OHrly?

[Courtney]

That being said, that doesn't mean people in OH cheat. I don't cheat myself, I don't care who does cheat and who doesn't. I don't pay attention to it, I don't consider it my business.

I would have thought that being an officer of the shell (You are an officer, right?) that it would have been your business if your members were cheating...

Several of your members admitted to using cheats in Peregrine's thread. There were also comments that indicated it was pretty widespread, and that the officers were well aware of the practice.

 

[Uzor]

I would have thought that being an officer of the shell (You are an officer, right?) that it would have been your business if your members were cheating...

Several of your members admitted to using cheats in Peregrine's thread. There were also comments that indicated it was pretty widespread, and that the officers were well aware of the practice.

"Pretty widespread"? Mind quoting exactly who said that? Because its nowhere near widespread.

Either way, Firestreak have already said pretty much everything I would want to say.

 

[Nasya]

I think Ezekiel’s post sums up why some of my members got somewhat disgruntled over the PM conversation between Fire and Neo... It on top of the fact that some people in peregrine's thread justified using flee tools and POS tools and whatever else was talked about there (sorry, i have better things to do with my time than sort through 90 pages of that crap to find exactly what was said...) by saying, or inferring, that every HNM LS did... because we don't... and as ezi said we are proud of it.

Considering that using a tool of that sort is grounds for being kicked from our shell, if someone is accused of using one, even in private, it isn't something that they are going to take lightly; especially when that someone is one of the original members and leaders of the shell.

I understand why Alm choose to bring this up publicly, rather than through PMs, which probably would have been more appropriate. The indication in pere's thread that flee tools were commonly used were inclusive to us, and a few people felt that we should dispel them... make it clear that everyone does not in fact cheat in endgame... However, it would have been an overreaction, and so nothing was said... because the statement, while it included us, only did so in a broad sense. As soon a more specific statement that suggested we cheated was made, a reaction could be justified... and so here we are...

To answer Uzors question towards Courtney (I did read ~30 pages of that monster of a thread...) i think a good example of what she was talking about was posted by Farys on page 11 where he says that Kirin, Jailors, Bahamnut and DM were all done using speed hacks. Whether this is true on all accounts or not i do not know, but that is pretty large array of events to use a tool like that at... large enough that one could say the use of the tool was 'widespread'.

Regardless, I think this thread should die down now... Most everything that could be said on the topic has been... so, please stop posting.

 

[Tyrath]

"Pretty widespread"? Mind quoting exactly who said that? Because its nowhere near widespread.

Either way, Firestreak have already said pretty much everything I would want to say.

I've heard from friends within OH that nowadays "they cant kill a mandy without hacking." Obviously thats an exaggeration, but it sounds pretty widespread to me.

 

[Courtney]

"Pretty widespread"? Mind quoting exactly who said that? Because its nowhere near widespread.

How widespread is it then? You should be in a good position to let us now


But since you asked...

And then came the speedhack frenzy.
Kirin : speedhack
Jailers : speedhack while we got them down with 10ppl, they were speedhacking as Dowzer stated.
Bahamut : speedhacking... want a vid of that? I can post it when I get home.
ZM17 : speedhacking... I guess some of you were VERY eager to put their hands on those shiny new lil earrings!

I confirm OH cheats left and rights, I have seen ALL their officers and more [Fire excluded actually] use speed hack at one point or another: Sea jailers, Kirin, Bahamut, you name it.
Hell I've even witnessed it outside of shell yesterday, when one of them speed-hacked her way to Jorm camp right in front of me (invisible, thinking noone would know maybe).

maybe you should stop thinking this is RL and start playing it as a game. just a thought. you think we care if you say we are losers? haha people bought this game just like you and if they want to hack every fucking thing in the game then that is their business, and if you are jealous of that then thats too bad.

Stop giving me shit about a flee hack, flee hacks have been around for fucking ever, who the fuck cares. I will not admit to using a flee hack, i dont have to admit to it, if its that big of a deal to you then fucking call a GM

fuck you, call GM melbus all you want! im flee hacking right now as we speaking. im even jumping around the map and shit. i just made it to jorg in a record 1 sec. ME>you live with it.

