Ok tell me why...

reply again.

Mishaela said:
If a RDM wants to DD...it's best they do it when /BLM and giving a well-timed nuke. Why?
Sword RDM = not staff swapping for enfeebs/nukes. If s/he swapped, they'd never get TP to WS, making meleeing totally pointless. And not staff-swapping = not a high-class RDM, or they'd be swapping for enfeebs/nukes to begin with....so it's a hand-in-hand sorta thing..
Click to expand...

Let me start of as saying I respect Ish, and many of the players I know that have posted here, and will bow down to their expertise as they have more experience than I. I'm here to express my opinion from what I've gained from my meager experience and knowledge.

/begin rant

I don't wanna be the one blindly defending a melee'ing rdm.. Personally, like I said before past 41 (refresh), I'm not sure an rdm really can melee in an exp pt.

As a blm, I have all my elemental staves and include the /equip in all my macroes.. even my apollo's staff for my curing. I agree, past 51, if not 41, it would be increasingly difficult to be an efficient contributor to melee dmg. As a Taru, I don't contribute much damage, and wearing my old INT gear as a /blm, I still don't do as much nuke damage as a decent blm. I have however nearly matched a couple blm's in my pt's thus far, even topping some magic bursts. I understand that the primary duties of a rdm is to enfeeble, and refresh. Backup curing in an emergency is also in there.

RDM duties include: Enfeebling, Refreshing, Debuffing the mob, Magic Bursting, and Backup curing. (in that order imo)

All I'm trying to say is, if a rdm can perform all their duties, and wants to join in the melee against a mob and they want to break the boredom of their routine.. then, where's the problem?
(note: I mean engaging a mob that doesn't perform an AOE that restricts their duty performance)
Even when they have to change weapons and lose their tp, where's the real problem?
I realize that adding TP to the mob is a downfall, however if they dispel the buff the mob uses that tp for... then why be against it?
A good player judges the situation and adapts to it... in all fields regardless of circumstance. whether it's gear swapping, or changing up the spells for the specifics of the area, mob, or party makeup.

Last night I hit 40 with a duel war/nin, rng, blm, drk, me (rdm). We didn't have to rest, and we were able to hit chain 5's consistently.
I didn't melee because I was the main healer, and enfeebler, and dispeler. That situation didn't call for it. Instead I equipped my mp & Int gear, But the next time I pt with a brd, and a whm and blm.. you can bet I may be in there with my pig poker. Honestly I wouldn't mind the brd to do so as well (in between songs).. That party would be short on melee, but wouldn't be a failed pt.. This is, of course until I get refresh, I don't know if I can juggle everything else with refresh going too.... we'll see.

My whole point is if you find a great player that can do it all (I'm not one).. are you going to hold it against them if they wanna melee? It's their gamestyle, and what they want to do.. We're all here to have fun and even a little melee damage can contribute to a faster kill. But the moment you see a pre-refresh rdm refuse to rest between mobs to save their tp... Yeah, you might want to mention something to them.

I'd like to add, I don't melee as whm or as blm. I never have, other than the handful of times I dove headfirst at a dying mob just for the sake of humor. I'm not blindly defending the mages that are insistent on being allowed to melee... goodness knows a yew wand toting blm doesn't need to be in there doing anything other than running away... but, originally years ago when I started rdm, I did so hoping to be more verstatile and utlize the skills it seemed to specialize in.

Red Mage was meant to be a frontline mage.. and who knows maybe when Blue Mage comes out, maybe people will be more comfortable with having a mage up from with the tank and melee. We shall see.

to summarize: Some people can balance the duties of their job exceedingly well, and Red Mage can and does offer some melee abilities. Let us not forget the en-spells. If a situation, allows a good rdm to join in the melee fun, don't be against it. However if you can offer a valid reason that the rdm not.. i.e. lack of focus on mage abilities, falling prey to AOE status effects they should be out of range from, lack of focus, or adding tp to a mob that has a devastating job ability.... then mention it to them, and remind them what their priorities are. If they still don't listen, then I would agree that they aren't doing their job right..... But please keep an open mind, and help people that you're teaming up with to enjoy themselves. Though SE calls our char's specialties "Jobs" don't forget we're all here to have fun.

ok... I've ranted enough.
/end rant
 
I don't know if there's any mob without a damage TP move. making the tank take bigger damage more often affect the chain.

but hey, who cares? it's all good up to the point where a rdm says "if you want refresh you should get a bard" and warps herself mid battle. don't like rdms? get a bard, 99% of the time they're just as effective and for a lot of set ups they're more effective. drop this long time dead overkilled argument, the elvaan male rdms will still melee religiously, (seems to be a trend with people attracted to elvaan male rdm to be more melee aggressive.. just something i've noticed.. not to say there aren't exceptions.) it'll still happen and nobody has ever changed their opinions on it based on a post on this flameboard, have they? don't like it? get a bard.
 
