Nerf Treasure Hunter!!

I have no problem at all main healing as SMN. With earthen ward, phalanxga, aeriel armor, I can reduce damage main tanks take, remove all the damage backup tanks and party members take. Nix AE damage and allow myself to rest for longer periods of time allowing clear mind abilities to stack. Then when my party is taking low damage I can shift the focus to more offensive buffs like Fenrir's stat buffs. Put the eva/acc buff on with a ninja tank and it buffs their evasion so signifigantly it saves me MP easily while increasing damage output by buffing all the melee's accuracy.

Furthermore those buffs reducing damage makes SMN a very hate efficient healer, as instead of just directly curing the damage like a WHM they don't take hate for that damage reduced, as well as the tank retains more hate by not bleeding it off.

People who can't main heal as SMN are either people who are in a party that was in some way broken to begin with and a WHM would have failed, or they don't take advantage of all their abilities.
 
People play jobs like BLM for advantages in different fights. There are thieves on this board who will tell you that you shouldn't even try to camp NMs without a thief present. A BLM leveling BLM to make some gil on BCs is no different than a THF leveling THF to camp NMs.

Hence this thread.
 
Shaunessy said:
That has nothing to do with curing. That is buffing a party which is totally different.

I hope BLMs get smacked so hard when they do this that for a BLM to cause damage they have to hit things with their wand. Fuck BLM, fuck KS BCNMs, fuck Thundaga III, fuck the whole job. Blue Mage is gonna own Black Mage anyway.
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Yes, buffing is different from curing that is correct; HOWEVER, buffing is a key component of WHM or healing job. If you cannot even grasp that, go back to the dunes.

BLM will not get hugely nerfed and will probably get some very nice spells to boost the spells they are going to either nerf or lose. This has already been argued over and over. No one argues BLM should be one of the best DD in the game. No one argues that things will be difficult if SE completely nerfs the job like they did RNG, but no one except the BLMs expect it to be that bad. What people do not agree with is winning any BC or any battle for that matter by tossings a party/alliance of BLMs at it. Some BLMs want to argue it's part of the game so they are free to take advantage of it and this is true, no one can stop a BLM from doing it. But SE didn't intend for the game to be played like that and they plan on adjusting the game to how they intended it to be. So now BLMs will have to play the game the way it was intended whether they like it or not. End of discussion.

I do recall shortly after Diabolos fight for the avatar was introduced there was a glitch in the fight which made it possible to win very easily. No one argued it was a glitch and no one got all upset when SE corrected the problem (I do believe they did corrected it although I wouldn't know, I have never done the fight). This is no different, SE is correcting something they see as a problem and if they consider it a problem, then it IS a problem.
 
Peregrine said:
Nerfs are social fixes more than functional fixes. It's not that anyone needs blms any more than any other job. It's that they tell you you do and you believe it. So long as you can't convince a lot of people that black mage isn't NEEDED, they're going to be socially nerfed until a black mage is not any more important than a dragoon.

Again, in a perfect world--the world the dev. team is going for, a samurai and a black mage would be unequally equal. To play black mage for some perceived aquisition of power is to call a nerf down on yourself. To not invite a dark knight because of a lack of perceived power is the same thing--a catalyst for a social nerf to force people into unequal equality.
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Ya know, there was once this man named Marx that had a similiar view....
 
Firestreak said:
People play jobs like BLM for advantages in different fights. There are thieves on this board who will tell you that you shouldn't even try to camp NMs without a thief present. A BLM leveling BLM to make some gil on BCs is no different than a THF leveling THF to camp NMs.

Hence this thread.
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No. Again you are wrong. SE intended thiefs to have superior farming/soloing skills. THF has the highest evasion plus the addition of treasure hunter makes it stand out as a much better farmer. This is clearly evident when SE gave this ability to thiefs and ONLY thiefs. The same cannot be said about BLMs. They were not INTENDED to be used like they are and that is the problem. You are doing what SE did not intend to be done and that is why you will get nerfed. Had people played like SE wanted, not stacked fights in favor of one job over another, then this wouldn't be a discussion and there certainly wouldn't be a nerf.

There are plenty of glitches in the game that have been taken adavantage of and abused until finally SE corrected the problem. Did anyone complain when those glitches were corrected? What about all the fishermen who used to make all the gil off padded caps? SE corrected that because it was a problem and if any of those people had tried to argue against the nerf, I am sure a hundred more would argue for it. The only difference in this glitch is took far too long to fix. Winning any BC in 30 seconds is a glitch no matter how you look at it. SE wants people to work for their rewards and as they see it, 30 seconds of effort does not constitute much effort.
 