Prophecy might have been sarcastic (It's hard to tell ) but as he was one of the people clearly hacking in Farys video (where your whole alliance must have seen them), he could have been serious as well..

The point of whether OH hacks or not was done to death in Peregrine's thread, and I don't want anything to do with starting that again. My question was only why an Officer of the shell would think that having members hacking at LS events would not be an Officer's business...

 

[Logxiix]

No it's not factual evidence when I say specifically, "I don't have any evidence." I think my entire position in the conversation I was having was lost on you.

Neo told me flat out right at the start that he respects and doesn't judge until he sees evidence, therefore within the context of our conversation I knew I wasn't going to make him start thinking about quitting the LS over this discussion. That's why I made a point to say there wasn't evidence.

I said simply to keep his eyes open. If there's no cheating going on, as you say, then why shouldn't he keep his eyes open? If he doesn't judge without evidence, and there's nothing to hide, what wrong could talking over it possibly do?

And if it's not true, why not clear it up with me? Have I in some way been attempting to injure you?

After reading through the PM's on our board, most of them were merely your own opinion of what you thought was going on inside the shell. But there were also statements you made that sounded like you had some clear cut evidence, and nowhere in your PM's did you specifically say "I don't have any evidence" nor did you imply that anywhere.

To quote one:

Well of 3 paladins, Almaut, Jamal and Masahiro, during early wyrm fights, Almaut would take adds and hyperspeed them around. Jamal has used some 3rd party programs, Masahiro is clean far as I know.

Please show me where you specifically said or implied that you didn't have any evidence? And don't try to justify this by saying I took it out of context, I am just simply quoting this piece of information to save you, and the rest of the people time from reading all the PM's.

But I see no reason whatsoever to follow Kaizen ppl around and take screens of videos, and I don't even know if anyone still does anything bad anymore. I just figure drama over it is pointless

That's about the closest I can come up with. If you wanted to keep out of the drama, you shouldn't have even started the conversation with neo. While having no evidence, you insisted to start the conversation with accusations to nameless people in our LS, who were later named, that cheated.

It's also funny you bring this up all the while everyone and their mother is reading about how your LS admits, and is proven to being cheaters. Trying to shift all the attention to another innocent LS to protect your own? When I say innocent, i'm not referring to little angels, just the fact that we don't cheat, period.

 

[quitita]

So therefore if you see someone doing it, go ahead and GM call them if it offends you.
.

Wow this doesnt seem like a bad idea....if you fuckers care so much why dont u just call a GM and they will take care of all our supposed "cheaters" problem. Just a thought. And I dont agree with people cheating to accomplish things in the game but i dont openly notice people cheating and im usually at most activities we do.

 

[Logxiix]

Wow this doesnt seem like a bad idea....if you fuckers care so much why dont u just call a GM and they will take care of all our supposed "cheaters" problem. Just a thought. And I dont agree with people cheating to accomplish things in the game but i dont openly notice people cheating and im usually at most activities we do.

I don't think you get the fact that it has been proven that members of your LS cheats, there is no "supposed" about it.

I don't think your seeing the big picture here. There will be a time when the cheaters are taken care of, this is more of a letting everyone know type of deal. Now that everyone knows, theres a better chance that you are caught by a GM. Get it?

 

[Firestreak]

After reading through the PM's on our board, most of them were merely your own opinion of what you thought was going on inside the shell. But there were also statements you made that sounded like you had some clear cut evidence, and nowhere in your PM's did you specifically say "I don't have any evidence" nor did you imply that anywhere.

To quote one:



Please show me where you specifically said or implied that you didn't have any evidence? And don't try to justify this by saying I took it out of context, I am just simply quoting this piece of information to save you, and the rest of the people time from reading all the PM's.



That's about the closest I can come up with. If you wanted to keep out of the drama, you shouldn't have even started the conversation with neo. While having no evidence, you insisted to start the conversation with accusations to nameless people in our LS, who were later named, that cheated.

