NIN and RNG gimping: SE strikes again.

Mokk said:
wow, other DDs might get invs more often ... so sad for rngs :roll:
Cry me a river, build a bridge, and get the hell over it. the update's not even in yet and people are going ballistic ...
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Couldn't have said it any better. That made me chuckle for some reason >.> :lol:
 
I only skimmed over the last 3 pages, seeing as how the topic seemed to jump on and off the original post. But food for thought on the NIN nerf crap.

For the people who have pointed out that now its just "even" between NIN and PLD tanks, I don't think thats completely what you call even. I am a 72 NIN now, and I'll probably be one of the first to admit that PLDs hold hate better then NINs. Even IF they lost enmity while taking dmg, they still have plenty of free, yes FREE, mp to boost thier enmity and health back up with cures. Everything a PLD has to hold and gain hate is free to them, and they have more ways to gain hate. Thats obvious by the fact they dont really need a thf to do thier job successfully. I'm not saying I need one either, but I chose to have one in my parties because its just safer for everyone.

Yeah, I'm bitter. I've spent millions leveling a job that I love only to get to end game and get tossed aside for PLDs to gods and hnms. I've done my best and now I finally, after 2 years of exp parties that made me want to pull out my hair, get past 70, only to get my job gimped.

Sure we're getting stacks of tools but uh, a stack of hojo tools will cost 300K+ and last maybe 1-1 1/2 weeks of staticing. Not to mention that if its an item stack (like quivers) someone is bound to jack up the price even more on us.

Either way the development team is being idiotic in my opinion. Sure I'm bitter, I think probably any Ninja that is finally getting to the peek of the job or been there for a while will be. There are plenty of bad ninja's out there and maybe this is an attempt to get rid of the ones that dont put the effort into thier equipment and tools that they should. But at the same time lets just fuck over anyone who decided to do a good job playing the role of ninja. If its a minimal change it'll mean more ninjutsu spam and more money. If its a drastic one.. well .. Drastic change will mean no HNM's, few parties, and any chance at doing anything remotely fun gone. Hell, PLDs already get gods and I dont get to do a damn thing end game, now they may be taking away what few things I do get to do.

Have nothing against paladins but I'd like to see how happy they'd be if they had to dish out money for each cure they had to do lol. What possible reason would they have for getting rid of 1 of the 2 tanks in game?? Sure there are WARs but most dont even want to tank past the jungle and turn to DD'ers. /sigh.. It'd be nice if they put reasons to thier actions instead of letting us all debate as to why they do seemingly stupid things.

I'd like to say again this isnt anything against plds or anything like that, just refering to plds vs nins and why I dont like the whole losing hate for losing a shadow complex. If they wanted to make it even they'd give us TP for losing a shadow too =P
 
Levelling the playing field for damage dealers is a good thing, I think. I just think SE should boost rather than nerf. Boosting makes players happy. Nerfing makes people angry. Both accomplish the same goal in the end.

"Paladins and Warrior tanks will lose LESS hate when hit by a mob. Monks, Dragoons, Warriors, Thieves, Samurai and Dark Knights will deal more damage against EXP mobs. Those same Damage Dealers will suffer a lesser penalty against IT++++++++++++++++ mobs."

That would serve the same purpose as nerfing ninja and rangers. It's essentially the same effect, only dealt with oppositely. It'd also make Paladins, Monks, Dragoons, Warriors, Thieves, Samurai and Dark Knights VERY happy. Where's the loss for SE? Making a good 70% of your player base love you must be good for money.
 
Pompidou said:
Levelling the playing field for damage dealers is a good thing, I think. I just think SE should boost rather than nerf. Boosting makes players happy. Nerfing makes people angry. Both accomplish the same goal in the end.

"Paladins and Warrior tanks will lose LESS hate when hit by a mob. Monks, Dragoons, Warriors, Thieves, Samurai and Dark Knights will deal more damage against EXP mobs. Those same Damage Dealers will suffer a lesser penalty against IT++++++++++++++++ mobs."

That would serve the same purpose as nerfing ninja and rangers. It's essentially the same effect, only dealt with oppositely. It'd also make Paladins, Monks, Dragoons, Warriors, Thieves, Samurai and Dark Knights VERY happy. Where's the loss for SE? Making a good 70% of your player base love you must be good for money.
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The thing is, if they buff other DDs, it doesn't necessarily fix anything.

Infact, it can break things further by making things trivialized a bit. It's not that other DDs were broken for being weaker* than Rangers, it was infact that Rangers were broken, thus causing them to be stronger* than the other DDs. Face it, ranged attacks were designed entirely wrong, when it comes to damage drop off vs. higher level monsters.

*Entirely subjective based on player-to-player basis
 
In all honesty i dont think this will affect the ability of a NInja to tank at all. It just brings more dependency (is that a word?) on thieves. ANd i thank S-E for this, because finding a party with thf at higher levels just gets stupid.

