Nerf Treasure Hunter!!

[Sirelrohir]

This is so wrong it's laughable. Envy would only happen if I wanted to do the same thing that black mages do, but don't, otherwise I would have leveled black mage to begin with. They can do something? Congrats, but that's completely irrelevant to what a bunch of people are talking about. The nerf isn't because they can do something, but because they're the only ones people will use to do something.

For the last time, I don't give a shit about KS30's and that black mages make money off them, nor do I give a shit that they manaburn exp. That's not a blm-only thing, other jobs can do the same thing, but since only BLM is getting a change KS30 and exp are obviously not what SE was looking to when they decided to make the change. What I've been talking about has been stacking more and more black mages against any fight you do; ignoring other jobs because they don't have the same damage output as a shitton of blm's.

As Alanon said, it's the perception of the players more than an actual a tangible imbalance. People choose to only use blm's, but SE wants ALL jobs to be used, not just one for DD. It's that perception, however, that's leading to real balance issues because people only want black mages, anything else is "second rate" at best. That's why the proposed change to only nerf the damage when you have blm's in large numbers is so perfect to solve the problem; it stops blm-only killing but doesn't destroy the job. If people would stop flocking to those imbalances, percieved or not, then there would be zero reason for a nerf at all; because the job's mechanics are fine.

So, instead of stacking blm, what do u think is going to happen? people are gonna want to stack smn and mnk. People are always going to want to do things as efficiently as possible. And, it seems to me in your view, jobs should be nerfed. Since you are so anti stacking, wouldnt it be a better idea to nerf damage output of ANY job if more then 2 are in a pt?

 

[Peregrine]

Basically the offending black mages are saying the equivalent of:
"Black mages are supposed to be good at BC, KS, Capped fights, endgame NMs, HNMs, things that hit too hard, dynamis, and manaburning IT++ from 10-73. That's our niche. Thieves are good at farming silk threads, and choco digging. TOTALLY equal guys. Use your niches instead of wanting ours."

What is dragoon's niche if yours is all capped, timed, and untankable fights?

I guess it's officially soloing, right? Yeah, well he can't GET parties, so nice niche there. Nice forced, lousy, breadcrumb niche.

 

[Bajaratt]

So, instead of stacking blm, what do u think is going to happen? people are gonna want to stack smn and mnk. People are always going to want to do things as efficiently as possible. And, it seems to me in your view, jobs should be nerfed. Since you are so anti stacking, wouldnt it be a better idea to nerf damage output of ANY job if more then 2 are in a pt?

As I said in the other thread, there's already limits on monks' endgame damage so until they start counter-tanking or being allowed to melee there's no real potential for abuse there. Smn's have a similar but lesser restriction on their damage; but smn is likely to be the next job nerfed because people are already flocking to the job so they can be the next "uber DD" job.

Of course, all of this would be solved if instead of stacking one job, people used the multitude of jobs that are already available to us; but that will likely never happen.

 

[Firestreak]

The question is the affect of nerfing jobs as a solution. If you already agree the "bandwagon" people as you call them will move onto another job, and another job, and another job, it becomes relatively pointless.

What worries me isn't a question of if I'll be able to dominate KS30. I don't Ks30 for gil. I didn't BLM cannon DM for my earring. I've never done an all BLM Dynamis or KS99.

What worries me is by making all jobs the same, leveling multiple jobs will be a waste. If I can't point to an endgame activity and say that levleing a job will give me the biggest edge there, then there is a problem. What the game needs is to add more content for other jobs. Areas where a DRG is just perfect. How about a big HNM that is really weak to H2h?

Why can't squaresoft just work to make more content that encourages gain out of leveling those lesser sought after jobs?

All nerfing does is make us repeat the same content over and over again. And there you have it, squaresoft's intentions. To slow progress as opposed to add content.

 

[Sirelrohir]

As I said in the other thread, there's already limits on monks' endgame damage so until they start counter-tanking or being allowed to melee there's no real potential for abuse there. Smn's have a similar but lesser restriction on their damage; but smn is likely to be the next job nerfed because people are already flocking to the job so they can be the next "uber DD" job.