It's also funny you bring this up all the while everyone and their mother is reading about how your LS admits, and is proven to being cheaters. Trying to shift all the attention to another innocent LS to protect your own? When I say innocent, i'm not referring to little angels, just the fact that we don't cheat, period.

Not only did I say I had no evidence, I said I hadn't even seen a thing in 4 months. We were talking based on opinion, which is clearly obvious if you read the entire conversation. As well, the only evidence I claimed to have was a screenshot which I do now and have offered to people via PM if they want it.

Of course it refers to a member no longer in Kaizen, and in my conversation I specifically cited almost all of the people I've seen do anything bad are no longer members.

Widespread is also an opinion, in reference to ourselves. Except for 2 incidents described, one of which was a fight I wasn't even present at, I haven't really heard of any eyewitness accounts that are anything except a lone member not at an LS event. When you consider the hundreds of fights OH does and has done this is not an epidemic.

Furthermore since like february I don't think I'd ever heard a rumor about hacking nor have I for the last few weeks, It appears to me like a few members tried it out almost entirely on their own and got scared and then stopped. Every fight I've been at we have had multiple wins on, and always we have had a different strategy than on our first win. As well constantly with mobs we have little experience on, I see our kiters get injured and require healing or killed regulary. I don't know about most of you, but if I was moving flee speed i don't think I'd ever get hurt.

But yeah don't really want another 90 pages of this here. Believe what you want to believe, keep your eyes open if you care, call GMs if you see anything that offends you. I'm just saying there's another side to this story. Nasya doesn't seem to want this to continue either, but if the old post is gonna spill onto here than it will keep going. So not really going to talk about OH on this post anymore.

 

[quitita]

yes i understand. since you guys "know" we cheat, why do u still post about us cheating? Reason i said who the fuck cares? If you do care then call a GM and ban them. Easy enough?

 

[quitita]

And no one in the ls says cheat to do this, or that. I havent seen anyone use flee tool since i started the ls in january.

 

[Firestreak]

And furthermore, I don't know what "officer" really means as far as OH is concerned, but I've never booted a member nor have I ever recruited a member. I don't enforce policy, the biggest thing I've ever done was at a time manage points.

If people did the things I've explained that i find immoral, I'd leave. In that respect I'm no different than Neo, I'd just leave. The discussion I was attempting to have in private was on what I consider moral or immoral.

-Yet again, now we're talking my own personal views. Not how I view policies should be set, not representative of OH here, but my thoughts nonetheless, which is where this whole thing started.

To this date, nobody has come up with what i deep a really good reason as to why flee tools is even bad in the first place. All I hear is, because it's against the rules. Now, according to Squaresoft, all forms of windower are against the rules. As well buying gil is against the rules. Considering the huge effect of gilbuying in our economy, I doubt anyone can tell me with a straight face they think none of their LS members have ever bought gil. As well I doubt anyone can tell me none of their LS members use windower.

Therefore when you consider cheating especially bad, just because it's cheating alone, I would have to say then, kick all your LS members who use windower, fraps or have ever suddenly become stinking rich with no explanation. All over this board I hear people say they hate gilsellers. Many of whom I am fairly certain are gilbuyers. People talk about how they hate them, but I've month after month those same people stand around in Jeuno while gilsellers are camping NMs.

Do I do anything about it? No not really. Am I going to name any names of who I think buys gil? Certainly not. I can't prove it, nobody can! If i could prove it, why would I want to? I don't even care! Hence I never would gather evidence, against Kaizen, I don't care! Kaizen claims they never hack. My opinion, until the start of this thread, had been that if I saw a Kaizen member hacking, they would have prefered me to ignore it, which is fine. Now I suppose they'd want me to send /tells, take pictures, call GMs and post it on the flameboard? I don't konw, they'll have to tell me. It's their LS, their business and as far as I'm concerned, their choice of policy.

Don't put my feet to the fire now, claiming I should aquire evidence before I make claims. I haven't been looking! I haven't made any claims, only stated my opinions, and specified there was no evidence - I haven't even been trying to collect any. I told Neo straight out, I hadn't even seen anything in 4 months, but if he's so anti cheating, keep his eyes open. That equates to my linkshell, his linkshell, all other linkshells.

