OHrly?

neophytal said:
hey look, you made OuterHeaven's dickhead of vanadiel list.

http://www.outerheavenls.com/dicks.htm
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I know about it. I piss off prophecy and I don't care :P I still have a few friends in OH. That list is just stupid anyways. I have nothing against Kaizen either I'm just saying that MPK is MPK no matter what reason you MPK for.
 
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Elemmire said:
I have nothing against Kaizen either I'm just saying that MPK is MPK no matter what reason you MPK for.
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Uh no there is a difference. You see in real life, if you kill someone in self defense it's not considered a murder. You killed someone sure, but is it wrong? Hell no.
 
Crosis said:
Uh no there is a difference. You see in real life, if you kill someone in self defense it's not considered a murder. You killed someone sure, but is it wrong? Hell no.
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but in reality.. self defense killing is still killing :P a death is a death.. no matter what way they die..
 
I'm not saying that people claiming people in my LS are wrong. If I did, please quote me on that, because I'm sure I have never said people don't cheat. Hell, Prophecy admitted to it, and whether it was irony or not doesn't matter in the eyes of most of the readers.

But your analogy is somewhat flawed too, because I have asked them not to cheat. Whether they chose to listen is their own choice. Going back to my imaginary sister again;

If my sister would rob a bank, no. I don't agree with her, and if I knew she were planning on it, I would try to stop them, just how I ask my LS not to cheat. Whether they/she listen to it is, again, wrong. I repeat; I wouldn't let my sister rob a bank, and I would try to stop her. Sadly, stopping someone to do something can be hard. In the same way I try to stop my LS from using cheats, but its not always succesfull. I also don't try to keep an eye out for them at all times, because that means I'm probably missing something else important to keep us alive (Cures, Refresh, Bar-spells and w/e).

And murder is NOT the same as robbing a bank.Taking someones life is far more serious than stealing pieces of paper with numbers on them. If my sister was involved it murder, yes. I would call the police on her, but bank robbery I'm not so sure. While it is certainly a bad thing she did, its not all that serious. In the same way I won't call a GM on my LS mates if I do find them cheating, but if someone else do I understand why, and I won't complain since what they did is wrong. If you find your friend downloading movies off the internet, will you call the cops on him? Because what he's doing is illegal, so basically what you're saying is that it automatically makes you a "pirate" too because you don't call the cops on him?

So if trying to stop my sister from robbing a bank, but not calling the police on her after she's done it, then yes. Call me a bank robber. If asking my LS not to use cheats, but not calling a GM on them when they do, then yes. Call me a cheater.
 
Elemmire said:
but in reality.. self defense killing is still killing :P a death is a death.. no matter what way they die..
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No one's arguing that it's not an mpk, they're saying that a retaliatory mpk is jusitifed just like killing in self-defense. Although, you could argue that it's never justified pretty easily, it just depends on the philosophy you follow.
 
Crosis said:
Uh no there is a difference. You see in real life, if you kill someone in self defense it's not considered a murder. You killed someone sure, but is it wrong? Hell no.
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There is that little detail of actually proving its self-defence too. Hell, even innocent people who never killed anyone in their entire life, not even in self-defence, are still behind bars for murder. Some even get the death sentence even though they are innocent. Recognize the situation?
 
You guys are all misunderstanding me.

I do not think MPK is wrong in all circumstances. I am sure any MPKing action, defensive, offensive or retaliatory is evil. I think in many cases, MPK is the right thing to do. What you don't understand is, I like Kaizen and I respect them. My statements were never intended as an insult.

The only point I was trying to make is there is such a thing as moral relativity. As Crosis said, MPK happens all the time in Dragon Aery, therefore his LS is justified to take actions to defend or retaliate.

YES, ABSOLUTELY!

My original position was simply a discussion of moral relativity.

If Almaut does or doesn't hack is not the point I was trying to make. I have nothing against Almaut. The point is, I believed it to be true, and I didn't care. I believed Arcien to be guilty of that MPK, and I didn't mind. I know my own LS getting killed too wasn't on purpose.