Darthyoda - At eirlier levels, I don't have too much of a problem with it...however, post-50, there's the elemental staves. And if they (RDM) don't swap between enfeebs and nukes, they're losing an entire 10%(15% if HQ staff) potency, which can matter greatly in sticking enfeebs on mobs that may be strong vs a certain element. If they melee, they either hafto gearswap staves when tossing enfeebs/nukes which thusly rids them of TP, or can stick to a sword and sacrifice the +10%/15% effectiveness they can have altogether, which is a really big hit.

So they can melee or take a 10%/15% hit to nukes and enfeebs...and RDM is naturally a much better nuker/enfeebler than a mage, it just seems silly to sacrifice that to be showy with a sword. =/
 
Mishaela said:
So they can melee or take a 10%/15% hit to nukes and enfeebs...and RDM is naturally a much better nuker/enfeebler than a mage, it just seems silly to sacrifice that to be showy with a sword. =/
Click to expand...

Misworded that. That "or" should be "but". Meh..
 
Seriously, stop with the "zOMG! Mobs get more TP!" argument already as it WON'T FRIGGIN' MATTER if the mob have 10% more TP during the entire fight. Don't force me to post the TP gain of mobs once again... I've already done it 5 times, and I really don't feel liek doing it again.

Let's make a situation. lvl 52 in Kuftal Tunnel against crabs. WHM keeps barwatera up, making the AoE move do close to 0 damage, although causing STR-down (which won't affect the RDM too much, it actually helps it in this case). The RDM have lots of different gear, all H.Q elemental staves, and a lot of melee gear, so he can hit about 50% of the time. He is wielding a low-delay low-damage dagger, a low level one. This makes him hit for 0 every time, and he always keeps Enthunder on.

This makes him hit for 15 damage or so each hit without giving the mob any TP, what so ever. Now, privided he performs his duties just fine (as in, always refreshes, never misses a refresh, and always enfeeble and make them stick), why can't he melee? He won't have time to /heal, since a RDM rarely have time to /heal for 20 sec during a fight, tell me exactly what it is that forbids the RDM to melee in this situation? Because any damaging spell he casts will give the mob 10% TP, and that's a big no-no in your book (and RDMes get resisted quite a lot since they have a low elemental magic skill).

There is no reason for the RDM not to melee in this situation, he uses a lot of /equip macroes, and have several sets of gear. So in-between his duties he might aswell melee. Saing he can't melee because he can /heal instead is about the most stupid thing you can do since that will delay his refreshes and enfeebles more then it will while he's meleeing.
 
Mishaela, it won't matter if they lose the TP they gain, as they are still mages and not melees. Their TP won't matter. Saying they can't melee because they need to swap macros, making them lose their TP is not an argument.
 
One of the main reasons you melee is so you can use a weapon skill. Saying that losing your TP is not a valid reason is pretty dumb, especially when the Paladin is doing more damage per hit than you. Also, a decent Paladin can put out fair numbers on his weapon skills. Saying a Paladin shouldn't melee is like saying a Thief shouldn't melee.

Your damage as a melee is not significant in a standard EXP party. You don't do enough damage, and if you're meleeing, chances are you don't use gear swap macros for spells, anyway. And if you do, you defeat any reason you would melee (your Damage per Hit is crappy, and the only thing that might save you is a weapon skill - but wait! Red Mages don't have access to great weapon skills from the sword realm for a very long time). If you want to be a melee DD and cast spells, either be a Dark Knight, Paladin, Beastmaster, or Ninja. All others can gtfo.
 
Using the time it takes to kill a monster to melee as a RDM, I think I can put that minimal damage I can potentially deal into resting 2-3 ticks with my Dark Staff for 50 odd MP to extend the chain and reduce downtime.
 
Enspells don't wear on weaponswap? Learn something new every day...


And I don't believe the whole "RDM never have time to rest" crap. If they tossed out every enfeeb every fight, and refreshed, lets say three mages including themself, on that alone they'd be frying 600mp+ in one chain 5 easily.