If Kaizen wants their members to be totally clean, they should want their members to be watching each other closely(unless distraction somehow hinders their battle). We all know they have a good reputation, we all know I wasn't trying to hurt anyone's reputation, I was just talking about my personal opinions.

 

[Logxiix]

Not only did I say I had no evidence, I said I hadn't even seen a thing in 4 months. We were talking based on opinion, which is clearly obvious if you read the entire conversation. As well, the only evidence I claimed to have was a screenshot which I do now and have offered to people via PM if they want it.

Of course it refers to a member no longer in Kaizen, and in my conversation I specifically cited almost all of the people I've seen do anything bad are no longer members.

Widespread is also an opinion, in reference to ourselves. Except for 2 incidents described, one of which was a fight I wasn't even present at, I haven't really heard of any eyewitness accounts that are anything except a lone member not at an LS event. When you consider the hundreds of fights OH does and has done this is not an epidemic.

Furthermore since like february I don't think I'd ever heard a rumor about hacking nor have I for the last few weeks, It appears to me like a few members tried it out almost entirely on their own and got scared and then stopped. Every fight I've been at we have had multiple wins on, and always we have had a different strategy than on our first win. As well constantly with mobs we have little experience on, I see our kiters get injured and require healing or killed regulary. I don't know about most of you, but if I was moving flee speed i don't think I'd ever get hurt.

But yeah don't really want another 90 pages of this here. Believe what you want to believe, keep your eyes open if you care, call GMs if you see anything that offends you. I'm just saying there's another side to this story. Nasya doesn't seem to want this to continue either, but if the old post is gonna spill onto here than it will keep going. So not really going to talk about OH on this post anymore.

Give me a break man. Please quote where you said you had no evidence. Because either i'm getting too old, or you are just flat full of shit and are trying to justify your accusations with a lame excuse.

You used specific names, which is a clear indication that you would be able to muster up some sort of evidence if you wanted to somehow avoid all this drama. Why make an accusation towards someone if you can't provide proof? Sure you may have wanted people to be on the lookout, but if you didn't want any drama, you would of kept it to yourself.

Why wait 4 months to bring this all up? That makes me think you've seen something numerous times, care to explain the delay?

Talking based on opinion? If I was talking based on opinion I would of started my PM's that somewhat hinted everything following was just an opinion. You never clearly stated you were talking based on opinion, and even I pointed out that alot of your statements sounded like it was your mere opinion. I just pointed out the ones that were ever so clear, sounded like they were factual, and not opinion.

It doesn't matter whether or not it was a factual statement, or opinionated statement, you accused specific people, and should provide proof, or shouldn't of accused at all.

Your screenshot has nothing to do with your accusations of our LS hacking, but something that happened quite a long time ago and as stated by Kira that it is basically something meaningless, and has already been dealt with, and should have no context in this thread.

Just take the fault for accusing members of our LS for hacking without proof and move on.

 

[Firestreak]

Me:

I'm not trying to start drama, hence I am not going to name any names, but I might suggest you look into your LS a bit more carefully, specially your Paladins if you see cheating as as abhorant.

Neo:

our paladins? we dont hardly -have- any paladins that are active. we have like, 1, maybe 2. but tell me what you speak of, i would be really interested to know.

This piece of dialogue is especially important. I go into the conversation not wanting to name any names. Knowing I don't have evidence he asks me who I suspect.

-Just because I suspect someone and I don't have evidence, it doesn't make them innocent.

-However, it is obviously not grounds to hurt their reputation, if you are a reasonable person, which I deem Neophytal is, when you hear someone say they suspect someone and they don't have evidence, you are not going to flip out and lose respect for them - merely pay closer attention. If my opinions, which were not accusations, are false, then not a bad thing could possibly happen. In fact, Neo could tell me, "I watched those guys closely for a month, never saw a bad thing." And then I'd lose my own suspicions.


This is the big difference between talking in public and talking in private.

And how is that private chat an attempt to justify OH by hurting Kaizen? Neophytal IS a Kaizen member, I highly doubted the conversation was even going to get out into the public.

