Mistaya said:
Please Mistaya you and Gims are really good people I remember meeting you when My Rng was 14 in the dunes. We are not all like Fire, there are lots of better people with better attitudes out there. He just always thinks hes right and can-not be told otherwise reminds me of cubs and vang but one problem they usually ARE right.
I have said the most important reason that Fire can-not be bother to respond to just like Pandas many correct points.
SE had that larege TNLs when the level caps where first introduced for obvious reasons. Thats the past, the level cap is not 50 or 60 or even 70 anymore so it just doesnt work.
Get over yourself Fire and realize your living in the past. Or if you hate it that much just quit. :roll:
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Hey wait guys hang on.
As of 17 April 2005, FFXI for PC is only $19.99. So is the CoP expansion.
Does anyone else think this is unfair to us 'long-time' players? I spend the full $49.99 before SE decided to cater to all these stupid casual players and n00bs and let them limp all the way to installation with a $20 bill! And all they're going to do is clog up all the zones and everything they do will be worth so much less because they paid $40 less for XI+CoP than I did! If Square doesn't apologize to all of us older players and send us refund checks to cover all those price breaks I never got to take advantage of I'm gonna whine and moan and bitch about it over and over and over and treat all these "budget n00bz (like the name I gave 'em?)" like dirt because they devalue all of my hard work earning the cash to buy a copy of this game!! WTF WTF WTF WTF SE SKREWZ THE PLAYAS AGAIN
/do I need a sarcasm tag
As of 17 April 2005, FFXI for PC is only $19.99. So is the CoP expansion.
Does anyone else think this is unfair to us 'long-time' players? I spend the full $49.99 before SE decided to cater to all these stupid casual players and n00bs and let them limp all the way to installation with a $20 bill! And all they're going to do is clog up all the zones and everything they do will be worth so much less because they paid $40 less for XI+CoP than I did! If Square doesn't apologize to all of us older players and send us refund checks to cover all those price breaks I never got to take advantage of I'm gonna whine and moan and bitch about it over and over and over and treat all these "budget n00bz (like the name I gave 'em?)" like dirt because they devalue all of my hard work earning the cash to buy a copy of this game!! WTF WTF WTF WTF SE SKREWZ THE PLAYAS AGAIN
/do I need a sarcasm tag
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CubsWoo said:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Seriously though, WTF man?!?! Screw SE!!!!!!!!!! Burn them!!!!
Unfair!!!!
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CubsWoo said:
I must say cubs, I have never met you ingame but after this I really would like to. This example was right on the money, since i love sarcasm. It is very true, even though i HATE to admit it. You are right, completely right. The only thing is me spending an extra $40 IRL is a lot easier to swallow than the amount of time it took to gain this exp, the amount of exp in question none of us know yet. If its 10k a lvl...thats really not fair and WILL screw up the game, something you lower lvls should care about. If its 3k...who cares. I guess it will all depend on the effects of the game. As for high lvl compensation...your right, we dont deserve anything no matter how much we believe we deserve it.
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You are not compensated for differential historic effort. Ever. If I have to have more knowledge than any medical generation to date, earn less than any medical generation to date, and get sued more often than any medical generation to date, without whining or hating, then you can take 50,000 xp and suck it up. You signed up for it just like I did. If an 80 year-old farmer who plowed by mule can refrain from whining like an old fart and shaking their fist at combines, then you can take entertainment changes with at least a little bit of stiff lip.
If you threaten to leave, you'll be ignored. This is a time to be thankful. Define yourself by your own enjoyment of the game, and your own personal effort independent of others. That's what counts in the end no matter what they change about the game. If you don't, there will always be some little changes or shifts that leave you in a fit of rage over lack of compensation.
Take the very strong hint given by the developers though. Level 75 isn't what it used to be. That right there tells you the developers don't think you're entitled to jack based on past efforts. Back when you were 75 it had weight, so how can you think that you need more compensation now that it's losing its importance?
If you threaten to leave, you'll be ignored. This is a time to be thankful. Define yourself by your own enjoyment of the game, and your own personal effort independent of others. That's what counts in the end no matter what they change about the game. If you don't, there will always be some little changes or shifts that leave you in a fit of rage over lack of compensation.
Take the very strong hint given by the developers though. Level 75 isn't what it used to be. That right there tells you the developers don't think you're entitled to jack based on past efforts. Back when you were 75 it had weight, so how can you think that you need more compensation now that it's losing its importance?
How does lowering exp help these first timers in the slightest? I'm the one with the money, with the missions already completed, with the genkais done and with the gear already. By speeding up leveling, if you intend to stay with the best gear you are going to have to spend just as much time farming for it. This update helps my next jobs more than it helps you.
But that doesn't mean I think it's a good idea. Because I don't see anything wrong with the old exp requirements in the slightest bit.