Of course, all of this would be solved if instead of stacking one job, people used the multitude of jobs that are already available to us; but that will likely never happen.

Well, we agree about the smn thing, but you are saying stacking jobs is what se doesnt want. What I was going for in my original responce is that SE doesnt want certain jobs stacked. This is eventually going to lead to other jobs being stacked, hence the smn and mnk comment I made. This is regardless of limitations, b/c every job has limitations, especially a blm and mp in a kiren fight. As an elven blm, I dont have mp for shit.. I nuke kiren a few times (getting resisted usually), then I have to heal.

And I know your beef isnt with the ks and DM, but alot of other people keep bringing that up.

 

[Peregrine]

The question is the affect of nerfing jobs as a solution. If you already agree the "bandwagon" people as you call them will move onto another job, and another job, and another job, it becomes relatively pointless.

What worries me isn't a question of if I'll be able to dominate KS30. I don't Ks30 for gil. I didn't BLM cannon DM for my earring. I've never done an all BLM Dynamis or KS99.

What worries me is by making all jobs the same, leveling multiple jobs will be a waste. If I can't point to an endgame activity and say that levleing a job will give me the biggest edge there, then there is a problem. What the game needs is to add more content for other jobs. Areas where a DRG is just perfect. How about a big HNM that is really weak to H2h?

Why can't squaresoft just work to make more content that encourages gain out of leveling those lesser sought after jobs?

All nerfing does is make us repeat the same content over and over again. And there you have it, squaresoft's intentions. To slow progress as opposed to add content.

You are not Square's biggest paycheck, and your solution would not help most players. Leveling another job so that they can do X better isn't on the agenda of the vast majority of paying players' list. Each job should have something that makes them unique and not generic of course, but they should not have something that makes them better at arenas so general as "that fight." Or "those events." A dragoon has every right to be taken to every event and every fight like they were meant to go there, because they WERE meant to go there. Whether or not players allow them tells you how imbalanced things are. Square is not in the business of saying, "sorry sams, you're supposed to suck at that BC. Go do the other one or level something else." People won't level something else, and they shouldn't have to just to be accepted into the "in" crowd. Level a drk for diabolos? No, level a drk because you enjoy playing it, and take it into everything like it was meant to be taken.

 

[Firestreak]

But you don't need any specific job for any fight, the point being that some jobs will make it easier. You don't need to level DRK for Diablos, but if you level DRK, you damn well should have that stun edge when you do diablos. Any job can still participate in any aspect of endgame and win. The point of variety is to not say, well I'm lvl 75 BLM, I am done with leveling now, the biggest time sink squaresoft has!

Endgame isn't even what interests most people after their first 75 job, leveling another job is.

 

[Peregrine]

Most people don't even finish their first job.
Again, you're way right on the bell curve when it comes to hitting the end of things. It would be flat-out unfair to more-specialize general fights, because it would flat-out punish those who do not level anything but dragoon.

 

[Firestreak]

So basically your solution is instead of having every job ABLE to win in every fight, you'd prefer every job to have the exact equal chance to win in every fight? In essense making each job the same.

In which case I return to my original, opening post. nerf treasure hunter. Nerf thf solo ability until it is just the same as BLM, being that I shouldn't have to level another job except BLM to be equal to you as a THF camping Sozu.

That's equality if you want to take it that far.

 

[Mishaela]

Telling people that the reasons you want to play a game should be the same reasons they should want to play a game = pathetic.

Sorry, but playing a GAME for anything but having fun is purely pathetic. If people try to become the best, it's no longer a game, but a task, or more specifically a chore, that they'll wind up repeating ceaselessly, whining about wasted effort along the way since there'll always be minor adjustments that tip the scale different directions and in the end they'll just give up and quit.

Calling people thieves because of a strategy they use and then asking for an item created by that method = pathetic.

I never considered what BLMs did as thievery, but letting EX stuff drop rather than it goto people who need it just because they have a different point of view is PURE assholeness, which if you guys were trying to play the "better than them" game, that method fails miserably.

