Ok tell me why...
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The slow SATA setup THF and the walkure mask and brig-wearing meleeing RDM who still can't see when the mob is buffing itself to Dispel it are my personal Satans.
Shaunessy said:
then tell them to take there paying ass and go solo with there sord en-spell and shitty damage. They may pay but the 5 others in that party do as well and they would rather get more bang for there buck and a shitty en-spell 5 minute late dispell no refresh unless told to rdm isn't worthy of the hat that they get
And last time you were told that you can play whatever way you like, just don't expect us to party with you if you suck. That hasn't changed.
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Darth: In summery it was basically going into great details of why what Shaunessy's statements failed to make a great deal of sense and perhaps more enlightening ways of combating her reasonings. The RDM is basically a "Support-Class" Job. Aside from job specific enspells, refresh, and dispell, they are a hybrid of white mage and black mage. The fine line between the yin and the yang, if you will. With so many failing at it-- often times the only thing that I care that they do is refresh and dispell. At least with the refresh the white mage and black mage are able to pick up the slack. (To A degree.) In truth, the rdm role is to "pick up the slack" of the white mage and the black mage. If the PLD is taking a bit more dmg than the white mage can keep up with-- yes, the RDM should toss a cure or the white mage, by default, is going to steal too much hate. If the Mob requires more damage-- the RDM should be able to deliver it. They have to make themselves flexible for the parties' needs and not just their "own (Idon'twannadothis)" needs.
Pre-JSE I could not keep every melee hasted and maintain MP effectively as a white mage and would generally discuss with the RDM at the start 'Can you cast haste on this member and I'll haste this one?' Communication at the start of the party is byfar the most important thing so that everyone knows and mp is not wasted unnessessarily.
QFT. Noone will care if you are meleeing if you are doing the duties needed. If you melee and do everything else the party wants you to do-- they would be much happier to have you than the RDM who stands with the other mages and doesn't do their job effectively. The problem is, and you will notice this on your own, is that while you might be able to melee and fluidly put out the needed spells you might be disavantaged at seeing an incoming link. Your vision is narrowed slightly and thus you might have trouble in your blind spot. i.e. the BLM getting hit with a link that's wearing into his stoneskin/blink. Or the need for a quick cure because your white mage is in a resting position.
With my prior experience as a melee-WHM (as unorthadox as that is) I am certain that I would be able to melee as a rdm in an exp party. -- However, being an avid rester/mp conserver and enjoying the option of seeing as much of the playing field as possible-- I'd possibly chose not to.
In the 20's I melee'd as my blm for the sake of keeping my dagger capped. Every time I leveled up I'd engage the mob. When the skill capped, I returned to the more desired mage position. Honestly the party did not like it much that I was meleeing. Their arguement was that I was "crowding" the mob. Since I was using drinks and constantly dealing out the bulk of the damage, they twiddled their thumbs and delt. Great EXP and deal with a BLM hitting 0's on a crab, or Decent EXP with a BLM who's not? The answer is easy. Bare in mind if you should slip on your performance while not doing things the "orthadox way" people are going to notice more. I had to stop, of course, upon entering the jungle as aoes were more dangerous to deal with. A bit of commen sense goes a long way.
--
As far as the arguement of haste-- It should not take longer than 3 mins (the duration of haste) to kill a mob. If it does there is something very unballanced with the party and one should look into a way to remedy the problem. It is very possible to work out a haste order. The only reason why you would not want to haste a melee is if they were more over-powered than the tank controlling the mob. And this does happen. MNKs can be very lethel with haste and if the mobs are not being defeated fast enough-- can be a very big MP sink. However, at the same time, that's usually why you want a MNK or any other heavy melee DD. There are a few Monks I've simply told, "Sorry bro, I cannot afford to haste you.. lol." And they know why, and it's not because of the MP requirement of haste. The ninja is struggling and the mob is becoming unbalanced. If your party is dependant upon SCing than your priority after the tank should be hasting the member who is not building TP as fast as his SC partner. (Bare in mind, this is pre-cannon. In a melee cannon you want to do your very best to make sure that all members are hasted so that the mobs go down fast.)