Lavi said:
No. Again you are wrong. SE intended thiefs to have superior farming/soloing skills. THF has the highest evasion plus the addition of treasure hunter makes it stand out as a much better farmer. This is clearly evident when SE gave this ability to thiefs and ONLY thiefs. The same cannot be said about BLMs. They were not INTENDED to be used like they are and that is the problem. You are doing what SE did not intend to be done and that is why you will get nerfed. Had people played like SE wanted, not stacked fights in favor of one job over another, then this wouldn't be a discussion and there certainly wouldn't be a nerf.

There are plenty of glitches in the game that have been taken adavantage of and abused until finally SE corrected the problem. Did anyone complain when those glitches were corrected? What about all the fishermen who used to make all the gil off padded caps? SE corrected that because it was a problem and if any of those people had tried to argue against the nerf, I am sure a hundred more would argue for it. The only difference in this glitch is took far too long to fix. Winning any BC in 30 seconds is a glitch no matter how you look at it. SE wants people to work for their rewards and as they see it, 30 seconds of effort does not constitute much effort.
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BLM are more useful in BCs than many other DD jobs, some jobs become more or less useful depending on the type of BC and the nature of their 2h.

The problem with Divine Might and KS is that the BC is broken! I am not arguing that 30 seconds in and out is right, I'm saying simply fix the problem, the problem is the BC. If we can already agree BLM is in general not overpowered, why nerf them as a whole over 2 fights. I've explained over and over again where the fights themselves can be easily fixed.
 
alanon said:
Ya know, there was once this man named Marx that had a similiar view....
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The problem with Communism is everyone is granted equality no matter how much effort they put in. A street sweeper makes as much as rocket scientist or anyone else for that matter. There is no reward for effort or work involved so no one puts forth an effort if they will recieve the same amount regardless. A capatalistic society, which is what I assume you would prefer, rewards a person for the work they do and the education they recieve. Now how does BLM fit into a capalistic society? BLMs are the Paris Hilton of Capatalistic society. They get rich through no effort of their own and have equal or lesser education than everyone else. See the problem with both isn't the fundamental ideas but the people behind them. Each has the ability to be abused and in the case of BLMs, SE is pointing out your abuse and you are getting the axe.
 
Firestreak said:
It'd be like instead of fixing padded caps to nerf all fisherman.
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Fixing the BCs means adjusting it for everyone and not just BLMs. They do not want to exclude the job from doing the BC, just exlcude manaburns from doing it. The EASIEST way is to adjust the -ga spell from being effective rather than adjust several different BCs and NM fights. By adjusting the HP or making the mobs resistant to sleep or magic still makes standard setups more difficult when the only goal is to make it harder for manaburns without affecting the standard setups. In the case of fisherman, it's simpler just to reduce the price of padded caps to an NPC. The easiest solution to an problem is always the best.
 
Lavi said:
The problem with Communism is everyone is granted equality no matter how much effort they put in. A street sweeper makes as much as rocket scientist or anyone else for that matter. There is no reward for effort or work involved so no one puts forth an effort if they will recieve the same amount regardless. A capatalistic society, which is what I assume you would prefer, rewards a person for the work they do and the education they recieve. Now how does BLM fit into a capalistic society? BLMs are the Paris Hilton of Capatalistic society. They get rich through no effort of their own and have equal or lesser education than everyone else. See the problem with both isn't the fundamental ideas but the people behind them. Each has the ability to be abused and in the case of BLMs, SE is pointing out your abuse and you are getting the axe.
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That's an extremely simplified reason for the failure of communism. More complicated reasons will have to increase the inefficiency of big government, supply and demand, ext.

The ideal Alanon is trying to express I believe is best described by a short story I remember reading long ago. The name escapes me, but it's a dystopia where in order to ensure equality the government enforces counters to everyone's strengths. Beautiful women have to wear ugly masks, smart people have a constant buzzing put in their head, strong people have weights added to them, ext.
 