But there is something important I'd like to say, and it's the fact that a few points I agreed were in fact good points... and of which is on the line of Cubswoo sarcastic example. And I'm being criticized here for saying "It's a good point" while not backing down from my original opinion.
It's not all cut and dry. Some good things will come out of it and some bad things. There are some good reasons for it and good reasons against it. I am merely saying there are more reasons against it than for.it.
What's with this? I've responded to every point I can find sensible enough to respond to. I can't respond to posts that don't make sense. Sorry. But I believe if you check my sig we can find you thinking you're above it all too much to respond to any of my points without a crowbar to your mouth.
But yea I love it how out of all the elitism I'm accussed of you call yourself "better people". It's pretty fucking snobby if you ask me.
But I think it's pretty funny... this whole time I've been repeating one question no one will answer while accusing me of ignoring people. If this update happened, but they called it level 70 as the max level, would you all be for it?
And I know you're not dancing in the streets, or however you want to describe it, and I never said it benefits you guys more than me anyway. So let's just cut that crap for a second and stop changing the focus around.
And lastly... to Konartist again.
You really just are fucking stupid. Guess what {Hot Shot}. It's an opinion. We are arguing opinions. There is no right or wrong. This isn't a math equation. This isn't a kind of debate where someone says "oh no he didn't voke" "well then how come he has hate" sort of thing where obviously one answer is true. It's an opinion of if someone is good or bad and therefore as long as I use good logic(I do, you don't) I can't be proven wrong.
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If the question is - is this fair. The answer is no. If the question is, is there any compensation expected... honestly, I don't expect a bit, and, I said in the beginning why I know it's impossible, as they specifically said anyway that people who are past a level get brought down to @1. You can cite all the historic examples of unfairness you want, that doesn't mean this is fair. And since page 2, I haven't evne been arguing about fairness. I've been arguing about if it's a benefit or not.
I'm not pissed off actually about the change. I think it's unfair, as said earlier, and I think it's a bad move, as I've said often, but I'm not angry about it. The anger by me you've seen at this post, is based purely on arguments that are changing my own points to better fit their own personal rants.
Is this not the point I've been making? 75 is losing weight and value by this change. Obviously the develoipers think so, because they're the ones making the change. So the only point I can deduce out of this is that you think it's just because the devlopers want to do it? If so, I don't think by that logic we have the right to complain about anything in the game at all.
All I want to say is Cubs your my new role model :wink:
The whole "Wah Dynamis is only limited to 2 times a week!" thing is starting to grate my nerves. The only reason it's limited to two times, is because there aren't more shells doing them on other days. Yes, 1 player can only enter a Dynamis Area twice every week, but what about the others? People are already sitting out on Dynamises because of too much participation. Another shell springing up to accomodate those left overs isn't a bad thing that needs to be avoided. It introduces more currency into the game, faster Relic 3/4 Accomplishing, and perhaps a decrease in the standard 5-6k pricing of the 1 Value currencies, and respective 600k 100 Valued. Dynamis is why I welcome this change, but the other activities is why I think it's not going to fly so well.
Firestreak, I know where you are coming from, and correct me if I am wrong, your point is simply:
You were fine with the old requirement and think the new requirement lessens the value of any 75 character you or anyone else gets post patch.
This I see is completely reasonable, its true, after the patch, a little bit less time will be needed to get to 75. However, in the 20+ pages this thread has gone on, you are sounding more and more whiny and elitist.
I am not going to decend into name calling as a few people have in this thread, but by carrying on you are not helping yourself Firestreak. The impression that you are giving is of a sense that you believe you and other pre patch 75's are a tier above us lower and (in the future) post patch 75's.
There are other contradicting statements that have been banded round by both sides of the argument, so I put that down to both sides passion over the subject, but this image of self superiority that you have created for yourself is what people seem to be taking offence at.
Elemmire, you say that you are annoyed because you wont get back the extra time and effort you put in to get to 75 that post patch people won't have to. This brings me to question, why did you get to 75?
Was it a means to an end, so you could do end game content? If so, surely you should be happy that you still have the end and can do that end game content.
Was it for the sense of completing your job? If so, surely you should be content, happy and proud that you managed to achieve it and finish your job, not an easy task for anyone.
Or was it for the status symbol of being a 75? In this case I can see why you would be annoyed. By lowering the requirement, the value of that status symbol has been reduced slightly. If this reason is the case, I feel slightly sad for you as I feel the other 2 reasons are much better ones for wanting to reach 75.
All in all, I am happy about this patch, as I suspect most people under 75 are. Sure, I am worried about finding idiots at a bit higher levels than I was expecting to, but it will let me experience the higher level content (storlines/quests/missions) that I play this game for, faster than I would have before. Not that much faster mind you, but a bit faster, compared to the long stony road I had waiting for me past 50 pre patch.