As far as RNG being nerfed..... It says the distance becomes a factor to the damage, which seems to reveal that the closer you are, the more damage you do. So really if you think about it, how far really are rangers from the rest of the party in the first place to do crap damage? Now for the fact that RNG will do less damage to certain mobs for the same price for ranged weapons....well...uhh. :roll:

I doubt its gonna be enough that RNG will stop getting invites.
Really both the nin and rng updates are helping rangers in the fact that Rangers wont get as much hate anymore and stop complaining that tanks cant keep hate and start blaming everyone else for their deaths. At least thats what i believe.

Everyone seems to be freaking out when they dont even know how much the damage is gonna be reduced. I think the fact that as a RNG i will get much less hate, i wont have to worry about spamming ranged attacks anymore. Comon guys think more positively! :D
 
I wouldnt call people posting they're opinions on the subject and debating how things could and could not be, freaking out. Only people saying that is ones that arent affected lol.

we wouldnt have to do this if SE would give specific details and reasons behind they're actions o_O Vague details mean people come up with hypothetical (sp) conclusions on what if basis's. Its just brainstorming to figure out what will happen.
 
I'm sure rangers will still deal damage exponentially higher than other DD's. It seems like SE is putting the RANGE back in RANGEr. It'll slow down TP gain, so that Samurai, the TP specialist, will in fact be a TP specialist again. Now, if they could make whms cure better than /whms, all would be well, in Vanadiel.
 
Tyrath said:
Veli said:
No more debating about this:

BLM>RNG
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So...Blm nerf anyone? :lol:
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Blm was born with it's "everything else but Magic Ability" Nerfed. There are certain mobs that rate Too Weak that I can't solo.

Really and truely, I see nothing wrong with eiter of the nerfs, and I Just spent 300k on the first 20 lvls of ranger, and now I'm bout to lvl Ninja to 12 (it's at 10 now) and go quest utsusemi.

SE does thing they way they feel because they have every right too. They didn't do this to piss anyone off. This is a game, polotics like those of the real world hold no meaning within. They are trying to make the game work like it's meant to, without nin being a tank (cause 90% of them do indeed suck at it), and without ranger building up more Hate from landing Barrage->Sidewinder/Slugshot than Larry Flint would get from fucking a Goat on the Front lawn of the Vatican.
 
If they wanted ninjas to stop tanking, they would just increase cast time on shadows. They already did this once after they found out ninjas were running amok where no one realized they might. The dev. team balanced it just enough to make it a little tactical, then left it be for a while. They even gave ninjas some new armor that looked to be tankworthy for good measure. When they still weren't happy with their unintended new tanks, they let agas blow all shadows (at least i think this was this update along with:), and added mob skills that took more than one shadow. They probably still aren't totally happy with ninja tank balance, as well as some of the things people sub ninja for, so now comes along a hate nerf.

If they wanted ninja tanks dead, ninja tanks would be dead and buried like the dragoon pentathrust and monk's multi-hit/highdelay exploit. Ninja tanks aren't going anywhere. Something is simply not right about right about a ninja taking no damage and thus losing no hate via anger depletion. There are ways to make yourself a better blink tanker that most ninjas have not implemented, because it's not been necessary. SE gave you plenty of new enmity gear to make up for this practical and fair nerfing. Swap it in for provokes and you're just like you always were. Maybe even a little better for it.
 
according to every endgame parser i've ever looked at during XP and on gods RNG's have blown blm's out of the water. Example RNG's did 12000 damage to kirin while BLM's did a modest 4000, same number of each.
 
The only one i see crying over RNG-nerfs, are RNG's themselves,
who are afraid of beeing pushed of their pedistal and to be forced to
join the rest of quetzalcoatl.
 
it's understandable why RNG's are crying nerf in my opinion...we pay damn good money for our XP, alot more than another other job will spend on the trek from 1 to 75 (except maybe NIN)
 
Im pretty sure any other job would pay the same amount of
money to get the boost you get out of it, had they been given
the option. But they arent. So they are forced to the back of the
line. Hence the rngs needs to be nerfed. Because if not, pretty soon
RNG is gonna be the only viable melee job besides tanks. And that
would kinda kill the game in my opinion.
 
And yes, im aware that instead of nerfing rng, they could boost
the other melee jobs. But im pretty damn sure we would have the
rng's crying anyway, because instead of them beeing pushed off
their pedistal then, the others would climb up and join them.
 
Still is another challange that we are given, everyone whines and/or praises it now, yet a few weeks (months tops) people will understand and get used to it. They Nerf Nin before, with the shadows unabling to stop Aoe, and everyone complained. Now everyone is used to that and no real complains are made.
If this game is simply too hard for most, other "great" games exisit. This is just something some people are gonna want to master and be proud of. The line of a "good" nin and a "gimp" nin with be a lot thicker. As for the rng, i'm fairly sure the differeance will hardly be noticable. I'm also sure, it'll feel more "realistic" once you pin down how the system works.
 
Way I see it, if what you all say is true, this update wont gimp ninjas it'll just make them lots better.

If you require ninjas to damange and enfeeble the mob more to keep hate it'll be better for the party, and "require" ninja players to do the the "full" job. This will make it harder to play ninjas but will make them a benefit to the party so much more since more people will come to parties fully equiped because if they don't they'll certainly be gimped ninjas.

time will tell...
 