I was trying to express to Neo my own morality, which is that what matters is using programs in a way that hurts others. Using MPK on people who don't deserve it. Breaking the rules to get claim in a way to give yourself an advantage over rivals you know don't do that. Stealing items. Stealing claim from LSs not in the process of wiping.

This is what I view as relative morality. It's not idealism, it's more functional. The purpose being to not make enemies, more or less. I don't know of anything Kaizen has done to break my moral code. I haven't been talking shit about Kaizen. I tried to engage Neo in a discussion. My opinions were not based on anything except my own experiences.
 
Bajaratt said:
No one's arguing that it's not an mpk, they're saying that a retaliatory mpk is jusitifed just like killing in self-defense. Although, you could argue that it's never justified pretty easily, it just depends on the philosophy you follow.
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ah, my mistake.
 
This is what an accusation is:


a formal charge of wrongdoing, delinquency, or fault <the accused shall enjoy the right…to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation

charge of wrongdoing that is made against a person or other party.



You see the point being this flame is against me because it's stated that I accused.

1) I, from the very beginning, have stated I see no wrong doing in the case of Kaizen.

2) There was nothing formal about it, nor charges made.



Where I fucked up:

I didn't say before every accusation. "I believe.."

But then when Neophytal talked to me about what he believed in terms of bot usage for HNMParty, he never said, "I believe."

The conversation altogether was clumsy. I worded it poorly, not on purpose but because I thought the conversation was private and by me stating I had no evidence it was consequently understood they were mere opinions.

I didn't intend to offend anyone. I assumed it was private.

By assuming in private I can relax my standards, both parties can use common sense and that I don't have to be careful and diplomatic, I let my guard down.

That was my fuckup. I have said I'm sorry.

I now know better than to tell a Kaizen member about my personal opinions. I, apparently, will get flamed for it. If I can't prove my opinon, I'm not allowed to have it. If evidence that convinces me, doesn't convince everyone on the server, I'm not allowed to believe it.

Thank you for letting me know where I stand.
 
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Kyr said:
I would, many others would, that is the point, at least we agree there. I was mostly debating and focusing with this point you made...



Which I was hoping you would understand from my post. Most people do feel that if you won't take any real action, then you are guilty. That's all I wanted to point out, people do have a right to call your LS and people within cheaters - because they stand by while it happens. There is no reason to not involve an entire LS who harbors cheaters openly. Especially one whose leaders admittedly cheat. To not take any real action, and allow it to continue is, to most, wrong.


I don't really like analogies, they are almost always flawed because different situations are rarely ever the same on enough levels for them to be really useful. People love using Hitler in analogies when it's so stupid and pointless to do so. Most people make analogies to try and prove a point, only to realize that it really isn't the same thing, and therefore isn't useful when discussed further. I think we could go back and forth all day trying to think of a good analogy, only to never agree on a single one.

My first post said what I wanted to say, I didn't wish to debate the semantics of a proper analogy much further. At least I now understand better where you are coming from...and hopefully, now you will better understand where others who have beliefs similar to myself are as well. The two statements above by you that I quoted are exactly what I was talking about, nothing more, and nothing less.

Take care, best wishes.
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I'd like to point out also, there is something besides just loyalty sometimes when dealing with people who have given you extremely valuable gear. Like myself for example - W. Legs, Osode, Haidates, Nobles Tunic, S kote. It's not just loyalty it's duty. There are linkshell members who gave their free time, their exp and their resources to help me get my stuff. Until I feel like I've put my time in to help all those who helped me, I'm not going anywhere.

To me a person getting a shitload of gear and then just splitting is worse than damn near anything else you can do in endgame. There are so so many things I can tolerate but that burns me up inside. So to ask me to leave an LS in order to make some point on moralty doesn't make any sense.

I hope that's something someone who views the world like you won't judge me too harshly on.
 