Sorry for the essay (and any typing mistakes
)
You were fine with the old requirement and think the new requirement lessens the value of any 75 character you or anyone else gets post patch.
This I see is completely reasonable, its true, after the patch, a little bit less time will be needed to get to 75. However, in the 20+ pages this thread has gone on, you are sounding more and more whiny and elitist.
I am not going to decend into name calling as a few people have in this thread, but by carrying on you are not helping yourself Firestreak. The impression that you are giving is of a sense that you believe you and other pre patch 75's are a tier above us lower and (in the future) post patch 75's.
There are other contradicting statements that have been banded round by both sides of the argument, so I put that down to both sides passion over the subject, but this image of self superiority that you have created for yourself is what people seem to be taking offence at.
Elemmire, you say that you are annoyed because you wont get back the extra time and effort you put in to get to 75 that post patch people won't have to. This brings me to question, why did you get to 75?
Was it a means to an end, so you could do end game content? If so, surely you should be happy that you still have the end and can do that end game content.
Was it for the sense of completing your job? If so, surely you should be content, happy and proud that you managed to achieve it and finish your job, not an easy task for anyone.
Or was it for the status symbol of being a 75? In this case I can see why you would be annoyed. By lowering the requirement, the value of that status symbol has been reduced slightly. If this reason is the case, I feel slightly sad for you as I feel the other 2 reasons are much better ones for wanting to reach 75.
All in all, I am happy about this patch, as I suspect most people under 75 are. Sure, I am worried about finding idiots at a bit higher levels than I was expecting to, but it will let me experience the higher level content (storlines/quests/missions) that I play this game for, faster than I would have before. Not that much faster mind you, but a bit faster, compared to the long stony road I had waiting for me past 50 pre patch.
Sorry for the essay (and any typing mistakes
)
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Experience is the thing you have left when everything else is gone.
I agree mostly. I think the thought process is that we are all going to want to go Saturday night and it will be a big mess... but with a little cooperationg different shells could go to dynamis simultaneously just by hitting up different cities. It's not unlimited but I can't imagine so many high levels at the same time that all the dynamis will get filled up simultaneously.
And to respond to Cubswoo, just a little thought I've had about that example. Obviously by a price lowering it might feel like you got a worse deal(yes I know you're being sarcastic). I just feel that one is sort of an aspect of life being unfair(obviously not actually unfair as there was the enjoyment of playing for 2 years given to us) and the other is more like a sportmanship thing. It would be like if in football they changed all the yard lines so that more touchdowns would be scored every game. And then all the old records were creamed by all the new records. You want as a sports enthusisst want to try caring about how many yards were ran/thrown per game than points.
If you can understand my logic... it's a little... crazy..
And to respond to Cubswoo, just a little thought I've had about that example. Obviously by a price lowering it might feel like you got a worse deal(yes I know you're being sarcastic). I just feel that one is sort of an aspect of life being unfair(obviously not actually unfair as there was the enjoyment of playing for 2 years given to us) and the other is more like a sportmanship thing. It would be like if in football they changed all the yard lines so that more touchdowns would be scored every game. And then all the old records were creamed by all the new records. You want as a sports enthusisst want to try caring about how many yards were ran/thrown per game than points.
If you can understand my logic... it's a little... crazy..
All I have to say is, i really do try my best to give everyone the same respect as they do me. If people are calling me elitist, or they are saying I'm whining and ignoring my posts I find it a natural response to respond to them equalliy disrespectfully. I do have a bit of a natural ability to piss people off, but I think it's notable that the people who have been arguing to me with respect have had it returned.
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It's completely fair to reduce the numerical effort it takes to get to 75. 75 isn't worth what it used to be--I think we can all agree on that. It makes no sense to make players pay the same amount for an asset that is consistently depreciating in value. Old players that weren't frontier players got more bang for their buck once they reached the top. And the frontier players often got ridiculous tangible bang for being clueless.
Also keep in mind that numerical effort is only a drop in the bucket that is total leveling effort. If you're on every night, you're set. You find 5 others who are the same, and boom. You're in a static with a B-line to the next genkai or beyond. If you're on sporadically, you're screwed. You're stuck with the pickup parties, where the warriors ask you to open with shadowstitch because they have a hardon for closing skillchains, and people have to learn your name all over again once you put your flag back up.
Thus, there is so much more "unfair" than mechanics and numbers can ever impose. Some people really do work OVER twice as hard in getting to 75. Fair or unfair have nothing to do with it at that point. It is merely consequences of a reality that cannot be escaped. The asset is depreciating. The effort to obtain said asset must correct. This is the right move.