Crying how all jobs are equally balanced, and then blaming people for using the advantages and then calling for a nerf = pathetic.

I'm not saying all jobs are balanced. Hell, BLM is the only job I know that can hit high IT for 1000+ commonplace. DRK MIGHT be able to do that in a crapton of ACC gear with double minuet and souleater, but he'd also wind up dead right after. But it's also not like any other job can come even close to tearing up stuff so much stronger than them. But that's not the problem I have. It's when a party of BLMs camp on top of your party and starts training the zone and frying it all, and laughing at your party because they're "the better job". I don't even care that much if there's an imbalance or not, but when people start thinking they hold authority over other jobs because of the job they are, then yes, theres a BIG, BIG problem.

We already have had this problem with having to put up with RDMs and BRDs thinking they can do what they want because they're the "backbone of the party", it'd really be nice if so many BLMs weren't starting to pick up that conceited attitude too. If a job has such a grasp on one thing that it makes the people playing the job arrogant towards that thing, there's obviously too much of a misbalance. You're not gonna hear a DD go about playing the "backbone of the party" card, but I guaruntee you virtually every noob BLM/RDM/BRD has played it a dozen and a half times at the very least. And notice what things SE is fixing? Refreshers and nukers. WOAH CRAP COINCIDENCE.

I'm not worried about any specific job nef. I've got 3 other 75 jobs, all with their sky gear, all merited out. I've already got my SMN climbing through the 60s. You think a nerf can stop me? I just see it as hurtful for all the server, as BLM are a great benefit to endgame activity.

A nerf may not stop you, but that unfortunately doesn't apply to all of the BLMs out there. A huge amount of them are already levelling SMN just because they heard of this stupid adjustment, and they're too ignorant to notice that they're adjusting SMN too (making BP strength based on Summoning Skill, and supposedly 70BPs needing 100TP+ to be remotely effective). Following the "freak out because they're adjusting my job" logic, shouldn't all the "omgI'msostrong" BLMs totally skip the SMN boat and just goto the 3'rd strongest job?

 

[Skaw]

Here's the thing. If Square wants something to be an 8-Hour long ordeal. It's going to take 8 Hours to complete. You have no say in it. This isn't your game, it's thiers. Don't like it? Quit.

Further more, in concurrance with Peregrine, this game isn't called "Black Mage Online." Bosses, BC, KS, ENM, they're all tuned to where all the jobs can do something. Black Mage no more accels at it than any other job, given a balanced party. But many people have abused the huge, instantaneous damage aspect of Black Mage, short cutting Square's design.

If you still don't think it's wrong, let's put it in this aspect: You're entered in a Marathon Run. Everyone's running the same course, at the same pace. But all of a sudden, you see 18 other hijack a pickup truck and blow by everyone.

Thats what has happened, and you've had to have been struck blind if you fail to see it, regardless if you participate in it or not.

 

[Marajade]

Further more, in concurrance with Peregrine,

I refute anything based on this.

 

[Firestreak]

Sorry, but playing a GAME for anything but having fun is purely pathetic. If people try to become the best, it's no longer a game, but a task, or more specifically a chore, that they'll wind up repeating ceaselessly, whining about wasted effort along the way since there'll always be minor adjustments that tip the scale different directions and in the end they'll just give up and quit.

Fun yes, and fun in an MMORPG is different than fun in GTA3. Do you farm gil for "fun"? Are all the quests you do purely for "fun"? And if that fun, is the accomplishment of being highly effective, it's no different than the "fun" of being the right job for the right fight.

You need to shut up and stop caring about those of us who may have fun for reasons you won't admit to sharing yourself. At least I enjoy exping, so leveling different jobs is not a chore to me. If you don't want to play a game with chores involved, what in the holy fuck are you doing playing FFXI?

I never considered what BLMs did as thievery, but letting EX stuff drop rather than it goto people who need it just because they have a different point of view is PURE assholeness, which if you guys were trying to play the "better than them" game, that method fails miserably.