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Firestreak said:
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If Arcien wasn't the MPKer, why did the GM said he "knows" it was him? Didn't say suspect, said knows. Is it so impossible that when you log onto FF that the game records your IP? So impossible he was looking at Halflife's last IP login, and then saying, "hmmm, who the hell else uses this IP?"
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I don't really see anywhere on that conversation with the GM that he says that it was indeed Arcien playing Halflife. The GM only says that he knows what all characters are halflife's. As it was pointed out before, those screenshots prove only that Prophecy read someone's comment and assumed it to be true.


Fact is, I never quite understood that day why everyone was so quick to point fingers at us for that MPK. We had been camping fafnir for a long while by then, and on a constant basis as well. At that time we also had been having a fair amount of claims on it as I remember. Everything had been going fine until the day that another NA LS shows up to Dragon's Aery. The very day another NA LS is present aside from us, someone gets MPKed. I always felt that was quite suspicious. In fact I remember thinking it absolutely must have been the enigmatic third LS's doing. Why would anyone ever suspect otherwise.

Kaizen had never MPKed JDA , though at that time they had MPKed us, or at least attempted to, three or more times. They also hadn't attempted MPK in a month or so I think. Either way, their MPK attempts on us had always been over Nidhogg. So I'll never understand why Fygla or any other JDA member, would immediately assume that it was us trying to MPK them, over stupid old useless Fafnir, which only had one (-extremely rare-) item that was of any use to us, over a month later. I think they should have been wise enough to understand, that if we held a grudge over their wrong doings to us, and intended on getting our revenge, that we would do it in the same scale as they had done to us. Unfortunately, as per this logic, that is not so. Fafnir is nowhere near an NM of the same caliber as Nidhogg.

After all these events had transpired. I looked back at all of this and thought that maybe, just maybe, the other NA LS present didn't have anything to do with this, maybe I was wrong. But could it be... perhaps... that other players have access to Halflife's account. Players who were already members of JDA, and who would MPK their own LS in a humorous attempt to to frame one of the other LSs present? Or perhaps, the reason Fygla was so quick to point fingers is because this theory is correct. Because he knew the true identity of that MPKer. After all, at that time, JDA was always looking for excuses to MPK us. Too bad for them, we never gave them any. Either way they can believe whatever the heck they want. Either way, for them to think that Kaizen would MPK them over a silly Fafnir, is a way bigger insult to me than actually pinning that circus act on us.
 
Xan said:
I don't really see anywhere on that conversation with the GM that he says that it was indeed Arcien playing Halflife. The GM only says that he knows what all characters are halflife's. As it was pointed out before, those screenshots prove only that Prophecy read someone's comment and assumed it to be true.


Fact is, I never quite understood that day why everyone was so quick to point fingers at us for that MPK. We had been camping fafnir for a long while by then, and on a constant basis as well. At that time we also had been having a fair amount of claims on it as I remember. Everything had been going fine until the day that another NA LS shows up to Dragon's Aery. The very day another NA LS is present aside from us, someone gets MPKed. I always felt that was quite suspicious. In fact I remember thinking it absolutely must have been the enigmatic third LS's doing. Why would anyone ever suspect otherwise.

Kaizen had never MPKed JDA , though at that time they had MPKed us, or at least attempted to, three or more times. They also hadn't attempted MPK in a month or so I think. Either way, their MPK attempts on us had always been over Nidhogg. So I'll never understand why Fygla or any other JDA member, would immediately assume that it was us trying to MPK them, over stupid old useless Fafnir, which only had one (-extremely rare-) item that was of any use to us, over a month later. I think they should have been wise enough to understand, that if we held a grudge over their wrong doings to us, and intended on getting our revenge, that we would do it in the same scale as they had done to us. Unfortunately, as per this logic, that is not so. Fafnir is nowhere near an NM of the same caliber as Nidhogg.

After all these events had transpired. I looked back at all of this and thought that maybe, just maybe, the other NA LS present didn't have anything to do with this, maybe I was wrong. But could it be... perhaps... that other players have access to Halflife's account. Players who were already members of JDA, and who would MPK their own LS in a humorous attempt to to frame one of the other LSs present? Or perhaps, the reason Fygla was so quick to point fingers is because this theory is correct. Because he knew the true identity of that MPKer. After all, at that time, JDA was always looking for excuses to MPK us. Too bad for them, we never gave them any. Either way they can believe whatever the heck they want. Either way, for them to think that Kaizen would MPK them over a silly Fafnir, is a way bigger insult to me than actually pinning that circus act on us.
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Well the thing to look at is not just that they assume it was you. It was that they assumed it was Arcien.