Just thought I would crunch some numbers for all you people saying Ranger is so expensive and they deserve to be overpowered... and people showing pity for them but then turning around and saying Ninja's should of expected to pay a lot of money to play their job...

Lets break down how much it costs a Ninja to play their job using all their tools in an XP PT.

Ninjitsu cost per stack (99)
Jusatsu 20k
Sairyu-ran 10k
Kaginawa 25k
Kodoku 8k
Mizu-deppo 8k
Hiraishin 10k
Mikabishi 10k
Kawahori-ogi 12k
Tsurara 4k
Uchitake 13k
Shihei 8k

A good Lv75 party with no downtime can do about 6 chains per hour so thats 30 mobs... so lets say your Ninja joins your party that kills 99 Decorative Weapons in sky over the course of 3hours. And because you don't want a gimped Ninja that doesn't have 30239 pieces of armor to swap in and out and every piece of Ninjitsu you can buy this little package you invited does it all.

So how much does our Ninja use in 3hours? Well lets just add up all the Ninjitsu not including Shihei then add Shihei x5 to the mix because we're gonna use 5 per mob (those weapons love to spam that AOE).

Total = 160k

Add half a stack Squid Sushi because you cant expect your uber Ninja to go without food and you come out with a cool 170k for 3hrs worth of experience that may or may not even be that great.

So please get over the whole Rangers spend a lot of money and should be spared act and stop telling Ninja's how to play their job, how they should be playing their job and how they will need to play their job in the future to get a party.

No job should require the player to spend exorbrant amounts of money just to function properly. A NIN SHOULD be able to tank just fine using the bare necessesity (Utsusemi and Debuffs). And a RNG SHOULD be able to DD just fine using OBow and Holy Bolts.

Sure a RNG can use Gun and Silver Bullets and sure a NIN can use every elemental ninjitsu but these are just there to enhance your job not complete it imo...

PS: Normally I dont defend the poorer players playing RNG and NIN but personally even I very rarely have all 6 elemental ninjitsu's on me but 95% of the time I have at least 3 and all the debuffs and as it is now I almost never need to spam them to keep hate... and I like it that way as Im sure everyone else does that plays the job... who the hell wants to be REQUIRED to spend over 55k an hour to get Limit Points in any job because SE decides that they need to take even more money out of the economy they fucked up in the first place!
 
I don't see this as a paticularly bad thing. If Ninja's have more trouble holding hate then people will be more apt to pair them with jobs that compliment their abilities. Like Thieves :P

**Although I can see this as also being a bad thing, as Rangers can now lose hate when they lose shadows? O_o**

For example:

Your party has a Ninja, a Red Mage, and a Thief. Now between a Ranger and a Dragoon lfg who do you choose?

Ranger, ranger, ranger, ranger... am I the only one who can see a problem with this?

Now that you have your Ninja, Red Mage, Thief, and Ranger you can add a Black Mage or a Summoner?

Black Mage of course.

So now you have a party of Ninja, Ranger, Thief, Black Mage, and Red Mage. Get a sixth and there ya go.

Then the party with the Paladin will also leave out the Dragoon and the Summoner for a White Mage, Warrior, and a Dark Knight.

So you have RDM, BLM, WHM, THF, NIN, PLD, WAR, DRK, RNG all with a party and the DRG and SMN who never had a chance?

Thank you in advance if this achieves what I hope SE. I've been sick and tired of not being able to party with the best trick partner in the game because people adore Rangers in their overpowered glory.

Might also help me with invites as well...

/salute to the Dragoons.
 
Neosquall; yes 6th arrow, that was a typo

not to mention they gave rangers access to all of the god equipment at 75 (osode, haidate, and kote namely), and access to w.hands & w.legs

rng was a job they made, from top to bottom, very powerful

oh and karihkinz, NIN > PLD tank in EXP party, no question in my mind, coming from a WAR standpoint, most PLD's seem to not understand how a thief fits into the pt setup and they almost always gimp the SC by going overboard with hate

with a NIN tank, hate can be more freeflowing, bouncing back and forth between me and the NIN, making opening the SC for myself much easier. i will always party with a NIN tank before a PLD, just my personal preference, just because SE never intended NIN to be a tank job from the start doesn't mean they haven't added gear to the game that allows them to do exactly that, to tank and be damn good at it
 
Neosquall; yes 6th arrow, that was a typo

not to mention they gave rangers access to all of the god equipment at 75 (osode, haidate, and kote namely), and access to w.hands & w.legs

rng was a job they made, from top to bottom, very powerful

oh and karihkinz, NIN > PLD tank in EXP party, no question in my mind, coming from a WAR standpoint, most PLD's seem to not understand how a thief fits into the pt setup and they almost always gimp the SC by going overboard with hate

with a NIN tank, hate can be more freeflowing, bouncing back and forth between me and the NIN, making opening the SC for myself much easier. i will always party with a NIN tank before a PLD, just my personal preference, just because SE never intended NIN to be a tank job from the start doesn't mean they haven't added gear to the game that allows them to do exactly that, to tank and be damn good at it
 
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