Well congratulations, you never called BLMs thieves. You never spent hours of your life ranting about how much you hate them for it and they're cheaters. The people who were denied the item on that basis It's not just about disagreement, not about a different point a view. It's about intolerance. While all of those BLM are perfectly tolerant of people like you who say your way of playing is better, like assholes you can't accept that they prefer to play their way. It's not just disagreement but harrassment.

http://www.qcdn.org/showthread.php?t=16918

You can feel whatever you want to feel about BLM balance. You can't flame and harrass people on a constant basis and then expect them to do you a favor. Giving the item would have been a favor, it's not their right, not their obligation. Normally if you want a favor you can start by being civil to a person. Hence a civil discussion with BLM about the questions of balance not angry accussations and declarations of gratitude of a nerf because of pure hatred.



The rest of that is just an emotion driven rant so I see no point covering the same points over and over. I'll say that you're looking at it the wrong way. It's not a job's "strength". BLM are not particulary strong, not in their DoT. They also are the most vulnerable and are the only DDs that can't pass their hate off by form of a pet or SATA. BLM just happen to be very useful in different situational fights. I think if you want to balance the jobs out you need to count up all the situations where each job really shines, from different BCs, soloing, exp camps, different NMs and different HNMs. See which jobs have the least and then add more content for them.

 

[Rorion]

Oh boy...
All the thingys that drops down in Tetris should be cubes, I hate the other ones, it's not fair!!!

 

[Andreva]

I concur with Rorion. Anything aside from the cubes is horridly imballanced, and should be removed forthwith.

 

[Mai Ikari]

Funny you both pick that example, because that's what people have been doing... Except BLM is the cube.

Personally, I perfer the 1x4's.

 

[Mishaela]

Good job getting totally pissy over my otherwise mild opinion. You're a big boy. <3

Fire, if you don't help someone just because you don't want to help them, fine. But when you choose not to help someone just because they have a different point of view (such as some people here calling BLMs selfish assholes or whatever), it's your choice though that IS somewhat conceited. But inviting people out to lot tongue when you knew of their standpoint towards BLM and then going "oh hahah now they're 10m" or "oh now our BLMs want the tongues", does back up the whole "selfish asshole" outlook in absolute.


Regarding the "not helping because they speak ill of us" crap...you know how bad this server'd be if every WHM decided to be like "2k 10k, R3 50k lols" since so many people speak of them all as moneygrubbing sh-!ts? Think about that for a second.

I think if you want to balance the jobs out you need to count up all the situations where each job really shines, from different BCs, soloing, exp camps, different NMs and different HNMs. See which jobs have the least and then add more content for them.

That could work, the only problem is SE tries not to make stuff that certain jobs can't do. Unfortunately, anything BLM friendly in the least is easily solo'd/manaburned by them. Probably the least BLM-friendly things out there for BLM right now are Kirin AND Race Runner, which are pretty much no-one friendly. =/ There's the Cardian and Pot KSes too, but those don't even drop anything good.

 

[Clocian]

Lvl THF. Case closed. Don't like it? {That's too bad.}

 

[Prothall]

Mish, you dont have to make stuff other jobs can't do, just stuff where that one job excels particularly. Like maybe you can beat it a lot easier with drg melees as opposed to drks or blms or something.

Also, black mage is not a cube! They are lines! Monk is a cube.

 

[Firestreak]

The problem is when all jobs perform equally in all areas that essentially choice becomes irrelevant. You break the differences down and down and one day you wake up and everything is the same. I believe equal and at the same time different is possible. What's important is the equality part, and with additions of new content where the jobs previously stagnant can excel then we can make content for everyone.

But if you want to equalize end game fights, then equalize ability to hunt NM as well. Sure I can camp NM now as my BLM, just can do it better as a THF. Therefore should I have to level THF to camp NMs?

If you want to say say, if you want to camp NMs and have the absolute best job for it, level THF for it, then yes, you're on my side. My side also says if you want to do KS30 then level BLM.

However a BLM can camp NMs, a THF can do KS30. There are no barriers simply for 1 job it's a hell of a lot easier. Nerf one then nerf the other.