The only reason why hasting a member of a party would cause a mage to be hit with a directional AOE has nothing to do with Haste. It has to do with the members of the party not being positioned correctly. Try a triangle formation.
Melee (monster) Tank
Mages
Or something to that effect. (hoping that looks right in text.)
Oh! And one last thing.. Regardless to job, if you do not like the tasks the party wants you to perform.. it's ok to put you flag down and play solo. I've done this and have absolutely no regrets when playing SMN. You do not only yourself a favor but the entire team a favor. I was a main healer on WHM all the way to 75.. So, to do it again on SMN was not always enjoyable. Remember it is your game, and as a game you want to have fun. To forsake everyone else's fun, however, is rude. Try to find a ballance that works.
RDM, when played well, has to be the most taxing job in the game along side of the WHM and perhaps the tank. As a RDM you have 7 targets to be concerned with-- your party and the monster. As a DD you have 1, and that being the monster. However, that's just one way to look at it.
Pre-JSE I could not keep every melee hasted and maintain MP effectively as a white mage and would generally discuss with the RDM at the start 'Can you cast haste on this member and I'll haste this one?' Communication at the start of the party is byfar the most important thing so that everyone knows and mp is not wasted unnessessarily.
GhostinmyShell said:
QFT. Noone will care if you are meleeing if you are doing the duties needed. If you melee and do everything else the party wants you to do-- they would be much happier to have you than the RDM who stands with the other mages and doesn't do their job effectively. The problem is, and you will notice this on your own, is that while you might be able to melee and fluidly put out the needed spells you might be disavantaged at seeing an incoming link. Your vision is narrowed slightly and thus you might have trouble in your blind spot. i.e. the BLM getting hit with a link that's wearing into his stoneskin/blink. Or the need for a quick cure because your white mage is in a resting position.
With my prior experience as a melee-WHM (as unorthadox as that is) I am certain that I would be able to melee as a rdm in an exp party. -- However, being an avid rester/mp conserver and enjoying the option of seeing as much of the playing field as possible-- I'd possibly chose not to.
In the 20's I melee'd as my blm for the sake of keeping my dagger capped. Every time I leveled up I'd engage the mob. When the skill capped, I returned to the more desired mage position. Honestly the party did not like it much that I was meleeing. Their arguement was that I was "crowding" the mob. Since I was using drinks and constantly dealing out the bulk of the damage, they twiddled their thumbs and delt. Great EXP and deal with a BLM hitting 0's on a crab, or Decent EXP with a BLM who's not? The answer is easy. Bare in mind if you should slip on your performance while not doing things the "orthadox way" people are going to notice more. I had to stop, of course, upon entering the jungle as aoes were more dangerous to deal with. A bit of commen sense goes a long way.
--
As far as the arguement of haste-- It should not take longer than 3 mins (the duration of haste) to kill a mob. If it does there is something very unballanced with the party and one should look into a way to remedy the problem. It is very possible to work out a haste order. The only reason why you would not want to haste a melee is if they were more over-powered than the tank controlling the mob. And this does happen. MNKs can be very lethel with haste and if the mobs are not being defeated fast enough-- can be a very big MP sink. However, at the same time, that's usually why you want a MNK or any other heavy melee DD. There are a few Monks I've simply told, "Sorry bro, I cannot afford to haste you.. lol." And they know why, and it's not because of the MP requirement of haste. The ninja is struggling and the mob is becoming unbalanced. If your party is dependant upon SCing than your priority after the tank should be hasting the member who is not building TP as fast as his SC partner. (Bare in mind, this is pre-cannon. In a melee cannon you want to do your very best to make sure that all members are hasted so that the mobs go down fast.)
The only reason why hasting a member of a party would cause a mage to be hit with a directional AOE has nothing to do with Haste. It has to do with the members of the party not being positioned correctly. Try a triangle formation.
Melee (monster) Tank
Mages
Or something to that effect. (hoping that looks right in text.)