 

[Logxiix]

yes i understand. since you guys "know" we cheat, why do u still post about us cheating? Reason i said who the fuck cares? If you do care then call a GM and ban them. Easy enough?

So your supporting your LS in the use of hacks?

Have you even read anything in this thread? Were not out to get you banned, were out to simply let everyone know that Firestreaks accusations on some of our LS members are false. We do intend to GM anyone of your LS, or anyone in general caught in the act, there is no question about that. I'm sure everyone feels the same way. If they caught someone in the act of cheating, they would report it.

 

[Firestreak]

Furthermore the screenshot doesn't show that cheating is accepted in Kaizen. I fully believe that when Almaut says he never knew who MPKed and had nothing to do with it he was telling the truth.

It just shows that LS members can break the rules and not talk about it openly within the LS. Then some people who are vehemently opposed to cheating might not know that their LS members have. It just shows it can happen even with a highly respected LS.

Different people have different views about what is wrong and what isn't wrong. By the fact that members of Kaizen have stolen from them and then quit the LS, you then know that there can be people you believe to be moral wtihin your Ls who turn out not to be. By the fact that Kaizen members have joined JDA, you know that they as people are at the most amoral and indifferent.

But my apologies to anyone I offended present or former Kaizen member. It was never my intention to drag ANYONE'S name through the mud, My apologies to Jamal, who I talked with last night and we are cool now - no I'm not trying to accuse him of a cheater past or present. I would never intentionally accuse a person without evidence, nor would I spread opinions to a person I thought wouldn't keep them quiet.

 

[Logxiix]

Me:
This piece of dialogue is especially important. I go into the conversation not wanting to name any names. Knowing I don't have evidence he asks me who I suspect.

He asked you what you know, not who you suspect. Again, if you didn't want any drama, you clearly would of mentioned "these are my own suspicions, and I do not have any evidence." How does somebody know if you have evidence or not when you never state it your first PM? Interesting.

-Just because I accuse someone and I don't have evidence, it doesn't make them innocent.

Fixed. Your right, but it makes it alot more harder for your accusations to be valid, especially if you want anyone to believe you.

-However, it is obviously not grounds to hurt their reputation, if you are a reasonable person, which I deem Neophytal is, when you hear someone say they suspect someone and they don't have evidence, you are not going to flip out and lose respect for them - merely pay closer attention. If my opinions, which were not accusations, are false, then not a bad thing could possibly happen. In fact, Neo could tell me, "I watched those guys closely for a month, never saw a bad thing." And then I'd lose my own suspicions.

Surely you won't hurt ones reputation based on suspicion, but if you are going to suspect someones friend and linkshell leader, you should bring your A game.

And how is that private chat an attempt to justify OH by hurting Kaizen? Neophytal IS a Kaizen member, I highly doubted the conversation was even going to get out into the public

It just so happened that at the same time some of your own LS members were accused and proven to be cheaters. Anyone who can read between the lines can see that this is an attempt to justify them by changing the attention to those of a different LS.

Anyhow, I've said my peace.

 

[Stouter]

To this date, nobody has come up with what i deep a really good reason as to why flee tools is even bad in the first place.

Using flee tools isn't always the victimless crime, and it's not SE that's the victim of using them against HNM's. The other ls's using legitimate methods suffer from playing by the rules.

(Note this is not something that I am claiming has happened, just a for instance) You show up to Tiamat with 6 people and find your competition there ready to make claim. Your whm claims and kites around while you wait on the rest of your ls to show up.

ps - It's sad that OH had to use the flee tool for Bahamut. I've done the fight now with two seperate QCDN pickup parties, and am 2/2.

QCDN pickup group > end game ls that's been around over a year.

 

[Giaganta]

Fine stouter if u think that then you can just get a pick up group and we'll let ya have a round with Jorm or Tiamat.

 

[Stouter]

Fine stouter if u think that then you can just get a pick up group and we'll let ya have a round with Jorm or Tiamat.

I'm sure a pickup group from here of 30 or so people could take down either of those. Why no mention of Vrtra though? :biggrin: