CubsWoo said:
Count me in as some kind of RNG "nerf" (if you can call it that) being a not-so-bad thing. Leveling RNG to 30 I've had pulls where my first arrow hit was strong enough to keep hate on me - after a Provoke from the PLD. I've basically tanked the entire Jungle and it's sort of a pain in the ass. Might have some God/HNM fight issues, but I'd imagine this isn't some major reduction, and might even increase their damage if they find a sweet spot distance.
As for the Utsusemi issue, it spells the end of BAD NINs. Ones that only use Utsusemi to hold hate. Get buyin' those quivers of Hojo, Kurayami, Jubaku, and elemental tools, folks.
I agree with all of that besides the last paragraph. I am an optimist but in this case I am very realistic. Its not that end of bad ninja, but the creation of worse ninja. People think ninjas are cool and play it but don't realize the gil required to play as a competent ninja and after the update, they aren't going to be any less cheaper.
MajorHavoc said:
NIN tanks will just have to USE their other tools to control hate. With 30 seconds recast for Ichi and 50 seconds for Ni, between each spell, they shouldn't have a hard time holding hate at all. Each of the NIN's tools (with the exception of Tonko and Utsusemi) will generate more hate. With these tools at their disposal, I wonder why more NIN's don't use them now.
Scenario:
Puller returns with the mob. NIN tank has Utsusemi up. NIN Provokes (Hate spike), before the last shadow is absorbed they can cast Kurayami (Hate spike). The enemy is blinded, the NIN can Utsusemi again and Provoke (Hate spike). Hojo (Hate spike), Dokumori (Hate spike), Jubaku (Hate spike)... All the elemental spells... You guessed it, HATE SPIKE!
Add this to all the the constant attacks by dual wield, frequent Weapon skill attacks and +Emnity gear, there shouldn't be a NIN that could lose hate for very long.
As a PLD, I can only wish I had this many tricks up my sleeve. Not to mention the fact that since these are all from "tools" and not MP, there is no waiting/resting for MP to regenerate. So, yeah, I'd say a NIN could still tank.
In agreement there. Ninjas will need to use ALL their tools to keep hate now instead of being solely reliant on a few or even just Utsusemi. I doubt all elemental spells will be necessary but atleast all the dubuffs.
Peregrine said:
I was surprised that the developers chose to try to correct imbalance by weakening rangers instead of improving meleers. I guess they think they've made partying easy enough. They probably have.
And to cater it to the flameboard, since a casual discussion has no place here:
Stop whining if you're a ninja. 95% of ninjas don't even have an enmity swap-in set, while everyone expects thieves to carry around 3-4 full sets of equipment. Thieves are considered gimp if they don't. Mages are considered gimp if they don't. Ninjas shouldn't be immune. Time to step down from the pedestal that SE accidentally put you on and join the real game. Ninjas are the best traditional xp party tanks in the game, hands-down. It's time they earned it with at least a little work. And if you invite a ninja without a hate controller, you really don't belong in this discussion or in the pt-leader position in the first place.
It's the same case for rangers. There are too many gimps getting the royal treatment when everyone knows that the only reason most people who play ranger are not ignored endgame is because they play an imbalanced job that can deal damage. Maybe in some small insignificant way rangers might have to try to be good in order to be good now. For years, we've all known that gil is not an adequate price to pay for how powerful rangers are. It's why food is 80k a stack. A meleer could spend more on equipment and food than a ranger spends on equipment and arrows, and they still wouldn't be as powerful. That's imbalance.
So for Ninjas and Rangers, maybe it's about time you stepped up to the standards already in place for others. Since you didn't do it yourselves, maybe an update will force it!
Yeah, something along those lines.
Peregrine said:
Don't be in a party where there's no hate controller to back up the ninja. People who whine that nins can never keep hate while refusing to invite anyone with trick attack to help out are best babysat under the protection of a paladin. If you're too elite to invite a hate controller, that's not the ninja's problem, so don't blame them for something you screwed up on. If the ninja refuses a hate controller, only then does it become their problem. With a hate controller, hate is never an issue. Now the nin may die because they can't work their shadows, but the mob will be focused on them and only them. It might require you to gamble that you have both a competent nin and a competent hate controller, but I can guarantee that those odds are better than getting an excellent nin alone.
I personally use debilitator tools when I'm on my nin. I like how utterly incompetent mobs become when they all stick, but a ninja who spends their off-time meleeing doesn't always have to be pegged as gimp. Just invite a hate controller. Spamming elementals and debilitators at level 60 does little to aid the win but increase hate. A hate controller can do that with a flip of their wrist, and allow the nin to better aid the party with damage dealt.