Oh! And one last thing.. Regardless to job, if you do not like the tasks the party wants you to perform.. it's ok to put you flag down and play solo. I've done this and have absolutely no regrets when playing SMN. You do not only yourself a favor but the entire team a favor. I was a main healer on WHM all the way to 75.. So, to do it again on SMN was not always enjoyable. Remember it is your game, and as a game you want to have fun. To forsake everyone else's fun, however, is rude. Try to find a ballance that works.
RDM, when played well, has to be the most taxing job in the game along side of the WHM and perhaps the tank. As a RDM you have 7 targets to be concerned with-- your party and the monster. As a DD you have 1, and that being the monster. However, that's just one way to look at it.
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dedalius said:
/sigh One day people will learn to read.. Thats exactly what I just said. the point i am making is the fact Enfeebling is the PRIMARY objective.. meaning everything else follows it... <That does not mean dont do it> *'it' meaning refresh, cure, (heaven forbid) nuke, etc*
Shaidalyn said:
Similar spells meaning the tier below. Great you can cast Water for the same amount the BLM can but frankly i would prefer a Water III.
I'm not saying that RDM can't nuke or that you won't notice it, but claiming you can do the same damage as a BLM on a spell that they probably stopped using a while ago isn't really much of a claim.
No RDM on this game can keep up with my BLM casting the same level spell. I will place money on that. I will say that a RDM can nuke but deffinatly not as well as a BLM.
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Rinoah said:
When our Taru Blm in full AF does a Thunder II for 340 and I do the same in RED MAGE gear (absolutely no +int) and do 310.... don't tell me we can't nuke fine.
Yeah their Blizzaga II is sick compared to our Blizzard II, I can still drop a 430 dmg burst for only 77mp. Thats NOT a waste of mp when you can end a chain 5 with 300+mp.
Rinoah said:
Yes because that obviously translates into "You can't nuke you are a rdm. rdm suck lolz, you just waste your MP and melee coz you not 1337 like blm."
Thank you for showing me the light.
Rdm elemental magic blows ass they get resisted to easy and should only nuke a mb if ever. Its been awhile since I mb bliz2 on rdm but I think that numbers a bit high. At any note I beat my rdms highest mb on blm at no later then 40 that's a 26lvl difference.
so while it may help in a way a rdms mp is very crutial and if you have 400mp after chain 5 witha origional mp pool of no more then 740 (that's about what I have as a 66taru rdm) then your doing something wrong really.
so while it may help in a way a rdms mp is very crutial and if you have 400mp after chain 5 witha origional mp pool of no more then 740 (that's about what I have as a 66taru rdm) then your doing something wrong really.
Rdm is 43 now
ok.. I've resolved not to melee right now.. With the introduction of new responsibilities ( I don't even have haste yet ), I've found that doing melee damage in an exp pt is near impossible for me. I can't speak for others.. but I insist on being the best I can at my job...
I do the enfeebling (paralyze, dia II or bio II depending on the pt setup, and slow.. I reserve gravity for when the mob is liable to make a run on the mages, since it has a such a long recast time)
I refresh every mage in cycles as it drops on me.. this order is what I maintain .. me - pld - whm - smn - blm - drk, brd... so far I think I've been doing ok..
after these I wait to nuke for mb's, then restart the cycle.. waiting for above listed things to wear.
Being new to these duties, as I was a whm til 65 and blm to 60.. both are still going, Im simply doing rdm until blm comes available again..
I'll discuss the new issue of nuking now, I pride myself on my gear, and generally have some of the better blm gear a taru can own.. I've been in several manaburn pt's, and many pt's with other blms besides me.. I'm not speaking down of any other blm's .. but I've always out nuked them all.
Now, as a taru rdm I still have much of my old blm gear.. I'm using a wisdom ring +1, normal wisdom ring, Morion Tathlum, a solid wand, black cape+1, nymph shield, Mage's Robe, Garrison boots, duel morion earrings, combat caster's mitts, electrum hairpin for mp, wonder braccae, reverend sash, and a black silk neckerchief .. I'm waiting til 51 to do my rdm upgrading... Most of this is just old gear left from rse, and old blm gear...
now because blm is 60, and whm is 65... all of my magic skills are capped.. and when I eat food, other than cookies, I eat melon pies +1 because I have a dear pimp.. er I mean food that cooks them for me cheap...
