way to get exp for a BLM at end levels because they are simply not welcome in a melee cannon party do to the MP constraint. If SE were to nerf manaburn exp parties they would also have to do the same to melee cannons because BLM would be without a party to gain exp. I know all about manaburn exp parties since I have joined a couple and they are nothing exceptional. High exp, but chains never got past 5. A normal exp party with a BRD can do better. To add to the difficulty of manaburn exp, there is a far larger chance of failure than in a melee cannon. Mob doesn't die after several nukes, 2 hits and BLM goes baibai. Exp is killed and probably so is the party. Negative exp is fun...

What I contest is SE intends (intend and what actually happens are two different things) to nerf manaburn BC fights and that is all. SE like myself does not see the fairness nor has the desire for easy rewards. Nothing in this game is EVER easy so why should manaburning KS or DM be any different. Don't get me wrong, I love BLM job as much as the next person and Firestreak is correct in thinking that without them certain NMs will be near impossible to beat, but when one particular job makes everything easy, there is a problem. The solution to every problem in the game should not be "Throw BLMs at it until it dies".
 
Sirelrohir said:
So what you are trying to say is that the number of people doing this ks would be lower if manaburning wasnt happening?

My arguement against this is that because this is the only ks that drops a v. claw, the frequency of people doing it will not change. Everyone that does this fight does it for the v. claw, and dont even try to say they dont. Instead of manaburning, people will still do these fights as they get enough seals. All manaburning allows for, is a quicker fight, but does nothing about how many people actually do the fight. I guarantee that if copycats dropped the v. claw and ops didnt, people, regardless of pt type, would flock to that in a heart beat.
Click to expand...

So people normally form a line waiting to do ODS at the same time? It doesn't matter if the over all amount of runs was the same, but the sudden increases in these runs at any particular moment decreases the price and that price becomes permanent when these sudden overflows occur.

For instance you have scenario 1 with no manaburn. The demand is equal to the supply so price never fluctuates. 30 Belts go onto AH but all at equal intervals so that they don't sell relatively slow. Then there is scenario 2 with manaburn. 30 Belts all go onto AH each undercutting the first. Lots get sent back and those people see tons on AH already so they undercut some more. Some more get sent back and they undercut more. By the time the demand for the items equalled supply another run occurs and you now have a new large supply to contend with. It finally comes down to the item being worth more to an NPC than the AH. That is the effect of manaburning.

Items like those belts are used by almost everyone. Every mage has a hierarch and most melee and tanks use warwolf. I'd say the demand for those should be huge. Durandal, Sorrowful Harp, Hoplites Harpe, Attila's Earring and Fuma Sune-Ate are meant for only 1 or 2 specific jobs end level and their demand would be far less and yet these items are worth far more. Why? By the way, these are all drops from Copy Cat, the melee KS30 of choice it seems.
 
Lavi said:
So people normally form a line waiting to do ODS at the same time? It doesn't matter if the over all amount of runs was the same, but the sudden increases in these runs at any particular moment decreases the price and that price becomes permanent when these sudden overflows occur.

For instance you have scenario 1 with no manaburn. The demand is equal to the supply so price never fluctuates. 30 Belts go onto AH but all at equal intervals so that they don't sell relatively slow. Then there is scenario 2 with manaburn. 30 Belts all go onto AH each undercutting the first. Lots get sent back and those people see tons on AH already so they undercut some more. Some more get sent back and they undercut more. By the time the demand for the items equalled supply another run occurs and you now have a new large supply to contend with. It finally comes down to the item being worth more to an NPC than the AH. That is the effect of manaburning.

Items like those belts are used by almost everyone. Every mage has a hierarch and most melee and tanks use warwolf. I'd say the demand for those should be huge. Durandal, Sorrowful Harp, Hoplites Harpe, Attila's Earring and Fuma Sune-Ate are meant for only 1 or 2 specific jobs end level and their demand would be far less and yet these items are worth far more. Why? By the way, these are all drops from Copy Cat, the melee KS30 of choice it seems.
Click to expand...

How long has it been since these items first came out? It absolutely matters if the overall number of runs are the same. You are still going to have the same supply of belts on the server. And like you said the reason for such low prices, is the supply is so high.
 
Sirelrohir said:
How long has it been since these items first came out? It absolutely matters if the overall number of runs are the same. You are still going to have the same supply of belts on the server. And like you said the reason for such low prices, is the supply is so high.
Click to expand...

No. The reason prices are so low is huge competition. In the first scenario there is very little competition since each sale would be done around the same time another made it to the AH. The second scenario, everyone is competing for the same initial sale and thus the lowest price sells first. In the second scenario the only person who is without any competition is the final sale and by that time a permanent low price on AH history negates any possible chance of recuperating the lost initial price. The price is now permanent.
 
Lavi said:
No. The reason prices are so low is huge competition. In the first scenario there is very little competition since each sale would be done around the same time another made it to the AH. The second scenario, everyone is competing for the same initial sale and thus the lowest price sells first. In the second scenario the only person who is without any competition is the final sale and by that time a permanent low price on AH history negates any possible chance of recuperating the lost initial price. The price is now permanent.
Click to expand...