Lavi said:
Fixing the BCs means adjusting it for everyone and not just BLMs. They do not want to exclude the job from doing the BC, just exlcude manaburns from doing it. The EASIEST way is to adjust the -ga spell from being effective rather than adjust several different BCs and NM fights. By adjusting the HP or making the mobs resistant to sleep or magic still makes standard setups more difficult when the only goal is to make it harder for manaburns without affecting the standard setups. In the case of fisherman, it's simpler just to reduce the price of padded caps to an NPC. The easiest solution to an problem is always the best.
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No, the easier way would be to adjust the BC. There are very simple methods available like moving the start positions of the mobs so that -ga spells can't reach all the mobs.
 
alanon said:
Ya know, there was once this man named Marx that had a similiar view....
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And your view would be what? That dragoons are second class citizens because of their choices?

Marx's application of communism to online gaming is and will always be the goal of the development team. All jobs are equal. That's the goal. They don't do the same things, but they're equal. What you consider a witty retort is ironically the truth. If you don't see that, then I'm sure this whole nerfing business perpetually confuses you.
 
Peregrine said:
And your view would be what? That dragoons are second class citizens because of their choices?

Marx's application of communism to online gaming is and will always be the goal of the development team. All jobs are equal. That's the goal. They don't do the same things, but they're equal. What you consider a witty retort is ironically the truth. If you don't see that, then I'm sure this whole nerfing business perpetually confuses you.
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No, actually I do see it. Drgs are some badass, motherfuckers. As you have correctly pointed out on several occasions, jobs are not imballanced, the people that play them are sour. In the case of Drgs, it's because 12 years olds jumped on the job and ruined the reputation. I'm sure everyone with an ounce of sense sees it. The same can be said of Drks.
There is nothing wrong with the job of Blm Pere, you have said so yourself. You embody your spite into Odon. Now SE may or may not ruin a classic FF job. Does that fix Odon? No. People with figure out other 100% strats, and those will be "exploitted". Then the nerf stick comes out again and round and round we go. When does it end? When there's nothing left? When the last job "Dwarftosser" from the expansion "Rise of the Chain Treasure" losses Ranged Attack?
There is no imbalance. Maybe percieved injustice, but no imbalance. Look at the CoP missions from start to finish. The are thousands of strats and job combinations available to complete those missions, and since what? .01% of people have completed them using the manaburn setup we nerf them? Blms nuke stones in dynamus? So? Rdms sleep links there. People feel Dynamus is tougher with no Rdms. Should we nerf them too? People think you need a Pld or a Nin tank for things. Nerf them!
 
People have blm envy. Its reflected in every post so far. This attitude of 'omg, blm can do something, nerf them' is not a good attitude to have. Yes, I can get 5 other blm and do ks30 in a couple of minutes. So what? Im not inviting you, im not asking for your seals. I could care less how you make your gil, why do you care how i make mine? b/c its easy? if that is your answer, then what it comes down to is straight jealousy.

Lavi, you keep harping on SE didnt intend the game to be played this way. SE didnt intend alot of things, such as nin tanks, and smn healers. Thats not what SE wanted originally. Would you have them nerf those jobs b/c SE didnt 'intend' for it? Thats not an excuse. The problem is people crying about how much easier blm have it (for 2 fights), that eventually SE listens to shut then up, but ends up crippling a job (eg. drg nerf, and rng nerf). By the way, this is what blm was intend for (quote from playonline)

"Through devastating magic spells, black mages bring tremendous firepower to the battlefield."

No where does it say, tremendous firepower when in groups with a particular job. Who knows, maybe people do have fun playing in manaburns. Thats for no one to decide except the people involved. The reason I play blm is my own, and no one elses. Maybe I like huge amounts of damage, so what of it? Is it not my perogitive to play a job for whatever reason I want? Someone explain to me how it would be pathetic if I am pissed that they gimp a job I like for w/e reason?

As for mish, yeah, we dont know what the nerf is goin to be. However, with SE's past track record, what would you expect? Name me one job they have adjusted for balance that has actually worked out. I honestly cannot think of any (and yeah, i could be wrong, so this is a real question).

I swear, people need to quit worrying about how other jobs play and focus on their own. Quit bitching about every little advantage that a job is supposed to have. You want to charge for a r3, do it, no one is stopping you. You want to charge gil to tank somethin, do it. You are free to do w/e you want in game. By nerfing blm you guys are saying, hey, lets keep our options open, but close a couple of options on this other job, b/c they can do it easily.
 