Knowing all this.. even unresisted I don't come close to nuking for the same damage as a decent blm. now.. I have come close in crawler's nest with the occasional unresisted thunder spell .. but that's after I cast rasp .. LoL
so what I'm saying is.. up until 60, I can speak for experience .. the best geared rdm isn't going to match nuke damage with a good blm... not going to happen. .and if it does.. PLEASE tell me how, and I'll follow suit, because I looooove nukin. taking all this into account, I still don't feel that a rdm nuking from time to time is going to hurt. as said before RDM's are the uber mp managers... I see that, and I'm getting pretty good at it with my ginger cookies, and refresh spell.. and my reverend sash..
I nuke when the mob is near death.. or for mb's .. or for boredom in a nin tank uber melee pt.. not like I have a whole lot else to do there.. LoL
so why all this recent angst towards rdm's ?! If they can do all their duties to par or better.. and can manage theirs and everyone else's mp..
If they wanna melee a lil.. or do some extra nukin.. why the heck not ?!
ok, that was my useless drawn out point.. btw, I'm enjoying rdm.. but nothing replaces the thrill of turning a mob's head with your first and single post second voke midlvl nuke. hehehhe
btw.. my record against a non-mb AM cast against an IT mob.. .1125 against an IT+ crab in The Boyhada Tree with freeze at!!! That was several lvls ago.. I'm lvl 60 now and still capped!!! I cannot wait to start knocking bibiki bay birds around... /evil grin... ^^
I'm gonna call my static up and start knockin heads to get rolling again.. breaks over damnit.
ok.. I've resolved not to melee right now.. With the introduction of new responsibilities ( I don't even have haste yet ), I've found that doing melee damage in an exp pt is near impossible for me. I can't speak for others.. but I insist on being the best I can at my job...
I do the enfeebling (paralyze, dia II or bio II depending on the pt setup, and slow.. I reserve gravity for when the mob is liable to make a run on the mages, since it has a such a long recast time)
I refresh every mage in cycles as it drops on me.. this order is what I maintain .. me - pld - whm - smn - blm - drk, brd... so far I think I've been doing ok..
after these I wait to nuke for mb's, then restart the cycle.. waiting for above listed things to wear.
Being new to these duties, as I was a whm til 65 and blm to 60.. both are still going, Im simply doing rdm until blm comes available again..
I'll discuss the new issue of nuking now, I pride myself on my gear, and generally have some of the better blm gear a taru can own.. I've been in several manaburn pt's, and many pt's with other blms besides me.. I'm not speaking down of any other blm's .. but I've always out nuked them all.
Now, as a taru rdm I still have much of my old blm gear.. I'm using a wisdom ring +1, normal wisdom ring, Morion Tathlum, a solid wand, black cape+1, nymph shield, Mage's Robe, Garrison boots, duel morion earrings, combat caster's mitts, electrum hairpin for mp, wonder braccae, reverend sash, and a black silk neckerchief .. I'm waiting til 51 to do my rdm upgrading... Most of this is just old gear left from rse, and old blm gear...
now because blm is 60, and whm is 65... all of my magic skills are capped.. and when I eat food, other than cookies, I eat melon pies +1 because I have a dear pimp.. er I mean food that cooks them for me cheap...
Knowing all this.. even unresisted I don't come close to nuking for the same damage as a decent blm. now.. I have come close in crawler's nest with the occasional unresisted thunder spell .. but that's after I cast rasp .. LoL
so what I'm saying is.. up until 60, I can speak for experience .. the best geared rdm isn't going to match nuke damage with a good blm... not going to happen. .and if it does.. PLEASE tell me how, and I'll follow suit, because I looooove nukin. taking all this into account, I still don't feel that a rdm nuking from time to time is going to hurt. as said before RDM's are the uber mp managers... I see that, and I'm getting pretty good at it with my ginger cookies, and refresh spell.. and my reverend sash..