Ok, fine, w/e. now, since this is the case, how is this such a big advantage to the blm making money?
 
Sirelrohir said:
Ok, fine, w/e. now, since this is the case, how is this such a big advantage to the blm making money?
Click to expand...

Normal players has only a couple of chances at money whereas BLM manaburn relies on the large quantity of orbs to average out to make gil. 30 runs with a couple of large money drops seems pretty good. But for the average player doing this manaburn or not, they stand to make absolutely nothing bacause the average value of drops is so low. Basically the only difference is the value of normal drops in both BC and the guaranteed minimum is now worthless in this particular BC.
 
Lavi said:
Normal players has only a couple of chances at money whereas BLM manaburn relies on the large quantity of orbs to average out to make gil. 30 runs with a couple of large money drops seems pretty good. But for the average player doing this manaburn or not, they stand to make absolutely nothing bacause the average value of drops is so low. Basically the only difference is the value of normal drops in both BC and the guaranteed minimum is now worthless in this particular BC.
Click to expand...

Lavi, basically what i am getting from you is that you want blm to be poor.

The blm provide a service to those that choose to pay for it. They do not force anyone to go. No one is getting duped or ripped off here. People know before the ks fight what the rules are. If they like it, they stay and try, if they dont, they still have their orb to do w/e they want with it. Why does it bother you that blm make money. This is what i dont understand. You are absolutely irked that they make a little bit of gil.

Heres a totally hypothetical situation. What if there was a ks30 fight that could be quickly won w/ 5 banishaga II. How would you approach this fight? Since its just as hard for you to make gil as blm, would whm offer thier services to help people out for a fee? Your damn right they would.

Like i said before, this is a capitalist type economy. What you are wanting, is for people to not use their abilities b/c they can offer something that you cannot. Again, I ask, why do you care if people want to give a cut of their drops to the blm, why does this upset you?

I know, people work hard for their ks (mainly by being in xp pts anyway) and now the big bad blm is going to MAKE them pay to go on a ks that any pt set up can win.

So, in conclusion, you are mad about:

prices of common items dropping
blm making more gil then you
blm being able to do a DM fight faster then you

did i miss anything?
 
Lavi said:
Normal players has only a couple of chances at money whereas BLM manaburn relies on the large quantity of orbs to average out to make gil. 30 runs with a couple of large money drops seems pretty good. But for the average player doing this manaburn or not, they stand to make absolutely nothing bacause the average value of drops is so low. Basically the only difference is the value of normal drops in both BC and the guaranteed minimum is now worthless in this particular BC.
Click to expand...

So like this ks30 is like the only way dumb melee to make any money with their kindred seals. If you don't like it don't do it. In addition a couple of belts that get devalued has very little effect on anyone trying to make money. ENMs require no seals, do the 30 other kindred battles, use your bc seals for an easy pcc, or how about just level thf to 15 and go kill shit. Lavi I still have no idea where you are coming from. Manaburning this 1 ks and a ZM mission for an earring has very little effect on the economy or 99.9% of anyone. I say leave the fucking jobs alone - we are all still playing aren't we? Couldn't be that bad.
 
http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?pager.offset=0&cId=3148759

Some really cool stuff in that entire 8 page article. If you're too lazy to read...

BLACK MAGE: Square is very aware of the power advantage of the Back Mage, and wants to encourage BLMs to integrate into more balanced parties versus the popular Manaburn party trend. While Square hinted at making BLM more effective as a soloing class as opposed to their effectiveness in a Manaburn party, there are plans to add more spells to the BLM arsenal. How this will make them more desirable in conventional party setups compared to Manaburn configurations remains to be seen.

http://www.1up.com/do/previewPage?pager.offset=0&cId=3145765

On Page 2:
And actually this taken from an interview with the Dev team last year:


1UP: Raising the level cap would defeat the point of the Merit system. The last time I spoke with you at TGS you said that perhaps the Black Mages were overpowered and could use some adjustment, which sparked some controversy in the community. Now that there's been a couple months of tweaking and tuning done to the game, what job would you say you are most happy with and what jobs still need the most work?

HT: Regarding "manaburning" parties, I think that sounds pretty cool. [laughs] What I really meant to say at the time is that I think it's a good idea, and if anyone hears those stories about those kinds of parties and feels that Black Mages are too strong, I would like them to be more creative and to give you help in making your jobs strong so you can do more interesting things like that. But I don't think the BLM job itself should be weakened just because of this current trend of a new way to form your party. And this goes for every job. I'd rather adjust things laterally to try to bring a job's strength up or down. The only exception was the Ranger, not just because of the way people play and the amount of money they put into it, but also the job itself had a fundamental attack advantage, and that's what we most recently tried to fix. But in general we don't want to make any job weaker.