Alanon wins :P anyways.. BLM nerf I'll call for a WAR and SMN and NIN nerf.. GO GO GO!! Enough bitching and it'll happen D: (god I'm sure that'll piss off several people XD)
 
Peregrine said:
And your view would be what? That dragoons are second class citizens because of their choices?

Marx's application of communism to online gaming is and will always be the goal of the development team. All jobs are equal. That's the goal. They don't do the same things, but they're equal. What you consider a witty retort is ironically the truth. If you don't see that, then I'm sure this whole nerfing business perpetually confuses you.
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Peregrine, what i don't think you communists understand is that its OK for people to be different. What would be the fun of diversity of jobs if any DD job could be substituted for any other DD job in every situation? What would be the point of levelling more than one? This seems to be the way you would run ffxi with your gms and such. How it is now, BLMs are good at lots of damage over a small period of time. They are good for quick fights and nuking over a short period of time. This makes them extremely useful to situations like bosses or BCNM. This is what BLM was supposed to be good and useful for. Toward end game, they become less useful in XP parties and other longer fights because of the constraint on their MP.
 
Perceived injustice makes it sound like you think this is an illegitimate nerf. You can't honestly say that black mage isn't being abused. You can't say that dark knight is. Injustice really does abound. People sit in Jeuno that would otherwise not. Tactics are left unused that were intended to be used. Black mages don't associate with players that they otherwise would. There is very little "perceived" about it. This is so much more flagrant than rangers. Again, you can't deny that more than a handful of this server's forum posters, let alone serverwide, let alone populationwide, run meleers through KS gauntlets while taking a free cut. If you can manaburn Xarcabard, it's thrice as easy. You can justify that it's ok to do that all you want, but when push comes to shove, development simply disagrees that black mages deserve those rights.

Black mage isn't overpowered. It's imbalanced. Power: easy :: imbalance: simple. Weak: hard :: balance :complex

The dev. team can easily change the balance within the black mage job while leaving their level of "power" unchanged. You can keep black mage just as "easy" while making it more "complex." That will immediately disband the simple operations that the offending black mages have grown fat on.

There is real injustice. It is not misperception. Black mage is too simple, and that is its problem. They need to unstack the simple, obvious synergism when black mages play together and not with others and replace it with something that is too hard for the abusers to realistically overcome.
 
Sirelrohir said:
People have blm envy. Its reflected in every post so far. This attitude of 'omg, blm can do something, nerf them' is not a good attitude to have. Yes, I can get 5 other blm and do ks30 in a couple of minutes. So what? Im not inviting you, im not asking for your seals. I could care less how you make your gil, why do you care how i make mine? b/c its easy? if that is your answer, then what it comes down to is straight jealousy.
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This is so wrong it's laughable. Envy would only happen if I wanted to do the same thing that black mages do, but don't, otherwise I would have leveled black mage to begin with. They can do something? Congrats, but that's completely irrelevant to what a bunch of people are talking about. The nerf isn't because they can do something, but because they're the only ones people will use to do something.

For the last time, I don't give a shit about KS30's and that black mages make money off them, nor do I give a shit that they manaburn exp. That's not a blm-only thing, other jobs can do the same thing, but since only BLM is getting a change KS30 and exp are obviously not what SE was looking to when they decided to make the change. What I've been talking about has been stacking more and more black mages against any fight you do; ignoring other jobs because they don't have the same damage output as a shitton of blm's.

As Alanon said, it's the perception of the players more than an actual a tangible imbalance. People choose to only use blm's, but SE wants ALL jobs to be used, not just one for DD. It's that perception, however, that's leading to real balance issues because people only want black mages, anything else is "second rate" at best. That's why the proposed change to only nerf the damage when you have blm's in large numbers is so perfect to solve the problem; it stops blm-only killing but doesn't destroy the job. If people would stop flocking to those imbalances, percieved or not, then there would be zero reason for a nerf at all; because the job's mechanics are fine.
 
Prothall said:
They are good for quick fights and nuking over a short period of time. This makes them extremely useful to situations like bosses or BCNM. This is what BLM was supposed to be good and useful for.
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This is so obviously NOT what black mage was "supposed" to be useful for. You took WAY too much of the pie, there. Again, boss fights, bcs, and HNMs are not just for black mages. You are not intended to carry anyone in any of those any more than they carry you. If you play this game thinking the huge arena that is every timed fight and HNM in existance is your "little" game-given right niche as a black mage...well naturally you're going to be corrected. That's almost everything the game is.
 
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