Hopefully this update will convince elitist ninjas that even they need help. You should not invite ninjas to tank without trick attack in the party. And if people are still dumb enough to invite a ninja and then whine when they can't keep hate by themselves, that's their problem. It always has been. Yes, a ninja can throw gil at something and keep better hate. But even the best ninja pales in comparison to an average ninja winged by an average hate controller.
In agreement there again. Actually, pretty much everything Peregrine said about a ninja needing a hate modifier is correct. The more hate the tank has or can build up, the more damage output the other party members can do without taking hate. This is a good thing and I never understood why people cannot grasp this. A good SATA + WS + SC and the blm's MB will not turn the mob (atleast in my experience thus far) and neither will the ranger's Barrage.
Karihkinz said:
For the people who have pointed out that now its just "even" between NIN and PLD tanks, I don't think thats completely what you call even. I am a 72 NIN now, and I'll probably be one of the first to admit that PLDs hold hate better then NINs. Even IF they lost enmity while taking dmg, they still have plenty of free, yes FREE, mp to boost thier enmity and health back up with cures. Everything a PLD has to hold and gain hate is free to them, and they have more ways to gain hate. Thats obvious by the fact they dont really need a thf to do thier job successfully. I'm not saying I need one either, but I chose to have one in my parties because its just safer for everyone.
Yes MP is free. Paladins do not need to pay anyone, unless they spend gil on drinks or ethers, to ragain their mp. However, do not forget paladins have their downsides as well. They need to rest their mp all the time. I've never seen a ninja rest in a party EVER. The whm has to constantly heal a paladin as well and they too must rest. This slows down the experience and often inhibits further chains. A ninja can avoid this because they do not need to rest. So really its a choice between spending gil so you don't need to rest or spending time to rest and slower experience. I say slower experience because I find exp with a ninja is slightly higher in almost all cases. This is not to say ninjas get better experience but I have never seen an optimal party for either yet.
Ithenas said:
according to every endgame parser i've ever looked at during XP and on gods RNG's have blown blm's out of the water. Example RNG's did 12000 damage to kirin while BLM's did a modest 4000, same number of each.
Apples and oranges. Last time I checked, RNG's don't have down time. Parsers only tally information, but you still need to analyze it first for useful information.
As many of you can tell I welcome the "nerf" although I am not exactly happy about the ninja but more so about the ranger. Rangers are too strong. Period. I have been leveling my thief recently and I noticed it first hand. Had a party setup with rng, brd, thf (me) and the rest does not matter. I ate sushi, had +28 acc in equip, +20 dex (more for SATA) and bard acc songs. I missed maybe 1-2 times per mob. The ranger never missed and even if he did, it mattered very little. Every time, the ranger would beat me to 100 tp. It wasn't even close. Ranger can get anywhere from ~160-200 tp in the time it takes me to get 100. Why? Because they have 12+ tp per arrow and 5 tp per weapon and they have dual wield as well. My bet is SE will force the rangers to stand far enough away not be able to hit a mob with their non-ranged weapons to lessen tp gain.
Rangers want to come here and complain they don't need nerfing. Take a look at all your equip. When was the last time you saw some melee with as much acc as you do r.acc? I bet Kurei does, but he spent millions more than I bet any ranger did. You get an ability, barrage, thats an extra attack which does a lot of damge. You get traits to increase your accuracy so when you equip rings, you can still land your main weapons. You get another ability to increase your ranged accuracy, sharpshoot. The only downside I have ever seen about ranger, is the expenditure of arrows which a smart ranger would curb by taking up woodworking or make a buddy with someone who has.
Those who want to argue instead of gimping rangers why not make other melees more powerful, think a little more about that. There is little in comparison to gimping one job versus modifying all other jobs. Subsequently by increasing all jobs you make experience parties easier, thus SE needs to improve mobs or lower experience from them. Which do you think is the smarter choice?
Its still too early to tell whether SE will make a huge change or not, but I think the change will be drastic to those who play the jobs. When SE gimped paladins by changing shield blocks to take partial damage instead of none, I was rather annoyed but I've dealt with it and moved on. I am sure given time rangers and ninjas will too.
On a side note: Before the shield block nerf, I was in a coffer key party with a 75 pld tanking EP and he blocked and parried ~90% of all attacks(I believe he capped both). It was amazing. Too bad for nerfs.
i'm sure that we will find out the ranges when the patch comes out.