Also keep in mind that numerical effort is only a drop in the bucket that is total leveling effort. If you're on every night, you're set. You find 5 others who are the same, and boom. You're in a static with a B-line to the next genkai or beyond. If you're on sporadically, you're screwed. You're stuck with the pickup parties, where the warriors ask you to open with shadowstitch because they have a hardon for closing skillchains, and people have to learn your name all over again once you put your flag back up.
Thus, there is so much more "unfair" than mechanics and numbers can ever impose. Some people really do work OVER twice as hard in getting to 75. Fair or unfair have nothing to do with it at that point. It is merely consequences of a reality that cannot be escaped. The asset is depreciating. The effort to obtain said asset must correct. This is the right move.
You are right from a financial point of view, this means there's less incentive for a new player to start the game, if as we agree this is a measure of status symbol. I would never start playing a MMOPRG myself unless I got in on the ground floor, because I love being there first, and I love not knowing. I love being one of the guys writing guides for BLM cause I did it first, setting my own standards.
On the other hand. I hated started out not knowing what to do. People intend to do a quest now, and it's on Allazham handily for them. You don't have to spend 10 tries on a BC getting wiped before you figure out what to do. And you don't have to get AF in an 18 man alliance of 50-55s where half the members need a key as well and you get killed constantly despite the mass of people with you.
People wasted many days if they started in Windurst because they had no clue there was a boat between Bubu and VD. I leveled to 23 before going to Jeuno, cause I had no clue where to go.
And when I was high level, when I really felt like leveling, I usually couldn't... unless other people my level were online(which wasn't too damn common).
There are ups and downs to being the first generation, people just usually don't gloat too much about losing 30k exp getting their AF done.
On the other hand. I hated started out not knowing what to do. People intend to do a quest now, and it's on Allazham handily for them. You don't have to spend 10 tries on a BC getting wiped before you figure out what to do. And you don't have to get AF in an 18 man alliance of 50-55s where half the members need a key as well and you get killed constantly despite the mass of people with you.
People wasted many days if they started in Windurst because they had no clue there was a boat between Bubu and VD. I leveled to 23 before going to Jeuno, cause I had no clue where to go.
And when I was high level, when I really felt like leveling, I usually couldn't... unless other people my level were online(which wasn't too damn common).
There are ups and downs to being the first generation, people just usually don't gloat too much about losing 30k exp getting their AF done.
Peregrine said:
The thing is, it's already easier to get to 75 than it was say, preCoP. What with Seer's Gear helping out MP Regeneration, a slew of new weapons that are slightly better than other weapons the same level(Hi Harpe,) new areas to exp in for the upper-mid game. As well as the fabled 250 exp/mob people like to keep bringing up, even though it's not realistic in most parties, it's still there.
It's always been getting easier through the means of equipment. Most of you haven't leveled through the game when the elemental staves didn't exist. A reduction in the total required is not necessary. I do welcome the reduction in exp lost from being KO'd though.
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Firestreak said:
This is a really, really bad example, because sports change ALL THE TIME, normally in favor of more scoring.
Baseball: Changed the distance and height of the pitcher's mound to give hitters a better eye on the baseball. Pitchers can no longer go to the mouth on the mound. The strike zone gets narrower and narrower as the years go on, so pitchers have to throw right down the middle to get strikes.
Basketball: The shot clock, the backcourt violation, the three-point line, three-second violations for the defense, loose enforcement of traveling and strict enforcement of hand-checking.
Football: Defensive backs can no longer initiate contact with a reciever after five yards, leading to more open passing games.
Hockey: When/if the NHL comes back, they have a 4-on-4 overtime period, smaller goalie pads and wider nets waiting, all to help increase scoring.
And remember Roger Maris? He broke Babe Ruth's record back in the 60's, and even after his death they put an asterisk next to his name because he had more games in the season with which to hit home runs. Was that fair? Absolutely not. Just because 2 people play a game with 2 different sets of rules doesn't mean you need to qualify person 2's accomplishment with "Well, you played in THIS era, and I played in THAT era." Things change, and you can either accept the change or be stuck pining for a past that the people who make the rules decided needed to be adapted.
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The same discussion happened with the first person shooter; "AA"
They use the Honor system. It's like a level but more of a prestige
thing. It went from 0-100.
There was a similar change and also similar following discussions.
Everything mellowed out and the discussions ended.
I realize it's different with FFXI, but I was just trying to give you
an example of something similar. This will blow-over and be
history.
edit: I forgot to mention that in America's Army, people LOST levels
due to the xp changes. At least you aren't loosing levels!!!
They use the Honor system. It's like a level but more of a prestige
thing. It went from 0-100.
There was a similar change and also similar following discussions.
Everything mellowed out and the discussions ended.
I realize it's different with FFXI, but I was just trying to give you
an example of something similar. This will blow-over and be
history.
edit: I forgot to mention that in America's Army, people LOST levels
due to the xp changes. At least you aren't loosing levels!!!