I nuke when the mob is near death.. or for mb's .. or for boredom in a nin tank uber melee pt.. not like I have a whole lot else to do there.. LoL
so why all this recent angst towards rdm's ?! If they can do all their duties to par or better.. and can manage theirs and everyone else's mp..
If they wanna melee a lil.. or do some extra nukin.. why the heck not ?!
ok, that was my useless drawn out point.. btw, I'm enjoying rdm.. but nothing replaces the thrill of turning a mob's head with your first and single post second voke midlvl nuke. hehehhe
btw.. my record against a non-mb AM cast against an IT mob.. .1125 against an IT+ crab in The Boyhada Tree with freeze at!!! That was several lvls ago.. I'm lvl 60 now and still capped!!! I cannot wait to start knocking bibiki bay birds around... /evil grin... ^^
I'm gonna call my static up and start knockin heads to get rolling again.. breaks over damnit.
addition: (no edit button)
penitent's rope and magic cuisses along with all my elemental staves (2HQ) and Moldavite earring, other schtuph ... is in safe waiting for rdm to use... heheh
I want to add, that an rdm knows their own mp expenditure, and their own schedule regards to hasting, refreshing, and knows to watch for enfeebles dropping, and dispel'ing.. etc..
most I would like to think know this by the time they hit 50+...
I'm all for making sure a person does their job.. every party is only as strong as their weakest member.. we all know this...
but please..
if a <insert job here> is doing all of their duties, why not let them do a little more.. if you see a valid reason that they should stop. Like a weird AOE mob.. one that silences or sleeps.. or something that could be detrimental to the team... remind them of it politely and ask them to get out of range.. I do not see the validity of the mob building tp, or tank losing hate, or whatever being valid.. but if you can prove it's not good for the party politely remind and ask.. start in /tells... if they still don't respond, be more stern.. then ask the pt leader to get a replacement. No reason to be rude. no reason to burn bridges.. find out their reasons, be civil.. etc..
examples:
rdm overnuking, melee'ing
drk nuking
mnk over "boosting"
pld berserking like mad..
blm (not going there in this thread)
whm nuking, over enfeebling if the support job is doing same, overwriting another mage's enfeeble (example: rdm is dia'ing.. then whm is doing same right behind them)
soooo many more to go I won't list..
anyway, if they're doing these things.. be proactive, and civil.. /tell the person.. *start out with a positive* dude/dudette, you're doing a slam up job of curing the tank.. doing awesome !!! , but that Dia II .. the rdm is already doin that. No reason to throw away your mp, right? If the whm says something like .. I'm trying to skill up a lil, and no real issues with mp.. then hey, tell the rdm or whatever.. /tell dude the rdm is working on skilling up, he wants to do the Dia II, that gives ya a lil break, huh?
or if they won't listen.. and it's a valid point.. and the whole pt agrees.. get a replacement.
my point is .. Help other players improve! ... it's all about fun.. sometimes weird things work.. doing things differently sometimes is more rewarding than the 2 - 300 exp you might have not gained..
ok.. I'm rambling. .that's enough
penitent's rope and magic cuisses along with all my elemental staves (2HQ) and Moldavite earring, other schtuph ... is in safe waiting for rdm to use... heheh
I want to add, that an rdm knows their own mp expenditure, and their own schedule regards to hasting, refreshing, and knows to watch for enfeebles dropping, and dispel'ing.. etc..
most I would like to think know this by the time they hit 50+...
I'm all for making sure a person does their job.. every party is only as strong as their weakest member.. we all know this...
but please..
if a <insert job here> is doing all of their duties, why not let them do a little more.. if you see a valid reason that they should stop. Like a weird AOE mob.. one that silences or sleeps.. or something that could be detrimental to the team... remind them of it politely and ask them to get out of range.. I do not see the validity of the mob building tp, or tank losing hate, or whatever being valid.. but if you can prove it's not good for the party politely remind and ask.. start in /tells... if they still don't respond, be more stern.. then ask the pt leader to get a replacement. No reason to be rude. no reason to burn bridges.. find out their reasons, be civil.. etc..
examples:
rdm overnuking, melee'ing
drk nuking
mnk over "boosting"
pld berserking like mad..