Slow/Para/Gravity - 45mp. Another 16 if Silence is needed. Also ignoring Blind. Dispel 1-3 times per fight unless you're fighting some sortof Beastman (and even then you'd be removing WHM Beastmen buffs). Also Refresh/Haste cycle. Granted, Slow/Para/Blind can also be covered by a NIN (or to a less effective extent, WHM)

Even with a WHM helping on Haste cycle you're prone to burning 300mp per 2 fights, not counting any nukes or Bio/Dia. I don't think keeping Refresh on yourself is gonna keep you going til that 10minute Convert mark unless you're in a cannon duo'd with a BRD, and even then you'd needto have a pretty deep MP pool to support that..
 
After 75 levels of it, I can tell you it's quite possible to do all that without resting. RDMs - good ones - are masters at MP management. You'll almost never have to spam Dispel that much either.
 
Neyla said:
After 75 levels of it, I can tell you it's quite possible to do all that without resting. RDMs - good ones - are masters at MP management. You'll almost never have to spam Dispel that much either.
Click to expand...

There's also a pretty big difference between 75 parties which can rip thru virtually any common-pop mob in the game with a single SC vs a 52 party, but meh. I'll just shut up.
 
I could do it in the 60s and I don't do the roaming parties people love so much in Sky. It's not that terribly difficult.
 
Mishaela said:
Enspells don't wear on weaponswap? Learn something new every day...


And I don't believe the whole "RDM never have time to rest" crap. If they tossed out every enfeeb every fight, and refreshed, lets say three mages including themself, on that alone they'd be frying 600mp+ in one chain 5 easily.

Slow/Para/Gravity - 45mp. Another 16 if Silence is needed. Also ignoring Blind. Dispel 1-3 times per fight unless you're fighting some sortof Beastman (and even then you'd be removing WHM Beastmen buffs). Also Refresh/Haste cycle. Granted, Slow/Para/Blind can also be covered by a NIN (or to a less effective extent, WHM)

Even with a WHM helping on Haste cycle you're prone to burning 300mp per 2 fights, not counting any nukes or Bio/Dia. I don't think keeping Refresh on yourself is gonna keep you going til that 10minute Convert mark unless you're in a cannon duo'd with a BRD, and even then you'd needto have a pretty deep MP pool to support that..
Click to expand...

I hate to disagree but...
Paralyze: 6
Slow: 15
Blind: 5
Thats 27 mp.. 9 ticks of refresh.
any other debuffs are a GIFT.. Gravity is situational, Silence, situational, Dispel, situational. If you need dispel HIGH chance you can Aspir.
I don't Bio, the BLM does. I don't Dia, the WHM does. I don't -ever- haste, the WHM has a job too. I don't cure, WHM job. I don't Poison, BLM job.
I do however toss up Stoneskin: 29mp and Refresh on myself: 40mp
So in the beginning of a fight I toss out 96mp.(112 if mage) which is a max of.... 38 ticks of refresh. Refresh lasts 40 ticks.
Now lets add in a Blm, Whm, and say.. Pld. Theres 120mp.. Now I only cast stoneskin once every 3-4 fights. (unless AoE strikes, which is not common enough to lower my SS thus far) so in a Chain 5, thats 6 kills.
AT MOST: I spend 1392 MP. during this time I will have recovered 720 via refresh, thats 672. I am not a Taru, so thats 80mp more than I have.. Darn.. OH WAIT!
if I am silencing that much, the mob must have MP. My average Aspir on a VT is 120-140 without Elem Seal. Now, lets say we have a GOOD pt and I only do this once every 2 fights. 6 fights, 130(average) per fight, puts me up 780mp
Hmm.. seems I have an excess of 108 mp.

This is without resists/things wearing but... 108 mp is PLENTY to cover a few recasts and maybe some dispels.. not to mention I can stop ANY time and pick up some MP by resting.

and FYI.. I keep up with pld's damage/swing, and I swing 1.5x more than they do.. so dont try saying they can out melee us. The only thing they have, is their /war WS's (like Vorpal Blade)
(This is pre 65.. after this, according to a few people, RdM do better cause of no rest, always moving..)
Red Mages know how to save MP.
 
I wouldn't call Gravity situational. That's a free ACC bonus to the frontline fighters because it reduces mob evasion, plus it gives the tank a few moments to resecure hate if your BLM or WHM goes off the deep end and manages to pull hate.
 
I've tried.. should I use an Elem staff? Lately, if it lands, it lasts all of 15-20 seconds.. and the recast is awful.....
 
Gravity can be a bitch. I'll give you that. Use your Wind Staff and best INT/enfeebling gear. At least try to land it at the start. If it's resisted or wears off fast, there's not much you can do due to the long recast timer.
 
Shaidalyn said:
My average Aspir on a VT is 120-140 without Elem Seal.
Click to expand...

Most of your numbers make sense, but I really really question this one. I just have a hard time believing that Rdm has higher aspir average than Blm and Drk.
 