Now i'm not saying I'm 100% sure Arcien is guilty, just that the evidence looks that way to me. Not that i'd have blamed you guys for MPKing them, after all it's the nature of the zone and you didn't start it.

The reason I think they assumed it was Arcien was that like us, some of us were told he had access to the account. So who has access and who has a motive? Bam there's your immediate suspect. That doesn't prove jack shit, of course. But if the GM didn't know Arcien to be guilty, then the wording he used was absolutely terrible.

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You'll have to understand we didn't call the GM, we didn't make it our business to investigate and to some point I feel somewhat bad having this conversation, because it's still not my business. But based on the evidence I have it's the assumption I made. The evidence being the wording the GM used. At any rate, if Arcien is innocent, you must admit that then the GM made a mistake at saying "Yeah, we know all of Halflife's characters". If there was another culprit, who he then knows is guilty, shoulda told us considering we got killed too in the MPK.
 
Being that I'm a PS2 player, would anyone care to GM call and see what they wrote in the report? I could do it but then I couldn't screenshot it - so therefore I couldn't provide evidence to the conversation.

And if any JDA member who uses this board would like to comment, they might have some insight neither of us do.
 
Firestreak said:
Well the thing to look at is not just that they assume it was you. It was that they assumed it was Arcien.

Now i'm not saying I'm 100% sure Arcien is guilty, just that the evidence looks that way to me. Not that i'd have blamed you guys for MPKing them, after all it's the nature of the zone and you didn't start it.

The reason I think they assumed it was Arcien was that like us, some of us were told he had access to the account. So who has access and who has a motive? Bam there's your immediate suspect. That doesn't prove jack shit, of course. But if the GM didn't know Arcien to be guilty, then the wording he used was absolutely terrible.

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You'll have to understand we didn't call the GM, we didn't make it our business to investigate and to some point I feel somewhat bad having this conversation, because it's still not my business. But based on the evidence I have it's the assumption I made. The evidence being the wording the GM used. At any rate, if Arcien is innocent, you must admit that then the GM made a mistake at saying "Yeah, we know all of Halflife's characters". If there was another culprit, who he then knows is guilty, shoulda told us considering we got killed too in the MPK.
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Well my point here is that we really don't have much a motive. Also, I never knew who Halflife was but it is my understanding several people have access or had to access to that account including people who are members of JDA. Also in those screeshots... in one Prophecy mentions Arcien's name, in the other the GM mentions knowing which characters are linked to Halflife. Not only does this not imply Arcien is the culprit. Either way, there's nothing I saw in those two shots that they indicate that those two lines even took place consecutively in the conversation. For a I know there are dozens more lines between those two lines that simply were not screenshotted. ;)
 
Xan said:
Well my point here is that we really don't have much a motive. Also, I never knew who Halflife was but it is my understanding several people have access or had to access to that account including people who are members of JDA. Also in those screeshots... in one Prophecy mentions Arcien's name, in the other the GM mentions knowing which characters are linked to Halflife. Not only does this not imply Arcien is the culprit. Either way, there's nothing I saw in those two shots that they indicate that those two lines even took place consecutively in the conversation. For a I know there are dozens more lines between those two lines that simply were not screenshotted. ;)
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I'll admit you're right that the screens were not taken in the correct method so that you can be sure they weren't edited to make Arcien look bad.

I don't think Prophecy would have done that though. He told us not to start any drama over it. I am absolutely sure he has no problem with Kaizen. He is somewhat upset of the comments I made as he doesn't want to create enemies.

But you should admit that Arcien does look bad there. You can say "yeah" doesn't = "yes" but the chances are in that context, yes. It's not airtight, no. Maybe GM Melvis can shed some light for us.
 
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