It's kinda funny to see 23 pages of you guys going on and on about stuff. I try not to jump to any conclusions and I'll wait till release date to see what goes on. To stick with OP...

You can have my Treasuer Hunter... Mine doesn't seem to work.
 
farming KS's as a 75whm isn't hard. Kuftal tunnel is one place you can go but there are many more places then just there. Its just easily accesable with tele-altep or outpost volblow(sp).
 
lol that press release just made me laugh. Acording to them the 3 most powerful job out there are blm, rdm, nin. Though they do stand out from other with there divesity <rdm> power<blm> def<nin> what people dont see is there are just as many flaw as any other class. Though blm is most powerful atk class out there they also have the worse def. Plus they are bound by there mp if they run out they dead if mob get in close they dead.
rdm is jack of all trade master of none. we are the mut of the community.
nin might be best evasive class out there and the best know sub but shadow go down or they get silence they dead withen secounds. Plus there hate keeping not as good as pally. A good mnk or blm can still hate from nin easy. Though people only look at the small pickture never the big so they will always be whining untill every one is the same and there id no divesity
 
hellstorm said:
lol that press release just made me laugh. Acording to them the 3 most powerful job out there are blm, rdm, nin. Though they do stand out from other with there divesity <rdm> power<blm> def<nin> what people dont see is there are just as many flaw as any other class. Though blm is most powerful atk class out there they also have the worse def. Plus they are bound by there mp if they run out they dead if mob get in close they dead.
rdm is jack of all trade master of none. we are the mut of the community.
nin might be best evasive class out there and the best know sub but shadow go down or they get silence they dead withen secounds. Plus there hate keeping not as good as pally. A good mnk or blm can still hate from nin easy. Though people only look at the small pickture never the big so they will always be whining untill every one is the same and there id no divesity
Click to expand...


I'm pretty sure that SMN has the worst defense. Just wanted to put that out there.
 
Foofighter said:
So like this ks30 is like the only way dumb melee to make any money with their kindred seals. If you don't like it don't do it. In addition a couple of belts that get devalued has very little effect on anyone trying to make money. ENMs require no seals, do the 30 other kindred battles, use your bc seals for an easy pcc, or how about just level thf to 15 and go kill shit. Lavi I still have no idea where you are coming from. Manaburning this 1 ks and a ZM mission for an earring has very little effect on the economy or 99.9% of anyone. I say leave the fucking jobs alone - we are all still playing aren't we? Couldn't be that bad.
Click to expand...

This debate, if you can call it that, has nothing to do with melee jobs or even thief. It has to do with the abuse of manaburning in the eyes of SE. KS30 ODS and DM are just two of probably a few things SE sees wrong with manaburning. To me they are the main problems of manaburns. I have no problem with manaburn exp parties, they are in my opinion no different than a melee cannon party. What I do think is it's unfair that BLMs can win DM with one press of the keyboard. You might as well just skip the BC, the CS and hand the earrings to all BLMs as soon as they reach level 73. There was no effort or worked involved and I do not see how they earned that earring. By default, KS manaburns are the same. No effort for a huge payout. Someone providing an orb spends countless hours farming seals versus a BLM who spends 5 mins of their time pressing enter a couple of times. I do not see how any job should be rewarded for no effort.

So it's ok to throw BLMs at anything and hope it goes away? I do not see how it's even fun to just stack BLMs for any event and manaburn it. It's not even exciting after 5 mins. It takes no skill, no strategy, no team effort in a game based entirely around team play. I see manaburning anything as an abuse. That's not a stategy. That's not even fun. That's like shooting fish in a barrel fun. The mobs die before they even get a chance to move. BCs end before they even start. How can that be exciting? Do you think for an instant SE intended to overpower anything to such an extent? DM is supposed to be what was the most difficult fight in the entire game pre-CoP, but with 16+ BLM it's a joke.

A lot of people think very poorly of the RNG nerf, but I think it actually had some good side effects. This mainly applies to Kirin, but instead of people running around attacking, people actually work together far more than they once did. People set up SC and BLM do their MBs. I can see not everyone does it and it doesn't always work, but it's a hell of a lot more exciting than just chasing Kirin hoping I do more damage than the last time I pressed enter. You know what really accentuates a BLM's power? It's not 5 other BLMs, that's for sure. It's a good old fashioned SC.

Wanna hear what I think will happen? SE nerfs -ga spells. They will probably be incredibly weak thus making any manaburn BC with multiple mobs impossible. In return, BLMs will probably get tier V spells or maybe AM IIs. Well maybe not that spells exactly, but some high level damage spells to replace -ga spells.
 
Lavi said:
Wanna hear what I think will happen? SE nerfs -ga spells. They will probably be incredibly weak thus making any manaburn BC with multiple mobs impossible. In return, BLMs will probably get tier V spells or maybe AM IIs. Well maybe not that spells exactly, but some high level damage spells to replace -ga spells.
Click to expand...

I will be really pissed if I can't make enormous quadav trains in Palborough mines and -ga them just for fun.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top