Shaidalyn said:
I hate to disagree but...
Paralyze: 6
Slow: 15
Blind: 5
Thats 27 mp.. 9 ticks of refresh.
any other debuffs are a GIFT.. Gravity is situational, Silence, situational, Dispel, situational. If you need dispel HIGH chance you can Aspir.
I don't Bio, the BLM does. I don't Dia, the WHM does. I don't -ever- haste, the WHM has a job too. I don't cure, WHM job. I don't Poison, BLM job.
I do however toss up Stoneskin: 29mp and Refresh on myself: 40mp
So in the beginning of a fight I toss out 96mp.(112 if mage) which is a max of.... 38 ticks of refresh. Refresh lasts 40 ticks.
Now lets add in a Blm, Whm, and say.. Pld. Theres 120mp.. Now I only cast stoneskin once every 3-4 fights. (unless AoE strikes, which is not common enough to lower my SS thus far) so in a Chain 5, thats 6 kills.
AT MOST: I spend 1392 MP. during this time I will have recovered 720 via refresh, thats 672. I am not a Taru, so thats 80mp more than I have.. Darn.. OH WAIT!
if I am silencing that much, the mob must have MP. My average Aspir on a VT is 120-140 without Elem Seal. Now, lets say we have a GOOD pt and I only do this once every 2 fights. 6 fights, 130(average) per fight, puts me up 780mp
Hmm.. seems I have an excess of 108 mp.

This is without resists/things wearing but... 108 mp is PLENTY to cover a few recasts and maybe some dispels.. not to mention I can stop ANY time and pick up some MP by resting.

and FYI.. I keep up with pld's damage/swing, and I swing 1.5x more than they do.. so dont try saying they can out melee us. The only thing they have, is their /war WS's (like Vorpal Blade)
(This is pre 65.. after this, according to a few people, RdM do better cause of no rest, always moving..)
Red Mages know how to save MP.
Click to expand...


So you do 3 debuffs and 3 refreshes.
Wow, you sound like the lousiest rdm ever.
You wont cure cause thats the whm's job?
You wont haste cause that's the whm's job?
You wont dia II cause thats the whm's job?
You dont poison cause that's blms job?
You wont bio cause thats the blm's job?
WTF is wrong with you?
But you do melee even that thats the melees job?

Now here is how it is.
Your a rdm, you play a supportrole in a exp pty.
Your highest skill is enhancing magic and enfeebling
magic. Meaning that enhancing magic and enfeebling
magic is primarily your job, not the whm or blm.

Now lets see, last i checked, dia and poison was
enfeebling magic wich puts that as your job, haste
would be enhancing magic, so thats yours to.
Now typically a whm will make sure that the tank is
always hasted and the rdm takes care of the melee as
good as they can. Meaning that a good rdm will keep
the melees hasted at all times.

And as for gravity, it really isnt situational, you need to
research your spells. I'll do thisone for you though, to get
you started.

"Gravity: Reduces an enemy's evasion and lowers its movement speed."

See the part about reducing evasion? Thats nice and dandy for a
melee you see. That means they can build tp faster, and make that
SC faster and kill faster. I also notice you sub blm, but dont even
plan on sparing some mp for a mb. So i take it you really only want
/blm so you can help the party less and do useless melee more?

I'll tell you what. I'll let the whm do the 3 enfeebles you ARE willing
to do and invite a summoner instead. You are a waste of space.
 
another reply

Neyla said:
After 75 levels of it, I can tell you it's quite possible to do all that without resting. RDMs - good ones - are masters at MP management. You'll almost never have to spam Dispel that much either.
Click to expand...

Hey Neyla!

I'm firmly convinced that a good rdm can manage all their abilities and judge a situation wether they can melee or not. I'm not a big fan of the giving tp mob excuse, but every player regardless of job should be able to adapt to a situation. If they have the mp, and focus to add melee to their lst of activities in a fight. So be it. They're the ones playing that job, let them do their thing. even without refresh thus far as a rdm I rarely run out of mp during a fight unless someting drastic happens and the whm dries up. Then spam curing + nukes, mb'ing and recasting enfeebles can run me low, but I usually still have something left over after the fight.. and now that I have convert... ooooooooh.... oh and to continue the argument.. if you're going to need to do convert, then yes. you'll need to disengage and run out of aoe range.

my point is still there are situations that a good rdm can do all of their duties, and still do a lil melee damage, and I think it's unfair to put that stigma on all rdm's that they should never melee in an exp or whatever fight.
 
Darth, get to 70 so you can start R3ing me in Dynamis. Lazy taru.
 
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