blm (not going there in this thread)
whm nuking, over enfeebling if the support job is doing same, overwriting another mage's enfeeble (example: rdm is dia'ing.. then whm is doing same right behind them)
soooo many more to go I won't list..
anyway, if they're doing these things.. be proactive, and civil.. /tell the person.. *start out with a positive* dude/dudette, you're doing a slam up job of curing the tank.. doing awesome !!! , but that Dia II .. the rdm is already doin that. No reason to throw away your mp, right? If the whm says something like .. I'm trying to skill up a lil, and no real issues with mp.. then hey, tell the rdm or whatever.. /tell dude the rdm is working on skilling up, he wants to do the Dia II, that gives ya a lil break, huh?
or if they won't listen.. and it's a valid point.. and the whole pt agrees.. get a replacement.
my point is .. Help other players improve! ... it's all about fun.. sometimes weird things work.. doing things differently sometimes is more rewarding than the 2 - 300 exp you might have not gained..
ok.. I'm rambling. .that's enough
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Rinoah said:
Someone's a bit touchy.... was I talking to you? Read Nifal's post. Stop making random assumptions.
And Passions, I think that would be BS. No offense. 26 levels and you beat your RdM's numbers? Then, your RdM's gear sucks, or you didnt cap your skills.
I have, without food, without Int buffing, and NO weapon equipped, +21 Int. This, with 202 Elemental (not capped yet, just leveled) I do not get resists often. Now, if I wanna play, I toss on back up gaunts/leggings and have +27int. Now you factor in I have every Elem Staff.. Ice gives 4 int, thats +31Int, with the Ice spells enhanced 10%... please dont try and tell me thats gonna get resisted. If in a chain I get bored, I toss a nuke. They do not get resisted unless we JUST moved up to a new mob and/or I am the lowest level in the pt against IT's.
Seeing how rare that is... I will comfortably assist BlM's in nuking if mp/time allows it. the "god forbid" is ridiculous. RdM's can nuke fine with the proper attire.
This is without food, wanna play more? Brain Stew for ANOTHER 5int.. if you get resisted then, youre in the wrong area.
Shaidalyn said:
You quoted me there was nothing "random" about my assumption. Btw this reply is actually to darth i just quoted you because quoting him would make sense.
Random games? And I laugh at you saying my rdm gear sucks its twice your net worth. Its not a game its favt rdm base stats suck on elemental magic which is the main focus of whether a nuke will get resisted or not. Also why couldn't a blm nuke higher on the same spell 26 lvls lower? Oh right because of staffs ect.
I didn't say it was a complete waist but there is no reason to still have that much mp left after a full chain of mobs by the time convert is up you should of drained just enough mp out of yourself to of constantly been doing something without resting and then refresh convert cure yourself then regen. stupid rdms waist so much mp fully curing yourself when regen does just fine between battles, which might I add is the best time to convert and is very much doable with some decent time and mp managment.
There is no reason to nuke other then mb because of these reasons and only if it doest get in the way of your other duties.
sit back down now your objection has been handed to you.
P.s. Would you like a nuking contest on thinder 2? I will win and only wear your 60 cap gear lol
I didn't say it was a complete waist but there is no reason to still have that much mp left after a full chain of mobs by the time convert is up you should of drained just enough mp out of yourself to of constantly been doing something without resting and then refresh convert cure yourself then regen. stupid rdms waist so much mp fully curing yourself when regen does just fine between battles, which might I add is the best time to convert and is very much doable with some decent time and mp managment.
There is no reason to nuke other then mb because of these reasons and only if it doest get in the way of your other duties.
sit back down now your objection has been handed to you.
P.s. Would you like a nuking contest on thinder 2? I will win and only wear your 60 cap gear lol
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Shaidalyn said:
I am a Taru 75 RDM and a 73 BLM, and I am telling you there is no comparison... Perhapes you havent been to sky yet, that will open your eyes a bit and you will realize just how useless it is to nuke with RDM is . Yes you may do 300 some odd dmg but look how much MP you wasted doing it 80 - 90 % of the time all sky mobs will laugh at it.